Updated Seth Appert Hired as Amerks HC/Adam Mair and Mike Weber Named Asst Coaches

[Weave]

This comment fits here as well I think.

This isn’t an inspiring hire.  It’s also not really indicative of anything else, positive or negative Either.  Good luck, Seth.  The fans need it.

Skepticism seems understandable to me given our past history with these types of hires.  We’ve certainly dipped into this well in the past.

[steveoath]

For those that saw the amerks regularly...

How did Taylor deploy vets Vs prospects? Were prospects given appropriate ice time to aid development or did he use established AHLers in order to win?

[inkman]

2 hours ago, steveoath said:

For those that saw the amerks regularly...

How did Taylor deploy vets Vs prospects? Were prospects given appropriate ice time to aid development or did he use established AHLers in order to win?

He played the prospects as much as you'd want a coach to.  Borgen got top pairing minutes, Mitts got top line minutes.  Bryson's minutes escalated as the season wore on.  He definitely knew how to mix in the vets with the rookies to put a good product on the ice.  It really makes you question the orgs direction getting rid of Chris Taylor.  

[In The Buff]

I understand why lots of fans are saying lets give these hires a chance, i mean really thats the only thing we can do.. we're powerless in this whole equation.

I used to be optimistic about our player transactions & administrative or coaching changes... thinking this time it'll be different. But it seems we've missed a lot more often than hit on these things during this Dark Age of Sabres history. And as we approach the prospect of a decade missing the playoffs, until something changes or the results are improved, it'll be hard for me to be optimistic about any of these moves.

I understand why we've hired people our owners are familiar with & i wish Matt & Seth & Kevyn all the luck in the world. History shows they'll need it, and maybe things will work out great. I mean I don't think we're even that far away from where we wanna be. But nothing about these guys inspires me or gives me any more hope other than a broken clock is right twice a day.... we gotta get it right one of these times.

[Ogre]

10 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

general gist

This guy?

Sorry. The Revolutionary War was a huge pastime as a boy and how often do you get to give a guy like Mordecai a shout out?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordecai_Gist
 

Dude named his children Independent and States.  That’s hardcore.

[Ogre]

6 hours ago, inkman said:

It really makes you question the orgs direction getting rid of Chris Taylor. 

Doesn’t make any sense. Taylor was getting more from the young guys than any other coach from the last ten years. Dineen also did a good job developing youth.

Oh well. It was fun winning. 

[LabattBlue]

The Sabres deserve all the criticism they get. Hire a guy to be your AHL HC without a day of coaching experience at the professional level, they deserve to get slammed...

especially by Amerks fans. 
 

The “benefit of the doubt” cup has long run dry. 

Edited August 16, 2020 by LabattBlue

[Curt]

42 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

The Sabres deserve all the criticism they get. Hire a guy to be your AHL HC without a day of coaching experience at the professional level, they deserve to get slammed...

especially by Amerks fans. 
 

The “benefit of the doubt” cup has long run dry. 

What pro level head coaching experience is below AHL?  Is a guy with experience as an AHL assistant really a super desirable hire?  Is that better than lots of experience as a HC at the NCAA level?

Don't a majority of AHL coaches come from the junior ranks?  When Taylor was hired, he didn’t have a day of head coaching experience at the junior or pro level, just a couple years as an AHL assistant.  People seem to think he was pretty good.

[shrader]

That program has been sending a ton of coaches to the pro ranks over the years. Rolston, John Hynes, David Quinn. From there to the AHL is probably the next natural progression for those guys. 

[PerreaultForever]

To me this is another inexperienced cheap hire. Guys who are glad for the promotion so to speak and will be maleable to the powers that be but will all require time and a learning curve to succeed at this higher level. It is clear that very soon there will not be a single guy with solid NHL experience in our management and coaching structure. 

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

To me this is another inexperienced cheap hire. Guys who are glad for the promotion so to speak and will be maleable to the powers that be but will all require time and a learning curve to succeed at this higher level. It is clear that very soon there will not be a single guy with solid NHL experience in our management and coaching structure. 

He has tons of experience, is it just because he wasn't an AHL coach or assistant before? I don't understand this line of thinking, you make it sound like they hired some nobody off the street who's never coached at a high level before. 

[Two or less]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

To me this is another inexperienced cheap hire. Guys who are glad for the promotion so to speak and will be maleable to the powers that be but will all require time and a learning curve to succeed at this higher level. It is clear that very soon there will not be a single guy with solid NHL experience in our management and coaching structure. 

