thewookie1 Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 38 minutes ago, Brawndo said: Good, good...... We could even take Bozak in order to get more assets. Make them pay more!
Curt Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 45 minutes ago, Brawndo said: Jake Neighbors and Dylan Peterson for Hall (50% retained)
Randall Flagg Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 32 minutes ago, thewookie1 said: Good, good...... We could even take Bozak in order to get more assets. Make them pay more! Has bozak become that much of an anchor ?
DarthEbriate Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 58 minutes ago, Brawndo said: GM Kheevyn's phone had better be ringing off the hook after he traded a veteran Cup-winning veteran center and retained salary for a 3rd and 5th. A 3rd is expected to get to the AHL. A 5th is a complete crapshoot, but basically isn't going to amount to anything. And yes, Staal was unfocused, borderline-negligent garbage this season and we're better off without him. But once you sell an asset well below value, you'll have to fight to get anything close to market value for the rest of the garbage. Into the garbage chute, GM. MTL Bergevin is happy to trade with us. Now STL is happy to trade with us. Cap-wise I don't see how STL can manages it unless it's absurd (Hall plus 50% retention for Sundqvist, Dunn, and Kyrou). All their contracts are on NTCs. 1
Popular Post LGR4GM Posted March 28, 2021 Popular Post Report Posted March 28, 2021 59 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said: GM Kheevyn's phone had better be ringing off the hook after he traded a veteran Cup-winning veteran center and retained salary for a 3rd and 5th. A 3rd is expected to get to the AHL. A 5th is a complete crapshoot, but basically isn't going to amount to anything. And yes, Staal was unfocused, borderline-negligent garbage this season and we're better off without him. But once you sell an asset well below value, you'll have to fight to get anything close to market value for the rest of the garbage. Into the garbage chute, GM. MTL Bergevin is happy to trade with us. Now STL is happy to trade with us. Cap-wise I don't see how STL can manages it unless it's absurd (Hall plus 50% retention for Sundqvist, Dunn, and Kyrou). All their contracts are on NTCs. Well below? What do you think we should have gotten for a 36 year old ufa about to retire? 7 1 2
7+6=13 Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 1 hour ago, DarthEbriate said: GM Kheevyn's phone had better be ringing off the hook after he traded a veteran Cup-winning veteran center and retained salary for a 3rd and 5th. A 3rd is expected to get to the AHL. A 5th is a complete crapshoot, but basically isn't going to amount to anything. And yes, Staal was unfocused, borderline-negligent garbage this season and we're better off without him. But once you sell an asset well below value, you'll have to fight to get anything close to market value for the rest of the garbage. Into the garbage chute, GM. MTL Bergevin is happy to trade with us. Now STL is happy to trade with us. Cap-wise I don't see how STL can manages it unless it's absurd (Hall plus 50% retention for Sundqvist, Dunn, and Kyrou). All their contracts are on NTCs. You think him winning the cup in '06 should have gotten us more in the trade?
Thorner Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 9 hours ago, Brawndo said: Having trouble scoring...and their solution is to target Taylor Hall? 1 4
PromoTheRobot Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 4 hours ago, Thorny said: Having trouble scoring...and their solution is to target Taylor Hall? I look forward to all these duds magically finding their game once they leave the Sabres. Which begs the question why they bagged it here?
Curt Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 8 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: I look forward to all these duds magically finding their game once they leave the Sabres. Which begs the question why they bagged it here? Why do you think that will happen? Is that what’s been happening the past few years?
