So #8

[LGR4GM]

Lundell might not have straight line speed but again his edges and agility really need to come up a level or he won't be effective in the short NHL races that constantly occur. 

This is a reason I prefer Jarvis to Lundell. I think Jarvis has the same or better level of shot, I think his skating is far superior and I see the bakchecking needed to be a good NHL 2way forward. Lundell has better positioning and maybe a hair better IQ. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by LGR4GM

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

54 minutes ago, Curt said:

I don’t think that Liger is generally, and in this case, particularly adamant that he knows the exact outcome of any one prospect with any certaint.

Just the statement that Lundell could be a 2C, but he worries about the skating, is a reflection of the uncertainty he acknowledges is part of the development process.

What he does seem to be very adamant about is his evaluation process/method.  However, I’ve always found Liger to be easy to talk to about prospects and not dismissive of others’ ideas and opinions.

It seems like you are taking shots at him just because he is willing to put his well researched and developed opinions on prospects out there for everyone to see.  But it’s honestly hard to say for sure because you refuse to just say in plain English what the heck you are talking about.

First of all you're wrong, entirely.

I have plainly said that I respect the time and effort he puts into his work. If I didn't I wouldn't have asked his opinion on Lundell in the first place, or any other player in the past.

Your discussions may very well be fine. Sometimes mine are too. But quite of he jumps to assuming or accusing that someone is "implying" or "equating" that they're not. That is where the convo usually goes sour. I know many of us do but some more than others. I try to keep in mind one 3 letter word...are. Are you implying?....Are you equating? This turns it into a question instead of an accusation or assumption. It's something we all could use to remember.

In this particular instance he played both sides of the fence and that's what I found funny(and another poster agreed).

Personally, I like to get along with everyone but I won't shy away either. I don't really get upset for the most part but I will piss someone else off in various ways when they get an attitude.

[Ruff Around The Edges]

51 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Lundell might not have straight line speed but again his edges and agility really need to come up a level or he won't be effective in the short NHL races that constantly occur. 

This is a reason I prefer Jarvis to Lundell. I think Jarvis has the same or better level of shot, I think his skating is far superior and I see the bakchecking needed to be a good NHL 2way forward. Lundell has better positioning and maybe a hair better IQ. 

Interesting, Ill have to take an even closer look at Lundell, I did think he skating was pretty good but I need to compare him more to others around where we pick.

Jarvis is intriguing I agree.

Another possible angle here is: At 8, and no Askarov picked at that time, and Minnesota sitting at 9 and maybe even a Nashville who might bite in a goalie like Askarov, could a team like Edmonton yearn to jump to 8 to take a player like Askarov and the Sabres move down to 14, still have a good position in the 1st round, where we can get a player like Jarvis and pickup more draft capital and/or even a player that we can use for the now?

Edited August 21, 2020 by Ruff Around The Edges

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

First of all you're wrong, entirely.

I have plainly said that I respect the time and effort he puts into his work. If I didn't I wouldn't have asked his opinion on Lundell in the first place, or any other player in the past.

Your discussions may very well be fine. Sometimes mine are too. But quite of he jumps to assuming or accusing that someone is "implying" or "equating" that they're not. That is where the convo usually goes sour. I know many of us do but some more than others. I try to keep in mind one 3 letter word...are. Are you implying?....Are you equating? This turns it into a question instead of an accusation or assumption. It's something we all could use to remember.

In this particular instance he played both sides of the fence and that's what I found funny(and another poster agreed).

Personally, I like to get along with everyone but I won't shy away either. I don't really get upset for the most part but I will piss someone else off in various ways when they get an attitude.

Thank you. You have helped answer a question I had. 

8 minutes ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

Interesting, Ill have to take an even closer look at Lundell, I did think he skating was pretty good but I need to compare him more to others around where we pick.

Jarvis is intriguing I agree.

Another possible angle here is: At 8, and no Askarov picked at that time, and Minnesota sitting at 9 and maybe even a Nashville who might bite in a goalie like Askarov, could a team like Edmonton yearn to jump to 8 to take a player like Askarov and the Sabres move down to 14, still have a good position in the 1st round, where we can get a player like Jarvis and pickup more draft capital and/or even a player that we can use for the now?

I might move to 9 but 14... that's 6 more players gone and I would bet money jarvis is one of them. I personally wouldn't drop more than 1-2 spots. 

[dudacek]

It’s interesting that the Sabres sit near a perceived drop-off point in draft tiers. That makes the thought of them moving up or down more likely.

I believe GMs pay attention to the idea of tiers and project what other teams might do.

I’ve been going with the idea that the league consensus is that there are 7 forwards and 2 defencemen worth picking at 8. What if the Sabres think it’s 10 and 3? What if they think it’s 6 and 1?

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

28 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Thank you. You have helped answer a question I had. 

Glad we cleared that up some what.

Now, let's try to clear another thing up.

My original question about Lundell was assuming other players were gone, how would you rate him as our pick at 8. You adamantly were opposed using things like your fear he becomes a 3C/40pt guy. You backed that up by saying if we use a #8 pick to fill the 3C that our GM is a failure. You then tell someone else that he could excel as a 2C on the Jets because they have better wings than us. Remember, I was asking you about Lundell the player and not the team he's on or the wings he plays with.

