2020-21 Trade Rumors and Speculation

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, Sabre fan said:

don't forget we gave away Kane as well for a bag of hockey pucks...and a side note I find it hard to believe that Pegulas worried about ROR's bonus when they throw money around like it's nothing (which it is to them)...hell Jack ***** every year that he hates losing so what's the difference from when ROR stated he hated losing and tanking on purpose? I totally agree losing quality in ROR and Kane for nothing, just like losing Briere and Peca years ago for nothing, sets the team back again and again. Just poor management year after year...

This team never tanked with ROR on the roster. 

[Sabre fan]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

This team never tanked with ROR on the roster. 

not on purpose anyways...

 

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, Sabre fan said:

not on purpose anyways...

 

If you are tanking you are doing it on purpose. Tanking by definition requires you to deliberately gut the team of talent so you can finish low and get a high pick. The Sabres never did that with ROR on the team and haven't done that since 2015. 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Sabre fan said:

don't forget we gave away Kane as well for a bag of hockey pucks...and a side note I find it hard to believe that Pegulas worried about ROR's bonus when they throw money around like it's nothing (which it is to them)...hell Jack ***** every year that he hates losing so what's the difference from when ROR stated he hated losing and tanking on purpose? I totally agree losing quality in ROR and Kane for nothing, just like losing Briere and Peca years ago for nothing, sets the team back again and again. Just poor management year after year...

AP's John Wawrow has not conclusively stated but has indicated that there were strong suggestions that the owner was not willing to pay the bonus and wanted the player moved out before the bonus payment. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

I read this trade suggestion and I am intrigued.

Risto, our 1st in 2020 (8th overall) and a 5th to Ana for Henrique, their 1st in 2020 (6th overall) and a 5th.

Ana gets a young offensive RHD which they need.  We get solid 2C to shelter Cozens as he develops who can move to a solid 3C when Cozens is fully ready.  Jumping ahead of NJ in the draft also helps guarantee a shot or Perfetti or Rossi or both in the draft.  Downside is Henrique is 30 and has a slightly higher cap hit then Risto and we'd lose Risto's physical presence. 

Added benefit is that we can then re-sign Montour to a reasonable deal and get him playing back at his correct position.  His new deal, likely in the 4 mill area will ultimately be a cap savings over Risto.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[inkman]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Wait, is this a thread about getting Brock ***** Boeser... a guy we should have drafted instead of trading for Lehner? 

Nope, not doing this. 

Figured you'd be squealing like a little girl at the thought 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, inkman said:

Figured you'd be squealing like a little girl at the thought 

I mentioned it earlier in the thread but he didn't bite.

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

AP's John Wawrow has not conclusively stated but has indicated that there were strong suggestions that the owner was not willing to pay the bonus and wanted the player moved out before the bonus payment. 

Whether the original idea to move O'Reilly came from ownership or executive, the idea that he had to be moved prior to paying the bonus was definitely on ownership. 

[darksabre]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Whether the original idea to move O'Reilly came from ownership or executive, the idea that he had to be moved prior to paying the bonus was definitely on ownership. 

I'm less inclined to think this was true these days. Part of me thinks Botterill wanted to move O'Reilly without paying the bonus to prove that he was the GM that the Pegulas hired. I think he genuinely thought this move was a stroke of genius.

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I'm less inclined to think this was true these days. Part of me thinks Botterill wanted to move O'Reilly without paying the bonus to prove that he was the GM that the Pegulas hired. I think he genuinely thought this move was a stroke of genius.

Except, he'd had a better offer from Armstrong earlier in the off-season.  Armstrong figured the deal was dead, but Botterill came back to him last minute & that's when Botterill got offered what the Sabres ended up with.  If he went into the negotiations planning to take the best he could get without paying the bonus, then he would've taken an earlier deal. 

It just doesn't make any sense unless ownership was the driver of the 'if he goes, so does his bonus.'

[darksabre]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Except, he'd had a better offer from Armstrong earlier in the off-season.  Armstrong figured the deal was dead, but Botterill came back to him last minute & that's when Botterill got offered what the Sabres ended up with.  If he went into the negotiations planning to take the best he could get without paying the bonus, then he would've taken an earlier deal.

It just doesn't make any sense unless ownership was the driver of the 'if he goes, so does his bonus.'

Would he? What if he thought there was a better offer coming if he waited? 

We have to allow for the possibility that Botterill was stupid.

[Ducky]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

This team never tanked with ROR on the roster. 

I think it is the GM that tanks the team....not the players or HC.

It wasn't wrong to trade Kane, it was wrong to trade for him. Moving Kane was a good move. Good old time player but not worth the trouble.

Plan to be a good team in 2-3 years and stay a good team. Trading away young players and high draft picks is not the way to go unless you are a contender. Cozens and high draft picks along with Jack and Dahlin should be pretty much untouchable.

Hextall in Philly did a great job of stocking the cupboards and they are reaping the benefits now. They have a good, young back end and some very good young forwards to go along with some really good vets. Also, it looks like they have their goalie for the forseeable future...arguably the most important part of the team. They drafted well, didn't give up too many bad contracts and have more or less been developing their prospects properly.

[inkman]

25 minutes ago, Ducky said:

I think it is the GM that tanks the team....not the players or HC.

Yes.  Everyone who didn't take the short bus to school agrees.  

[LGR4GM]

26 minutes ago, Ducky said:

I think it is the GM that tanks the team....not the players or HC.

