So #8

[Flashsabre]

20 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The Kings have the best group of forward prospects in the league; from what I've seen, it's not particularly close.

The statement being debated is whether our forward pipeline is "near empty".

Compare our top five to the teams who are just ahead of us in the NHL pecking order, the eight who lost in the qualifying round:

• Minnesota: Kaprizov, Boldy, Khovanov, Firstov, Hentges
• Nashville: Tolvanen, Tomasino, Trenin, Afanasyev, Pitlick
• Winnipeg: Vesalainen, Harkins, Smith, Spacek, Blaisdell
• Edmonton: Lavoie, Benson, McLeod, Rasinen, Maksimov
• Pittsburgh; Poulin, Legare, Hallinder, O'Connor, Puustinen
• NY Rangers: Kravtsov, Barron, Pajuniemi, Henriksson, Aaltonen
• Toronto: Robertson, Bracco, Abramov, Der-Arguchintsev
• Florida: Denisenko, Tippett, Heponiemi, Noel, Hutsko
• Buffalo: Cozens, Mittelstadt, Thompson, Asplund, Ruotsalainen

Can we really say we are significantly behind that pack? Cozens certainly challenges for the top player of the overall group. Mittelstadt and Thompson stack up well against the other 2s and 3s. Most of us have never heard of any of the 4s and 5s.

I think our forward group needs improvement. But the idea that it is a gaping black hole is overrated once you start looking around. It really comes down to whether or not you've written off Tage and Casey.

For years and years I have watched people list one teams prospects and declare them on the verge of a dynasty. 9 times out of 10 most of the prospects never turn out to be anything.  Prospects are nothing until they actually make an impact at the NHL level.  
 

They are all lotto tickets.  The more you have the better but there are no guarantees.  Yes, the Sabres could use some more but they also need some impact NHL players.  They can’t go two more years without the playoffs.

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Yes. Several of the teams you list here are Playoff teams. Several others are just about to start a rebuild so I am not surprised they don't have forward depth. The only outlier I see is maybe Winnipeg but for sure Florida which is a terribly run team. We have been rebuilding since 2014 and our top 6 only has 3 players we drafted in it and 1 if a lucky 7th rounder. 

We aren't talking about anything other than our current prospect depth up front.

None of those teams — 1/4 of the league — have a significantly better list of five players than the Sabres. Some are clearly worse.

I can do the next tier — Calgary, Columbus, St. Louis, Arizona, Chicago, Montreal, Washington and Carolina — and I suspect the results won't be significantly different.

Our group is mediocre compared to the league, not terrible.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

We aren't talking about anything other than our current prospect depth up front.

None of those teams — 1/4 of the league — have a significantly better list of five players than the Sabres. Some are clearly worse.

I can do the next tier — Calgary, Columbus, St. Louis, Arizona, Chicago, Montreal, Washington and Carolina — and I suspect the results won't be significantly different.

Our group is mediocre compared to the league, not terrible.

Our group is not good enough for the amount of picks and the placement of those picks within the draft. We have drafted higher for longer than almost all the other teams and have a Eichel and Sam basically to show for it. That is sad. 

[dudacek]

12 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Our group is not good enough for the amount of picks and the placement of those picks within the draft. We have drafted higher for longer than almost all the other teams and have a Eichel and Sam basically to show for it. That is sad. 

Truth.

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Truth.

Maybe that is more what I am trying to say and I have been failing at saying it. 

[Eleven]

7 hours ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

Dude! No sleep, you don't wanna stress your body out too much

The insomnia is real.

9 hours ago, SwampD said:

2003 sucked. There were no playoffs then, or the year before.

Yeah but 2001 was recent enough that we weren't so rabid.

[LGR4GM]

On a completely different note:

https://www.nhl.com/devils/news/draft-jake-sanderson-profile/c-318737594

Keep in mind that NJD have other first round picks and they may opt to take Raymond/Holtz and hope that Sanderson is there in the mid teens. They hold, I think the 18th pick and the 20th? maybe. So they could also package those to move up. Or they could not draft him at all!