Radar Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 I'm coming more and more toward the idea that the main problem isn't just coaching or overall talent level but more not having good chemistry. TEAM as opposed to INDIVIDUAL TALENT. We ask why do they sometimes leave and play so much better somewhere else? Because maybe they piece in to a team. Coaches are important but they can't create chemistry of the team. For instance, Hall may be very talented but may not play well with say Eichel. Eichel is very talented but may not be a fit with Skinner ect. The GM and coach need to build a team not a collection of individuals with talent. Fans want to go out and get big names but do they fit team wise? 1
Curt Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 Just now, Radar said: I'm coming more and more toward the idea that the main problem isn't just coaching or overall talent level but more not having good chemistry. TEAM as opposed to INDIVIDUAL TALENT. We ask why do they sometimes leave and play so much better somewhere else? Because maybe they piece in to a team. Coaches are important but they can't create chemistry of the team. For instance, Hall may be very talented but may not play well with say Eichel. Eichel is very talented but may not be a fit with Skinner ect. The GM and coach need to build a team not a collection of individuals with talent. Fans want to go out and get big names but do they fit team wise? Who has??? There might be one or two guys who played better after leaving over the past few years, but for the most part that is NOT the case.
Radar Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Curt said: Who has??? There might be one or two guys who played better after leaving over the past few years, but for the most part that is NOT the case. That's what I meant by sometimes. That is not the main comment I was making. I'm not convinced that just getting a good coach fixes this group. Maybe improves it but doesn't fix it. Again my comment was meant to question is it a talent issue, coaching issue or a chemistry (team)issue. I think the talent is better than the team and it's record. Edited March 28, 2021 by Radar
Flashsabre Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 12 hours ago, DarthEbriate said: GM Kheevyn's phone had better be ringing off the hook after he traded a veteran Cup-winning veteran center and retained salary for a 3rd and 5th. A 3rd is expected to get to the AHL. A 5th is a complete crapshoot, but basically isn't going to amount to anything. And yes, Staal was unfocused, borderline-negligent garbage this season and we're better off without him. But once you sell an asset well below value, you'll have to fight to get anything close to market value for the rest of the garbage. Into the garbage chute, GM. MTL Bergevin is happy to trade with us. Now STL is happy to trade with us. Cap-wise I don't see how STL can manages it unless it's absurd (Hall plus 50% retention for Sundqvist, Dunn, and Kyrou). All their contracts are on NTCs. So he is washed up hot garbage yet he should have got a lot more for him. You will be lucky to get a 1st for Hall with retention
DarthEbriate Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 11 hours ago, LGR4GM said: Well below? What do you think we should have gotten for a 36 year old ufa about to retire? MTL is holding TBL's 2nd round pick (#56-64) and that's what we should have gotten for him as soon as we agreed to retain 1/2 his salary. After quarantine, they're getting him for 1/3 of the season (much more than a typical 1/7 of a season at a standard trade deadline), plus playoffs. They're not guaranteed to make it yet, but they're in 4th position with 5+ games in hand on the teams trailing them in the standings, so their odds are really good. Standard established top-6 vet rental = 2nd round pick. If Bergevin were trading Staal to a contender, he'd net a 2nd (just like Scandella last season). And all this said, I'm glad we got something for him. 11 hours ago, 7+6=13 said: You think him winning the cup in '06 should have gotten us more in the trade? Check. All the positive experience/leadership things we said about getting him this offseason will be said about him again when he gets to Montreal. It's another little detail they should've paid for. Even at the end here on the Team of Discontent the players liked him off the ice, he's good in the room, etc. He'll go to Montreal, get re-motivated by the chance at winning and playing in the playoffs and be fine. (And I don't mean great, I mean fine. He'll be asked to play bottom 6 center, benefit from better coaching and motivated coworkers, and look more like a real hockey player again.)
