2C and 3C for 20-21

[OhMyDahlin]

15 hours ago, Curt said:

I wouldn’t trade Cozens, full stop.  However, I would not let Cozen’s existence discourage me from adding a 2C quality player.  

I would say that a 2nd pair LD would be very helpful.  Someone to replace Scandella.  Then trade one of Risto/Montour for forward help.  Leaves us with........

Dahlin-Jokiharju 

XLDX-Risto/Montour

McCabe-Miller

I think that would be a very solid group.  

I agree, to me Cozens is untouchable...or at least it would have to be something incredible.

I guess I'm just wondering if Jokiharju can be a top-line defender. Dependent on that 2LD, I guess I could get behind that defense. Some size wouldn't hurt.

[sabresparaavida]

22 hours ago, Drag0nDan said:

No okposo love?  

I can't believe my mind blanked Okposo out of the lineup. There's your 4 RW.

[Curt]

47 minutes ago, OhMyDahlin said:

I agree, to me Cozens is untouchable...or at least it would have to be something incredible.

I guess I'm just wondering if Jokiharju can be a top-line defender. Dependent on that 2LD, I guess I could get behind that defense. Some size wouldn't hurt.

I’m thinking that Sabres should be looking to add a “boring”, and cheap LD, regardless of size.  Someone who can be solid on D, help the PK, and make smart, but unspectacular contributions to offense, thus not racking up many points.  Basically a Scandella type, hopefully a little better though.

[LGR4GM]

We need to add, that's really the key. We need to add players and strengthen the lineup and if we can't get a 2c, we need to add a 2rw or whatever top 6 player we can get our hands on. 

[JohnC]

39 minutes ago, Curt said:

I’m thinking that Sabres should be looking to add a “boring”, and cheap LD, regardless of size.  Someone who can be solid on D, help the PK, and make smart, but unspectacular contributions to offense, thus not racking up many points.  Basically a Scandella type, hopefully a little better though.

I always felt that Scandella was unfairly criticized. As a third pairing defenseman with average amount of minutes he was a solid/useful player. When his role was expanded or he played on a pairing beyond his talents he struggled. I thought that when he played with Joki he was a very positive influence on his game. 

If the Sabres can add a player or two to bolster the second line it will upgrade the lower lines by pushing players down to play where they are more appropriately suited. As the post above by @LGR4GM points out if you can make the right additions it will positively reverberate throughout the lineup. 

[LabattBlue]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

I’m thinking that Sabres should be looking to add a “boring”, and cheap LD, regardless of size.  Someone who can be solid on D, help the PK, and make smart, but unspectacular contributions to offense, thus not racking up many points.  Basically a Scandella type, hopefully a little better though.

I’ve thought this all along. Not everyone on defense has to be this great skating PMD who is usually lacking in his own zone. 

[Curt]

24 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I always felt that Scandella was unfairly criticized. As a third pairing defenseman with average amount of minutes he was a solid/useful player. When his role was expanded or he played on a pairing beyond his talents he struggled. I thought that when he played with Joki he was a very positive influence on his game. 

If the Sabres can add a player or two to bolster the second line it will upgrade the lower lines by pushing players down to play where they are more appropriately suited. As the post above by @LGR4GM points out if you can make the right additions it will positively reverberate throughout the lineup. 

Scandella: In 2017-18 he was fine.  In 2018-19 he was hot garbage.  In 2019-20 he was fine.  He deserved the criticism for 2018-19.

[Curt]

12 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

I’ve thought this all along. Not everyone on defense has to be this great skating PMD who is usually lacking in his own zone. 

I mean, I’m not advocating for slow, big, defensive defensemen.  Not ever.  That’s not Scandella.  Scandella is a good skater And he does/can move the puck pretty well.

People use the term puck moving defenseman so much now, that I think it doesn’t mean much.  If a defenseman isn’t a puck moving defenseman, if he can’t move the puck out of the zone, then get him off my team.  What’s he good for?