My question would be ....why can't he excel in the Sabres at 2C if we have better wings? We all agree that we need to add a top 6 RW. If we add  a Boeser, Toffoli, P. Kane, etc, etc we could have better wings. We also want and need this for Cozens too.

Another question....let's use the Pens for example. You have Crosby/Malkin as top C's...you pick Lundell and he excels as 3 C. Wouldn't that be a good thing as the other two age that he might be able to become a 2C? Or, you have a valuable piece to aquire what you need. Why should we settle for a3C that might be an Asplund, Lazar, Mojo, Kahuna, etc. Why can't we always want the best instead of settling? 

I'm not saying that he would step in right away either. We hope that Cozens could be sheltered in the 3C at minimum and develop into a capable++ 2C. Why not have a good 3C to eventually push him? It could lead us to a situation down the road like a Tampa, not knowing which player to get rid of but knowing that the return should be good. Isn't this where we want to eventually be?

Hope to have a good convo on this and if you have need for clarification on anything just ask.

Edited August 21, 2020 by MakeSabresGrr8Again

[Marvin]

Is #8 acceptable in a package for Monahan?  Any other potential C's from rebuilds whom you would be willing to move #8 for?

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, ubkev said:

Well, after rereading my post 6 times, I couldn't find that part where I mentioned anything about last year's pick. Ya stumped me!

You missed the point. The obvious point is that unless you are going to get a hefty return for a first round pick they are valuable. And not only are they valuable in adding talent but the developmental time isn't always as long as you indicated. 

[LabattBlue]

2 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Is #8 acceptable in a package for Monahan?  Any other potential C's from rebuilds whom you would be willing to move #8 for?

I’d rather include 8OA in a package for Monahan, instead of Cozens. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by LabattBlue

[ubkev]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You missed the point. The obvious point is that unless you are going to get a hefty return for a first round pick they are valuable. And not only are they valuable in adding talent but the developmental time isn't always as long as you indicated. 

I didn't say I wanted them to trade the pick and get hosed. I didn't say trade the pick no matter what. If there is an immediate impact player available for the pick, preferably with age and term on our side, deal the pick. I want a playoff team now. Not even 2 years from now. I really don't want the embarrassment that will be the longest playoff drought in league history.

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, ubkev said:

I didn't say I wanted them to trade the pick and get hosed. I didn't say trade the pick no matter what. If there is an immediate impact player available for the pick, preferably with age and term on our side, deal the pick. I want a playoff team now. Not even 2 years from now. I really don't want the embarrassment that will be the longest playoff drought in league history.

What Sabre fan on this earth doesn't want a playoff team sooner rather than later? 

[ubkev]

The guy who thinks we needed to tank longer.

[LGR4GM]

Personally I think we see some weird things in this draft. The top 4 feel pretty locked in if the Detroit rumors are true. Anaheim I really feel like will go defense because Drysdale and Sanderson will be there to pick from. The devils will want either defense or size, I can't see them grabbing another smaller forward. Ottawa is the real wild card with that 2nd pick because they could do almost anything. They have a couple D and a couple F in the pool but honestly they strike me as a team that could take a center at 3 and then take a winger at 5. Really I think Ottawa is the perfect spot for Holtz as he gives them a young sniper RW to play with their new center. 

1. Lafrienere
2. Byfield
3. Stutzle
4. Perfetti
5. Holtz/Raymond
6. Drysdale
7. Sanderson/Lundell/Quinn/Raymond (they could go Rossi but they just got 5'10" Hughes at center so I think they shy away from Rossi because of size)
8. ??? Rossi/Lundell/Jarvis/Quinn/Raymond who knows. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by LGR4GM

[inkman]

15 hours ago, ubkev said:

The guy who thinks we needed to tank longer.

Not a thing 

[DarthEbriate]

15 hours ago, ubkev said:

The guy who thinks we needed to tank longer.

So... a franchise tank salesperson peddling tanks to teams....

16 minutes ago, inkman said:

Not a thing 

Friends... you're driving the wrong vehicle! You need safety for your family! You need style for you mid-life crisis! You need all-terrain capabilities for your weekend jaunts into the hills. Friends... you need a tank! Nothing safer. It performs great in collision testing with other midsize sedans! Mid-life crisis? Solve it with a 120 mm cannon! All wheel drive? Hah, you want yourself some treads. ....Is what that guy who wants to tank longer would say. Myself, I'd take the AT-AT.

I'm down to take Jarvis/Quinn at 8, I want the person who shoots, scores, and repeats. If trading down closely (10-12) then it's whoever is left and that's where I entertain a Lundell (i.e.: the safer pick), although I think he'll be gone with MIN or WPG.

[Crusader1969]

On 8/20/2020 at 8:01 PM, Flashsabre said:

If we could acquire a 2C without trading #8 and then land Rossi or Lundell in the draft they would be in good shape down the middle and could use Cozens as a scoring RW.