LGR4GM Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said: MTL is holding TBL's 2nd round pick (#56-64) and that's what we should have gotten for him as soon as we agreed to retain 1/2 his salary. After quarantine, they're getting him for 1/3 of the season (much more than a typical 1/7 of a season at a standard trade deadline), plus playoffs. They're not guaranteed to make it yet, but they're in 4th position with 5+ games in hand on the teams trailing them in the standings, so their odds are really good. Standard established top-6 vet rental = 2nd round pick. If Bergevin were trading Staal to a contender, he'd net a 2nd (just like Scandella last season). And all this said, I'm glad we got something for him. Check. All the positive experience/leadership things we said about getting him this offseason will be said about him again when he gets to Montreal. It's another little detail they should've paid for. Even at the end here on the Team of Discontent the players liked him off the ice, he's good in the room, etc. He'll go to Montreal, get re-motivated by the chance at winning and playing in the playoffs and be fine. (And I don't mean great, I mean fine. He'll be asked to play bottom 6 center, benefit from better coaching and motivated coworkers, and look more like a real hockey player again.) I am not sure he is going to be a top 6 player for them but mathematically speaking the difference between 56-64 and 74-86 in terms of draft picks plus the addition of pick 146 basically equates. Also this year there are major covid implications with the cap. Any trade involving money to the cap will involve equal money in or out/ or cap retention. Also who cares that we retained 1.6mil? We aren't adding to our team at this point. 1 1
French Collection Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Radar said: I'm coming more and more toward the idea that the main problem isn't just coaching or overall talent level but more not having good chemistry. TEAM as opposed to INDIVIDUAL TALENT. We ask why do they sometimes leave and play so much better somewhere else? Because maybe they piece in to a team. Coaches are important but they can't create chemistry of the team. For instance, Hall may be very talented but may not play well with say Eichel. Eichel is very talented but may not be a fit with Skinner ect. The GM and coach need to build a team not a collection of individuals with talent. Fans want to go out and get big names but do they fit team wise? Yeah, it’s not like baseball, where getting top talent at a few positions can create a top team. Those guys only need to mesh a bit for defence, and even that is pretty straightforward.
DarthEbriate Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 9 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: I am not sure he is going to be a top 6 player for them but mathematically speaking the difference between 56-64 and 74-86 in terms of draft picks plus the addition of pick 146 basically equates. Also this year there are major covid implications with the cap. Any trade involving money to the cap will involve equal money in or out/ or cap retention. Also who cares that we retained 1.6mil? We aren't adding to our team at this point. The cap space could be helpful in moving Hall. I still don't see how STL could do trade for him without a player waiving their NTC to come here... which is ridiculous unless they just want the early offseason. But even 1.6 could allow us to get a better player in return for Hall. 19 minutes ago, Flashsabre said: So he is washed up hot garbage yet he should have got a lot more for him. You will be lucky to get a 1st for Hall with retention If Hall were having a great season, a 1st + prospect + maybe some throw-in (like a 4th) would be the expectation. But he's not the same since his knee injury and especially not the same since joining our marooned-in-space star cruiser. He was always foremost a playmaker, but now that's all he is. Honestly, my expectation for him is the same as Staal. He's a UFA veteran rental in the top 6 who should at least get us a 2nd. His salary and everyone else being up against the cap means we almost have to take back player/salary for him with lower pick(s) to supplement. 1
Thorner Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 5 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said: The cap space could be helpful in moving Hall. I still don't see how STL could do trade for him without a player waiving their NTC to come here... which is ridiculous unless they just want the early offseason. But even 1.6 could allow us to get a better player in return for Hall. If Hall were having a great season, a 1st + prospect + maybe some throw-in (like a 4th) would be the expectation. But he's not the same since his knee injury and especially not the same since joining our marooned-in-space star cruiser. He was always foremost a playmaker, but now that's all he is. Honestly, my expectation for him is the same as Staal. He's a UFA veteran rental in the top 6 who should at least get us a 2nd. His salary and everyone else being up against the cap means we almost have to take back player/salary for him with lower pick(s) to supplement. I too wish that bum was having a great season