This Mock makes a ton of sense to my brain

https://www.draftsite.com/nhl/mock-draft/2020/

1. Lafrienere
2. Byfield
3. Stutzle
4. Perfetti
5. Raymond
6. Drysdale
7. Holtz
8. Rossi

[dudacek]

10 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

On a completely different note:

https://www.nhl.com/devils/news/draft-jake-sanderson-profile/c-318737594

Keep in mind that NJD have other first round picks and they may opt to take Raymond/Holtz and hope that Sanderson is there in the mid teens. They hold, I think the 18th pick and the 20th? maybe. So they could also package those to move up. Or they could not draft him at all!

This Mock makes a ton of sense to my brain

https://www.draftsite.com/nhl/mock-draft/2020/

1. Lafrienere
2. Byfield
3. Stutzle
4. Perfetti
5. Raymond
6. Drysdale
7. Holtz
8. Rossi

I think Rossi is very much within our reach. And I think he represents the best-case scenario in the minds of Adams and his team.

He just seems to represent what Adams is preaching, and I also think he's Ralph's type as well.

Assuming Perfetti to Detroit, I don't see Ottawa grabbing a second centre at five, or Jersey grabbing Rossi with Hughes and Hischier in tow.

So all we need is Anaheim to prefer someone else.

[LGR4GM]

Rumor is Anaheim wants a defender

https://thehockeywriters.com/anaheim-ducks-2020-draft-targets-jamie-drysdale/

[Brawndo]

For comparison here is where the Sabres drafted compared to the Kings from 2016-2019 in the First and Second Rounds

The Sabres 

2016 8, 33

2017 8, 37

2018 1, 32

2019 7, 31

 

LA 

2016 51

2017 11, 41

2018 20, 51

2019 5, 22, 33

Based on this alone the Sabres should have a deeper prospect pool 

 

[DarthEbriate]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Rumor is Anaheim wants a defender

https://thehockeywriters.com/anaheim-ducks-2020-draft-targets-jamie-drysdale/

I'd think that means they have to leapfrog Ottawa once, if not twice.

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

I'd think that means they have to leapfrog Ottawa once, if not twice.

Ottawa isn't taking Drysdale at 3. 

[DarthEbriate]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Ottawa isn't taking Drysdale at 3. 

Agreed, I think they take Stutzle. But --- they may have him and the next forward closely ranked, and rather than risk losing Drysdale to Detroit (or a trade up with Detroit), they could elect to take the top D, and then the next-best forward at 5.

[dudacek]

57 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

For comparison here is where the Sabres drafted compared to the Kings from 2016-2019 in the First and Second Rounds

The Sabres 

2016 8, 33

2017 8, 37

2018 1, 32

2019 7, 31

 

LA 

2016 51

2017 11, 41

2018 20, 51

2019 5, 22, 33

Based on this alone the Sabres should have a deeper prospect pool 

 

Agree with your point.

That said, I wouldn't trade the Sabres group (Cozens, Johnson, Dahlin, Samuelsson, Mittelstadt, Davidsson, Nylander, Asplund, plus 2017 #54 Lukkonnen) for the Kings (Turcotte, Bjornfot, Kaliyev, Kupari, Thomas, Vilardi, Anderson-Dolan, Clague, plus 2019 #50 Fagemo).

Would you?

Including Dahlin and Jokiharju in with Sabres prospects certainly changes the perspective. The Kings have yet to graduate anyone from those four drafts.

[IKnowPhysics]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Rumor is Anaheim wants a defender

https://thehockeywriters.com/anaheim-ducks-2020-draft-targets-jamie-drysdale/

Now we just need someone to bite on Sanderson.

[IKnowPhysics]

On 8/14/2020 at 11:01 PM, IKnowPhysics said:

If [Drysdale and Sanderson are taken before 8], then you'd have at least two of the following available, if Lafreniere, Byfield, and Stutzle are off the board: Raymond, Rossi, Perfetti, and Holtz.  Which means you would be guaranteed one of Raymond, Rossi, or Perfetti.  Nice.