At the end of the day the only thing that will make fans happy is results. Everyone is upset about Taylor being let go but he didn't exactly come here with a ton of experience. He went from playing to development coach to assistant in the Penguins AHL system to Amerks head coach. And Taylor was hired for the same reasons why Adams is getting blasted for hiring his "own guys". Taylor had a good relationship with Jbots.

I much rather they take a chance on a new guy with a pedigree in development then give some guy whos been hired 5 times but had some success. I think that its much more likely you will find the next Jon Cooper that way.

Also, for them to be "cheap", it was speculated by the fans that with next season being uncertain still, they wouldn't hire a coach right away to save some money. Now they hire a coach in mid August with no hockey in sight and still people say their cheap.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

He has tons of experience, is it just because he wasn't an AHL coach or assistant before? I don't understand this line of thinking, you make it sound like they hired some nobody off the street who's never coached at a high level before. 

What I don't understand is why the Taylor staff was fired in the first place? The younger players got the requisite playing time that facilitated their development. And they were playing with selected veteran players who knew that one of their primary roles was to develop the younger players on the roster. At the AHL level there is a delicate balance between developing players and competing. These tasks are not mutually exclusive as they are inextricably linked. Without question the Taylor coaching staff was adept at maintaining that delicate and critical balance. 

I don't believe that the complete change in the AHL will make a significant difference. And I don't believe that it was necessary. Firing in toto a highly functioning staff of the previous administration and replacing them with people you are acquainted with is a classic definition of cronyism. And that makes me wary. 

[In The Buff]

I don't understand why Taylor was let go either. Besides from developing & working with a bunch of players that would come thru there, before he coached the Amerks, they had missed the playoffs 3 consecutive years. Botts hires Taylor & coincidentally they make the playoffs 2 years straight & were poised to go a 3rd time. His record was a combined 116-65-20-13 in 214 games. Hard to say he was fired for poor performance imo. What he was fired for, is anyone's guess. 

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, In The Buff said:

I don't understand why Taylor was let go either. Besides from developing & working with a bunch of players that would come thru there, before he coached the Amerks, they had missed the playoffs 3 consecutive years. Botts hires Taylor & coincidentally they make the playoffs 2 years straight & were poised to go a 3rd time. His record was a combined 116-65-20-13 in 214 games. Hard to say he was fired for poor performance imo. What he was fired for, is anyone's guess. 

I’m not arguing in support of Taylor’s firing, I’m on the record as liking him.

But there is a side here no one is talking about.

Taylor was given a Cadillac of AHL rosters, with a huge budget, stuffed full of high-price proven AHL vets, and buckets of depth. Guys like Redmond, Blackwell, Porter, Griffith, Criscuolo, Fedun, Tennyson, O’Regan, Nelson, Simpson, Leier, Wilson, Hammond, Dea, Lazar, Gilmour... I don’t have AHL salary numbers, but they were run like a Pre-cap Rangers.

His teams did well in the regular season, but never won a division title or even a playoff game.

He also was charged with developing prospects like Fasching, Baptiste, Bailey, Ullmark, Nylander, Guhle, Malone, Borgen, Olofsson,CJ Smith, Asplund, Elie, Ogilvie, Pilut, Bryson, Fitzgerald, Hickey...

We didn’t see a ton of player development under his watch either.

Not blaming, or saying he deserved to be fired. Am saying his “success” is only relative to the depleted expectations of our fanbase.

Edited August 16, 2020 by dudacek

[LTS]

On 8/14/2020 at 7:50 PM, inkman said:

They did this with Rolston, arguably the darkest hour of the Amerks franchise.  They will be terrible again.  

Yes.. because this then that.

On 8/15/2020 at 9:58 AM, inkman said:

 

Sorry.  History has taught us.  Hiring these development guys = cultural shift to prospects with no regard to winning in the AHL.  Even though this has been proven time and time again to provide a toxic, losing culture that players can't get away from fast enough.  

It has?  Time and time again?  I mean, I've heard "Ron Rolston" that's it.  Is there more here?  I'm legitimately wondering.  In addition, have times changed?  The USNTDP has had its most success over the past 10-15 years with players being drafted... would that not indicate that they are doing something right?

 

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I’m not arguing is support of Taylor’s firing, I’m on the record as liking him.

But there is a side here no one is talking about.

Taylor was given a Cadillac of AHL rosters, with a huge budget, stuffed full of high-price proven AHL vets, and buckets of depth. Guys like Redmond, Blackwell, Porter, Griffith, Criscuolo, Fedun, Tennyson, O’Regan, Nelson, Simpson, Leier, Wilson, Hammond, Dea, Lazar, Gilmour... I don’t have AHL salary numbers, but they were run like a Pre-cap Rangers.