DarthEbriate Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 I do need to point out that at least GM Kheevyn got 2 picks for Staal, as for some bizarre reason JBot had had a team that missed the playoffs every season yet also had an overall draft pick deficit (6 picks per draft). 1
Curt Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Radar said: That's what I meant by sometimes. That is not the main comment I was making. I'm not convinced that just getting a good coach fixes this group. Maybe improves it but doesn't fix it. Again my comment was meant to question is it a talent issue, coaching issue or a chemistry (team)issue. I think the talent is better than the team and it's record. Then I suppose I was giving input with regards to that question. The players who have left did not suddenly perform better. So, I would say that is one point in support of it being a talent issue as opposed to coaching or chemistry. 1
dudacek Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 2 hours ago, DarthEbriate said: MTL is holding TBL's 2nd round pick (#56-64) and that's what we should have gotten for him as soon as we agreed to retain 1/2 his salary. After quarantine, they're getting him for 1/3 of the season (much more than a typical 1/7 of a season at a standard trade deadline), plus playoffs. They're not guaranteed to make it yet, but they're in 4th position with 5+ games in hand on the teams trailing them in the standings, so their odds are really good. Standard established top-6 vet rental = 2nd round pick. If Bergevin were trading Staal to a contender, he'd net a 2nd (just like Scandella last season). And all this said, I'm glad we got something for him. Check. All the positive experience/leadership things we said about getting him this offseason will be said about him again when he gets to Montreal. It's another little detail they should've paid for. Even at the end here on the Team of Discontent the players liked him off the ice, he's good in the room, etc. He'll go to Montreal, get re-motivated by the chance at winning and playing in the playoffs and be fine. (And I don't mean great, I mean fine. He'll be asked to play bottom 6 center, benefit from better coaching and motivated coworkers, and look more like a real hockey player again.) You're talking about the return on Eric Staal, the career resume. The return on Eric Staal, the Buffalo Sabre would have been a flat zero. Who trades anything for someone that slow, soft and unproductive? Montreal paid what they did hoping he gets "re-motivated by the chance at winning and playing in the playoffs and be fine." I'd be really curious to see how many times a 35-year-old, -20, 3-goal scorer garnered a 2nd-rounder at the deadline. Regardless of what you and I think, Adams shopped him around and took the best offer. Isn't that what he should have done?
dudacek Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 Did you guys see the Athletic article where they ran a bunch of trade scenarios past real hockey executives for their opinion? https://theathletic.com/2464702/2021/03/21/who-says-no-nhl-executives-evaluate-your-trade-proposals-for-eichel-mantha-dumba-and-others/ There is a whole Jack Eichel section: 10. Buffalo Sabres send Jack Eichel to the Avalanche for defenseman Bowen Byram, Alex Newhook, 2021 second-round pick, unprotected 2022 first-round pick. — @got2bleaf 11. Columbus sends Seth Jones and Emil Bemstrom to the Sabres for Jack Eichel. — @iamTwiggy 12. Sabres send Jack Eichel to the Rangers for Nils Lundkvist, Pavel Buchnevich, Ryan Strome, 2021 first and Braden Schneider. — @vikesfan47 13. Sabres send Jack Eichel to the Minnesota Wild for Kevin Fiala, Matt Dumba and one of the Wild first-round picks… Buffalo gets a decent haul and gets Eichel out of the Eastern Conference. — @ABobeck94 14. Sabres send Jack Eichel to the Kings for Quinton Byfield, Alex Turcotte, Adrian Kempe, 2022 first-round pick, 2023 first-round pick, 2022 second-round pick. — @RangerRob13 The verdict was that the Kings deal is the only one the Sabres would take, and only if the owner authorized a blow-up. He also thought the Kings would say no as is, but that there is a deal to be made there with tweaking. "The one thing one executive kept stressing is that an Eichel deal only makes sense for Buffalo if it’s getting something close to a comparable player back rather than deals built around futures. Even good futures like these." Exec also said a 3rd would be a "home run" for Staal (prior to the actual trade), Nashville would turn down Skinner for Duchene, and that a first with an expiring contract coming back is the right price for Hall. Another nugget given this board's interest in Sam Bennett: "Bennett is a good player, but at that cap hit probably doesn’t get a qualifying offer, so he is just a rental."
LaPerreausek Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 5 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: I look forward to all these duds magically finding their game once they leave the Sabres. Which begs the question why they bagged it here? They get brought down by the losing culture
PromoTheRobot Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 2 hours ago, LaPerreausek said: They get brought down by the losing culture So you're fine if you bring in a guy and he decides to mail it in because "it's a losing culture?"
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