 

[DarthEbriate]

17 hours ago, dudacek said:

I see this all the time, but is is actually true?

• We have a 19-year-old 8th overall pick centre who played on the first line for a gold medal junior team and is ranked among the top prospects outside the NHL and was among the highest points per game in the WHL.
• We have a 21-year-old 8th overall pick centre who put up 23 points in 27 games as an AHL rookie after a slow start, and just 2 years ago was ranked among the top prospects outside the NHL
• We have a 22-year-old 6'6" 225-pound 26th-overall pick RW who scored 14 goals and 25 points over 27 games in the minors before a shoulder injury halted his progress.
• We have a 22-year-old 33rd-overall pick centre who plays a two-way game, who slipped back a step after looking to be on the verge after putting up close to a point per game in the 2nd half of his AHL rookie season the previous year.
• And we have a 22-year-old undrafted two-way centre who was among just a half-dozen players in the Finnish Elite league to average nearly a point a game.

It's like people minimize how many teams don't have a Dylan, reject the reality that Tage and Casey are still prospects in the pipeline, and forget that Arttu and Rasmus3 exist. It's not like we're flush with young forwards, but 5 guys not on the team with a reasonable chance of making the team is OK relative to the league, no?

Truth is a point of view, Anakin Dudacek. ?

For me it's not the quantity but how I feel about the quantity. I want my top/eldest prospects to be either killing it in their league (Ruotsalainen, Cozens) or making the valid push to make it to the NHL in their role (Tage in the AHL last season maybe? but too small a sample size). My concerns are: Ruotsalainen needs to prove it on North American ice surface and pace, Tage is now a big target with a shoulder injury, and Asplund didn't have it last year in either the AHL or NHL. I also want them to force me to protect them in the expansion draft, and none of them have done that yet. (Only Cozens, Ruotsalainen are exempt.)

[FLSabreFan]

1 hour ago, IKnowPhysics said:

Now we just need someone to bite on Sanderson.

Anaheim wants a Right-handed D, so if that stay that route, Drysdale it is at 6.

Hopefully NJ takes Sanderson at 7 leaving Rossi for the Sabres

[IKnowPhysics]

22 minutes ago, FLSabreFan said:

Anaheim wants a Right-handed D, so if that stay that route, Drysdale it is at 6.

Hopefully NJ takes Sanderson at 7 leaving Rossi for the Sabres

Infiltrate the reddits, twitters, and message boards using multiple accounts.  Separately pose as longtime fans of the teams and disavow any Sabres-related anything.  Pump up Sanderson by showing highlights and stats to create fandom and a positive image.  Admonish how bare the teams' prospect pools are at D and highlight how strong rival teams' defensive depth are to stoke fears of inadequacy and need.  Ignite debates about whether the teams should select Drysdale or Sanderson to establish a false choice and encourage the other users to promote the players through argument.  Ignore, harass, delete, or downvote opinions that don't promote our goals.

Go now.  Report back later.

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, IKnowPhysics said:

Infiltrate the reddits, twitters, and message boards using multiple accounts.  Separately pose as longtime fans of the teams and disavow any Sabres-related anything.  Pump up Sanderson by showing highlights and stats to create fandom and a positive image.  Admonish how bare the teams' prospect pools are at D and highlight how strong rival teams' defensive depth are to stoke fears of inadequacy and need.  Ignite debates about whether the teams should select Drysdale or Sanderson to establish a false choice and encourage the other users to promote the players through argument.  Ignore, harass, delete, or downvote opinions that don't promote our goals.

Go now.  Report back later.

 

[Brawndo]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Agree with your point.

That said, I wouldn't trade the Sabres group (Cozens, Johnson, Dahlin, Samuelsson, Mittelstadt, Davidsson, Nylander, Asplund, plus 2017 #54 Lukkonnen) for the Kings (Turcotte, Bjornfot, Kaliyev, Kupari, Thomas, Vilardi, Anderson-Dolan, Clague, plus 2019 #50 Fagemo).

Would you?