Edited July 17, 2020 by Curt

[LabattBlue]

22 minutes ago, Curt said:

I mean, I’m not advocating for slow, big, defensive defensemen.  Not ever.  That’s not Scandella.  Scandella is a good skater And he does/can move the puck pretty well.

People use the term puck moving defenseman so much now, that I think it doesn’t mean much.  If a defenseman isn’t a puck moving defenseman, if he can’t move the puck out of the zone, then get him off my team.  What’s he good for?

I’m not advocating for a blue line full of guys who skate like they are in cement,  but I also don’t want 6 guys on my blue line who aren’t physical and don’t have a clue how to defend in their own end. 
 

There is a balance to be had, and right now that scale is tipped one way too far. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by LabattBlue

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

We need to add, that's really the key. We need to add players and strengthen the lineup and if we can't get a 2c, we need to add a 2rw or whatever top 6 player we can get our hands on. 

I think a real 3C (that can reasonably play a line higher) would actually be the more important add in that scenario, but yes, as many top 6 as can be had.

To me it's a much better bet Cozens can take on 2RW right out of the gate than it is one of the players we currently have on the roster can capably play 2C.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Thorny

[Curt]

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

I’m not advocating for a blue line full of guys who skate like they are in cement,  but I also don’t want 6 guys on my blue line who aren’t physical and don’t have a clue how to defend in their own end. 
 

There is a balance to be had, and right now that scale is tipped one way too far. 

Part of my problem, is that it’s not binary.  A guy is not either puck mover or not puck mover.  Physical or not physical.  Defensive or not defensive.  All players are on a spectrum in all their skills.

I don’t think that the Sabres blue line was/is particularly soft/unphysical.  Risto, McCabe, Miller, Scandella are all pretty physical.  Borgen, the top D prospect, is very physical.  At the same time, I think none of Risto, McCabe, Miller are great in their own zone.  I think that “good at defense“, is a much greater need than “physical”.

And I think that center help is far and away a greater need than anything on defense.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Curt

[Drag0nDan]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

Scandella: In 2017-18 he was fine.  In 2018-19 he was hot garbage.  In 2019-20 he was fine.  He deserved the criticism for 2018-19.

He definitely struggled on the PK in 2019 though.  RK seemed to primarily use risto/mccabe there to... not great success.  But whoever the other pair was always seemed to be looking around wondering how they scored.

[North Buffalo]

4 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

I’m not advocating for a blue line full of guys who skate like they are in cement,  but I also don’t want 6 guys on my blue line who aren’t physical and don’t have a clue how to defend in their own end. 
 

There is a balance to be had, and right now that scale is tipped one way too far. 

Anyone think Will Borgen can take that next step... has some grit pretty good skater decent size 6'3" could use another 10-15 lbs and good passer not sure about his shot.

[LabattBlue]

21 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Anyone think Will Borgen can take that next step... has some grit pretty good skater decent size 6'3" could use another 10-15 lbs and good passer not sure about his shot.

I think Borgen has a really good chance to be a 5-6-7 blue liner this season.  All depends on what the Sabres do in the off-season via F/A or trade. 

[dudacek]

If Borgen was an LD, I’d pencil him in as the physical, PK, 3rd pairing guy.

With Pilut gone he’s #7 on the depth chart right now if you ignore hands.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

If Borgen was an LD, I’d pencil him in as the physical, PK, 3rd pairing guy.

With Pilut gone he’s #7 on the depth chart right now if you ignore hands.

“Wait, ignoring handedness isn’t the default?” - Botterill somewhere, probably. 

[Andrew Amerk]

6 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

Anyone think Will Borgen can take that next step... has some grit pretty good skater decent size 6'3" could use another 10-15 lbs and good passer not sure about his shot.

Based on what I was seeing in Rochester, he looks basically ready. 
 

I should also add that Samuelsson looks like he will be that “boring” D people are looking for, but in 2 years. 