His teams did well in the regular season, but never won a division title or even a playoff game.

He also was charged with developing prospects like Fasching, Baptiste, Bailey, Ullmark, Nylander, Guhle, Malone, Borgen, Olofsson,CJ Smith, Asplund, Elie, Ogilvie, Pilut, Bryson, Fitzgerald, Hickey...

We didn’t see a ton of player development under his watch either.

Not blaming, or saying he deserved to be fired. Am saying his “success” is only relative to the depleted expectations of our fanbase.

With respect to the prospects that you listed which players did the former staff mishandle and crimp their potential? Sometimes players are who they reveal themselves to be. In my view non of the players that you listed played below their talent level. And non of the players who were on your list and were traded ended up making a dramatic leap forward after changing organizations. 

[Two or less]

1 hour ago, In The Buff said:

I don't understand why Taylor was let go either. Besides from developing & working with a bunch of players that would come thru there, before he coached the Amerks, they had missed the playoffs 3 consecutive years. Botts hires Taylor & coincidentally they make the playoffs 2 years straight & were poised to go a 3rd time. His record was a combined 116-65-20-13 in 214 games. Hard to say he was fired for poor performance imo. What he was fired for, is anyone's guess. 

Maybe he just didn't fit philosophically? Kreuger holds coaching seminars with all the coaches from Rochester and even Cincinnati and development coaches and maybe during one of his many talks with Adams he just mentioned all the things he disliked with Taylor?

[inkman]

1 hour ago, LTS said:

Yes.. because this then that.

It has?  Time and time again?  I mean, I've heard "Ron Rolston" that's it.  Is there more here?  I'm legitimately wondering.  In addition, have times changed?  The USNTDP has had its most success over the past 10-15 years with players being drafted... would that not indicate that they are doing something right?

 

I'm referring to going prospect heavy.  The coach won't matter much especially since the prospect pool is as weak as it's been in years.  

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

With respect to the prospects that you listed which players did the former staff mishandle and crimp their potential? Sometimes players are who they reveal themselves to be. In my view non of the players that you listed played below their talent level. And non of the players who were on your list and were traded ended up making a dramatic leap forward after changing organizations. 

As with a lot of things we talk about, this is a question we don’t have enough information to answer. Nature or nurture.

I expected Guhle and Nylander to be NHL players. I thought Fasching, Baptise, Bailey, Olofsson and Asplund had enough raw material that they could be. Tim Murray agreed with me, for whatever that’s worth. Only one of those players is an NHL player. Nylander looks like he might be too, but not because of Buffalo. None of the other (to my mind) longer shots made it either.

I’m not blaming Taylor for that, but I can’t absolve him for it either.

Edited August 16, 2020 by dudacek

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’m not arguing in support of Taylor’s firing, I’m on the record as liking him.

But there is a side here no one is talking about.

Taylor was given a Cadillac of AHL rosters, with a huge budget, stuffed full of high-price proven AHL vets, and buckets of depth. Guys like Redmond, Blackwell, Porter, Griffith, Criscuolo, Fedun, Tennyson, O’Regan, Nelson, Simpson, Leier, Wilson, Hammond, Dea, Lazar, Gilmour... I don’t have AHL salary numbers, but they were run like a Pre-cap Rangers.

His teams did well in the regular season, but never won a division title or even a playoff game.

He also was charged with developing prospects like Fasching, Baptiste, Bailey, Ullmark, Nylander, Guhle, Malone, Borgen, Olofsson,CJ Smith, Asplund, Elie, Ogilvie, Pilut, Bryson, Fitzgerald, Hickey...

We didn’t see a ton of player development under his watch either.

Not blaming, or saying he deserved to be fired. Am saying his “success” is only relative to the depleted expectations of our fanbase.

It's a good point. The team amounted to jack squat in the playoffs. I don't want to hear about running into a hot goalie. 

[In The Buff]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’m not arguing in support of Taylor’s firing, I’m on the record as liking him.

But there is a side here no one is talking about.

Taylor was given a Cadillac of AHL rosters, with a huge budget, stuffed full of high-price proven AHL vets, and buckets of depth. Guys like Redmond, Blackwell, Porter, Griffith, Criscuolo, Fedun, Tennyson, O’Regan, Nelson, Simpson, Leier, Wilson, Hammond, Dea, Lazar, Gilmour... I don’t have AHL salary numbers, but they were run like a Pre-cap Rangers.