Including Dahlin and Jokiharju in with Sabres prospects certainly changes the perspective. The Kings have yet to graduate anyone from those four drafts.

I do not believe this needs to be an all or none proposal. 
 

Would I take Kupari over Dahlin, hell no.

Turcotte over Cozens, not based on their D+1 seasons. And TBH after talking to Turcotte I was ready to play a damn game and I haven’t played Hockey since the Reagan Administration. 
 

Now would I take Vilardi, Necas or Suzuki over Mittlestadt. I think the entire board would. But even the scouts got that one wrong. 
 

Would I trade Samuelson or Johnson for Akil Thomas or Kaliyev in a heartbeat.  I think there was better value at those picks particularly for a team that was and still is in desperate need of forwards. 
 

Dahlin was a no brainer to put in the NHL, his skill dictated that. It could be argued that Chicago was more responsible for Jokiharju Development Path than Buffalo.  That leaves Mittlestadt as the only player the Sabres have graduated, depending on your definition of course, in the past four drafts and the results have been poor at that. 

 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, IKnowPhysics said:

Infiltrate the reddits, twitters, and message boards using multiple accounts.  Separately pose as longtime fans of the teams and disavow any Sabres-related anything.  Pump up Sanderson by showing highlights and stats to create fandom and a positive image.  Admonish how bare the teams' prospect pools are at D and highlight how strong rival teams' defensive depth are to stoke fears of inadequacy and need.  Ignite debates about whether the teams should select Drysdale or Sanderson to establish a false choice and encourage the other users to promote the players through argument.  Ignore, harass, delete, or downvote opinions that don't promote our goals.

Go now.  Report back later.

Waitaminnit? So LGR is actually a Jets fan doing everything he can to make sure we don't take Sanderson?

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by dudacek

[dudacek]

48 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

I do not believe this needs to be an all or none proposal. 
 

Would I take Kupari over Dahlin, hell no.

Turcotte over Cozens, not based on their D+1 seasons. And TBH after talking to Turcotte I was ready to play a damn game and I haven’t played Hockey since the Reagan Administration. 
 

Now would I take Vilardi, Necas or Suzuki over Mittlestadt. I think the entire board would. But even the scouts got that one wrong. 
 

Would I trade Samuelson or Johnson for Akil Thomas or Kaliyev in a heartbeat.  I think there was better value at those picks particularly for a team that was and still is in desperate need of forwards. 
 

Dahlin was a no brainer to put in the NHL, his skill dictated that. It could be argued that Chicago was more responsible for Jokiharju Development Path than Buffalo.  That leaves Mittlestadt as the only player the Sabres have graduated, depending on your definition of course, in the past four drafts and the results have been poor at that. 

 

I read that as "Well...no. But only because Dahlin, and the Sabres can't take credit for that."

[Rasmus_]

On 8/25/2020 at 8:39 AM, LGR4GM said:

On a completely different note:

https://www.nhl.com/devils/news/draft-jake-sanderson-profile/c-318737594

Keep in mind that NJD have other first round picks and they may opt to take Raymond/Holtz and hope that Sanderson is there in the mid teens. They hold, I think the 18th pick and the 20th? maybe. So they could also package those to move up. Or they could not draft him at all!

This Mock makes a ton of sense to my brain

https://www.draftsite.com/nhl/mock-draft/2020/

1. Lafrienere
2. Byfield
3. Stutzle
4. Perfetti
5. Raymond
6. Drysdale
7. Holtz
8. Rossi

 

If they draft a forward at #8, and can move back into the draft to get Sanderson, then it's a boon and a win.  However, taking Sanderson at 8, will be disappointing to me. 

[IKnowPhysics]

2 minutes ago, TheCerebral1 said:

If they draft a forward at #8, and can move back into the draft to get Sanderson, then it's a boon and a win.  However, taking Sanderson at 8, will be disappointing to me. 

Things I am uninterested in:

1. Trading down from #8.
2. Selecting a defenseman in the top 8.
3. Spending player assets that can be used to improve this year's roster to move up in this draft, unless it's an enormous steal.