[Curt]

5 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Based on what I was seeing in Rochester, he looks basically ready. 
 

I should also add that Samuelsson looks like he will be that “boring” D people are looking for, but in 2 years. 

I hope so.  I have been worried about Samuelson’s skating from the start, but I’ve been slightly encouraged by recent reports of his play from this past season.  I hope he can be a real shutdown type guy.

[Andrew Amerk]

9 minutes ago, Curt said:

I hope so.  I have been worried about Samuelson’s skating from the start, but I’ve been slightly encouraged by recent reports of his play from this past season.  I hope he can be a real shutdown type guy.

I actually think fans are going to be pleasantly surprised down the line. He’s not flashy, so he’s not notable/newsworthy. Just one of those D that goes out and does his job. 
 

I don’t recall anyone around here hating on Jay McKee just because he didn’t do figure 8’s or rack up points. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Andrew Amerk

[dudacek]

44 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

I actually think fans are going to be pleasantly surprised down the line. He’s not flashy, so he’s not notable/newsworthy. Just one of those D that goes out and does his job. 
 

I don’t recall anyone around here hating on Jay McKee just because he didn’t do figure 8’s or rack up points. 

Jay is a very good comparison for how I envision Samuelsson developing; I never thought of that one before.

Which is a good example of why I’ve struggled with the hate he gets around here; everybody loved Jay.

I’ve bashed Botterill hard, but I think in five or six years we’re going to thank him when we are rocking a top four of Lidstrom (Dahlin) Hjalmarsson (Jokiharju) McKee (Samuelsson) and Tallinder (Johnson), with the likes of Bryson and Laaksonen nipping at their heels. Our group of defencemen who can’t buy a beer is exceptionally strong.

Edited July 18, 2020 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

Samuelsson is McCabes replacement. Let's hope he works hard on his agility. 

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Andrew Amerk said:

I actually think fans are going to be pleasantly surprised down the line. He’s not flashy, so he’s not notable/newsworthy. Just one of those D that goes out and does his job. 
 

I don’t recall anyone around here hating on Jay McKee just because he didn’t do figure 8’s or rack up points. 

It’s a different league from back when McKee was a Sabre.  That was 15 years ago.  I would question whether he could play in today’s NHL.  I think it would certainly be harder for him.

[dudacek]

47 minutes ago, Curt said:

It’s a different league from back when McKee was a Sabre.  That was 15 years ago.  I would question whether he could play in today’s NHL.  I think it would certainly be harder for him.

Bortuzzo and Edmundson didn’t struggle much in the Stanley Cup playoffs last year. Chara and Carlo sure slowed the Bruins down.

Brooks Orpik went out with a cup ring the year before, defeating Brayden McNabb and Derek Englund.

The death of the stay-at-home defenceman is greatly exaggerated.

Edited July 18, 2020 by dudacek

[Andrew Amerk]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

It’s a different league from back when McKee was a Sabre.  That was 15 years ago.  I would question whether he could play in today’s NHL.  I think it would certainly be harder for him.

Yes, the game has changed, but it hasn’t devalued the role of a “stay at home” defenseman. 

[Curt]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

Bortuzzo and Edmundson didn’t struggle much in the Stanley Cup playoffs last year. Chara and Carlo sure slowed the Bruins down.

Brooks Orpik went out with a cup ring the year before, defeating Brayden McNabb and Derek Englund.

The death of the stay-at-home defenceman is greatly exaggerated.

Perhaps I should have been more clear.

I did not say that the stay at home defenseman was dead.  I said that players in the league today generally need to have a higher baseline competence as skaters than they did 15 years ago.  That’s why I question Samuelson and, by extension, McKee.

5 hours ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Yes, the game has changed, but it hasn’t devalued the role of a “stay at home” defenseman. 

Not devalued the role, no.  I never said that.  But even stay at home D need to be better skaters than they were 15 years ago.  That’s the only thing I’m saying.