His teams did well in the regular season, but never won a division title or even a playoff game.

He also was charged with developing prospects like Fasching, Baptiste, Bailey, Ullmark, Nylander, Guhle, Malone, Borgen, Olofsson,CJ Smith, Asplund, Elie, Ogilvie, Pilut, Bryson, Fitzgerald, Hickey...

We didn’t see a ton of player development under his watch either.

Not blaming, or saying he deserved to be fired. Am saying his “success” is only relative to the depleted expectations of our fanbase.

I see your point & i even agree with part of it. And yes the thinking with adding the veterans was that it'd help in turning around the culture there & aid in developing our players & in large part I'd say it worked. But your listing of prospects also speaks positively on Taylor because a bunch of those players have developed nicely or appear to be on the right path. Of course some of the players that have made it have been dealt to other teams & continue to play there & not here. Those that haven't developed have been shown not to be anything special with our franchise or any other or the jury is still out. Maybe those players are just what they are? You know, the Faschings, Baptiste's, Baileys, etc. But there are plenty of players that have come thru Roch & developed into the NHL.

Yanno, we talk here regularly about our lack of good NHL ready prospects in the pipeline. I really don't know what else we expect with what we've had to work with. Its not like Taylor is the one who does the drafting or crafts the roster.

As for not winning in the playoffs, yeah thats disappointing for sure. Last year we ran into a Toronto team that not only shut us out in the series but they shut out Cleveland as well. But to use their lack of winning a playoff series as a reason for termination seems suspect to me. (Even though thats not quite what you're saying) The Bills have lost their 2 past playoff games,  so is their coach on the hotseat too? I personally just don't think that was really a determining factor.

I honestly just don't see his firing as performance based, given how everything unfolded. Even Jbotts firing doesnt appear to be 100% performance based given the timeline of events & what happened (even though it should've been & was a factor). So i'm guessing when The Pegs decided to fire everyone that meant Taylor too so they could have a clean slate. Maybe it was even a cost savings measure too. Any guesses though are just that, guesses.

Btw i just saw this video clip of Appert having to be held back during a brawl when he was coaching at RPI. Looks like he has a bit of Lindy Ruff in him haha

 

[Broken Ankles]

On 8/14/2020 at 4:50 PM, inkman said:

They did this with Rolston, arguably the darkest hour of the Amerks franchise.  They will be terrible again.  

Serious question.   Why is Ron Rolston the darkest hour for the Amerks?  I get he was not qualified for the NHL.  The Kay Stevenson of Buffalo head coaches.   The 2011-13 teams posted better records than the teams in the next 4 years and thee coaches.  I know nothing of him other than reading his resume on Providence Colleges website.

[inkman]

4 hours ago, inkman said:

I'm referring to going prospect heavy.  The coach won't matter much especially since the prospect pool is as weak as it's been in years.  

 

57 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

Serious question.   Why is Ron Rolston the darkest hour for the Amerks?  I get he was not qualified for the NHL.  The Kay Stevenson of Buffalo head coaches.   The 2011-13 teams posted better records than the teams in the next 4 years and thee coaches.  I know nothing of him other than reading his resume on Providence Colleges website.

 

[msw2112]

On 8/15/2020 at 11:34 AM, In The Buff said:

I understand why lots of fans are saying lets give these hires a chance, i mean really thats the only thing we can do.. we're powerless in this whole equation.

I used to be optimistic about our player transactions & administrative or coaching changes... thinking this time it'll be different. But it seems we've missed a lot more often than hit on these things during this Dark Age of Sabres history. And as we approach the prospect of a decade missing the playoffs, until something changes or the results are improved, it'll be hard for me to be optimistic about any of these moves.

I understand why we've hired people our owners are familiar with & i wish Matt & Seth & Kevyn all the luck in the world. History shows they'll need it, and maybe things will work out great. I mean I don't think we're even that far away from where we wanna be. But nothing about these guys inspires me or gives me any more hope other than a broken clock is right twice a day.... we gotta get it right one of these times.

I'm one of the people who have been saying "give the new regime a chance" because we really have no idea how well they will do.  No sense bashing them until/unless they botch it.  I also agree with you that we don't have a whole lot of control over the situation either, so we have no choice but to let it play out.  My family was a season ticket holder for many years, but we are all living out of the Buffalo area now, so we really have no control.  Current season ticket holders have some power - the power to walk away until they are satisfied with the course of the organization.  As a glutton for punishment, I'd probably stick it out and see if this was one of the times the broken clock was right.  Great metaphor.