This is a very good plan.   Even if it means trading. Top 10 protected 2021 1sr rounder 

[Crusader1969]

I don’t think Lundell will be on the board at 8   a team is going to fall in love with him   He has an advantage in that he has chance to impress in Liiga, while other prospects sit at home 

He has already started his year off well, plus has an A on his sweater on a men’s team   

If LA takes Byfield, I can see Ottawa going Stutzle and Lundell.  

 

 

 

[kas23]

33 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

I don’t think Lundell will be on the board at 8   a team is going to fall in love with him   He has an advantage in that he has chance to impress in Liiga, while other prospects sit at home 

...or fail to impress. 

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, kas23 said:

...or fail to impress. 

Hmm, I think this is unlikely. Lundell is in year 3 in that league so he knows what it takes. Could be a massive breakout. 

[dudacek]

It will be interesting to see what September does to the rankings of those who I’ll be playing. Lundell and Raymond are certainly two who could affect my feelings.

[Ducky]

On 8/22/2020 at 10:22 AM, DarthEbriate said:

I'm down to take Jarvis/Quinn at 8, I want the person who shoots, scores, and repeats. If trading down closely (10-12) then it's whoever is left and that's where I entertain a Lundell (i.e.: the safer pick), although I think he'll be gone with MIN or WPG.

Minny will definitely take Lundell if he is available...assuming none of the higher ranked centers are available. 

I think Drysdale and Sanderson go before 8 but Sanderson is a hard D man to pass over...

[Ducky]

23 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

This is a very good plan.   Even if it means trading. Top 10 protected 2021 1sr rounder 

A player like Stepan would be a good one year stopgap until Cozens is ready to play 2C.

That way the player drafted at 8 is the Sabres' asset and they have a 2C for little cost besides his 6.5m AAV. Shmaltz would be a good long term 2C from AZ but I think you guys will be okay there.

Cozens centering Skinner and a top grade winger from this year's draft would look nice in a couple of years and the cost is probably a 2nd. That's a 2nd line with 2/3 of it on ELCs. Monaghan is an UFA in 3 more seasons.

You guys are good on D but I think the main thing needed is patience in the team for another 2 seasons. Cozens is probably the 2C starting the '21-'22 season. Whether the Sabres make the playoffs in the next two years is irrelevant if they can build a consistent contender by the 2022-2023 season. Jack in his prime with the Sabres consistently making the post-season with a good supporting cast is what the target should be. Trading away top 10 first round draft picks makes it harder to build that supporting cast.

[Thorner]

22 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

This is a very good plan.   Even if it means trading. Top 10 protected 2021 1sr rounder 

I think Cozens ends up a centre regardless of if he breaks in on the wing. Ideally built for it. 

19 minutes ago, Ducky said:

A player like Stepan would be a good one year stopgap until Cozens is ready to play 2C.

That way the player drafted at 8 is the Sabres' asset and they have a 2C for little cost besides his 6.5m AAV. Shmaltz would be a good long term 2C from AZ but I think you guys will be okay there.

Cozens centering Skinner and a top grade winger from this year's draft would look nice in a couple of years and the cost is probably a 2nd. That's a 2nd line with 2/3 of it on ELCs. Monaghan is an UFA in 3 more seasons.

You guys are good on D but I think the main thing needed is patience in the team for another 2 seasons. Cozens is probably the 2C starting the '21-'22 season. Whether the Sabres make the playoffs in the next two years is irrelevant if they can build a consistent contender by the 2022-2023 season. Jack in his prime with the Sabres consistently making the post-season with a good supporting cast is what the target should be. Trading away top 10 first round draft picks makes it harder to build that supporting cast.

This isn't true. 

I shudder to see the state of this team (and the presence here, or lack thereof) of Jack Eichel if we break the all time playoff drought record. 

Also, the data shows Eichel's best offensive years are probably right around now. Waiting until he's nearly 27 to get him his first taste of the playoffs would be a massive mistake. 

Not to mention, we'll have pissed away half the term of our best contract, Eichel's deal. If we didn't make the playoffs till 3 seasons from now, we're looking at being in year 5 of 8 on that. 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Thorny

[Ducky]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

I think Cozens ends up a centre regardless of if he breaks in on the wing. Ideally built for it. 

This isn't true. 

I shudder to see the state of this team (and the presence here, or lack thereof) of Jack Eichel if we break the all time playoff drought record. 

You are probably right but what I meant was build for the long term, not the short term.

I think Cozen starts as 3C in a somewhat sheltered role until he learns the pro game. Harder to play 82 games as a 2C at that age.

[FLSabreFan]

Anybody interested in dealing Sam + for Monahan.  The + would be their choice of Asplund, Mitts, Tage or 2020-2nd.  

In this equation for the Sabres would be the expectation of Risto and Montour being dealt for RW's to backfill for Sam and the open 2RW position.  Guys I would want, that have been part of rumored discussions around the last TDL are Alex Tuch and Josh Anderson.

My goal is obviously to secure a decent 2C while retaining 8-OA and Cozens, and backfilling with surplus RhD's who are redundant to Joker and Miller to a lesser degree