It wasn't wrong to trade Kane, it was wrong to trade for him. Moving Kane was a good move. Good old time player but not worth the trouble.

Plan to be a good team in 2-3 years and stay a good team. Trading away young players and high draft picks is not the way to go unless you are a contender. Cozens and high draft picks along with Jack and Dahlin should be pretty much untouchable.

Hextall in Philly did a great job of stocking the cupboards and they are reaping the benefits now. They have a good, young back end and some very good young forwards to go along with some really good vets. Also, it looks like they have their goalie for the forseeable future...arguably the most important part of the team. They drafted well, didn't give up too many bad contracts and have more or less been developing their prospects properly.

Yes and I will repeat what I said. This Buffalo Sabres never tanked while ROR was on the team or since. 

[dudacek]

43 minutes ago, Ducky said:

Plan to be a good team in 2-3 years and stay a good team. Trading away young players and high draft picks is not the way to go unless you are a contender. Cozens and high draft picks along with Jack and Dahlin should be pretty much untouchable.

Hextall in Philly did a great job of stocking the cupboards and they are reaping the benefits now. They have a good, young back end and some very good young forwards to go along with some really good vets. Also, it looks like they have their goalie for the forseeable future...arguably the most important part of the team. They drafted well, didn't give up too many bad contracts and have more or less been developing their prospects properly.

This was Botterill’s plan. It might have worked if he knew what a good player looked like.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

Whether the original idea to move O'Reilly came from ownership or executive, the idea that he had to be moved prior to paying the bonus was definitely on ownership. 

I agree with you. That was my point. I certainly understand why the organization, and most notably the owner, would be upset with a highly paid player who was soon to collect a sizeable bonus publicly expressing his unhappiness with the team he was on. However, by reacting too quickly to dispatch him before a fair-value deal could be worked out it ended up being an act of self-sabotage. 

It's not unfair to say that because of the two deals that I mentioned (the first round pick for Lenher and the ROR deal) this franchise was demonstrably set back. Instead of building on what it had it had to fill the holes that it dug. 

[7+6=13]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

I agree with you. That was my point. I certainly understand why the organization, and most notably the owner, would be upset with a highly paid player who was soon to collect a sizeable bonus publicly expressing his unhappiness with the team he was on. However, by reacting too quickly to dispatch him before a fair-value deal could be worked out it ended up being an act of self-sabotage. 

It's not unfair to say that because of the two deals that I mentioned (the first round pick for Lenher and the ROR deal) this franchise was demonstrably set back. Instead of building on what it had it had to fill the holes that it dug. 

Is it wrong to mention that in ROR's last year with us we had 62 points - 68 pts this year in 13 less games - and 76 the previous year?  

ROR went to an excellent team and he thrived, so what?  We stunk with him.

I fully understand our biggest need is likely 2C and it's easy to correlate ROR to that.  I'm still glad ROR isn't our 2C.  

When I think about how ROR expressed his frustration and how Eichel express his - I see two entirely different things.  Not that I'm happy our franchise player is frustrated.

 

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

Eriksson is less effective than Michael Frolik and has been for some time.

Even if you prefer Boeser to Reinhart (I'm not going to get into that except to say they both have elite hair), the difference is certainly not the $6 million anchor that is Eriksson. Spend that cash on real upgrades.

I'm not in any way suggesting Eriksson is any good really but I do think he is better than Frolik. Maybe paired with other Swedes, different style, maybe he can still generate a few goals. Maybe not. I'd chance it to get Boeser.

I suppose ultimately it comes down to knowing what Reinhart's number is. If his agent is planning to hold the desperate team hostage like Skinner did with JBot it'd be better to avoid that rather than meeting his price and being saddled with 2 long term underachievers (if that happened, you know it's possible, you know he's been up and down etc etc, maybe it wouldn't but do you really want to risk it on him? Does he strike confidence in you? Not me.)

You can argue about Reinhart's hockey sense and completeness or whatever but Boeser is a sniper with an accurate shot and paired with Jack I think he could put up Pasternak type numbers. Something Reinhart won't.

I mean I hear you, if we spent that 6 million wisely on a top 2C that'd be a good idea, but other than the wishful Cirelli trade scenario I don't see that happening. I don't believe many players will want to come here and I don't believe they will spend at all really in free agency. hence, trying to think outside the 2C box. Boeser is an upgrade.

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

Is it wrong to mention that in ROR's last year with us we had 62 points - 68 pts this year in 13 less games - and 76 the previous year?  

ROR went to an excellent team and he thrived, so what?  We stunk with him.

I fully understand our biggest need is likely 2C and it's easy to correlate ROR to that.  I'm still glad ROR isn't our 2C.  

When I think about how ROR expressed his frustration and how Eichel express his - I see two entirely different things.  Not that I'm happy our franchise player is frustrated.

 

The issue isn't that ROR got traded. The issue is that he got traded in an imbalanced deal. It's obvious to me that this deal was forced before a reasonable deal could be made because the organization wasn't willing to wait for a better deal because it didn't want to pay him a bonus.  

ROR was tired of the losing and publicly expressed his frustration. Big freaking deal! So the response by the organization was to jettison a key player on the team and get less than value back. That makes no sense. That's like getting into a duel and before the count down is finished you shoot yourself in the foot. How smart is that?  

You can minimize how damaging this trade fiasco was but the reality is that this foolish transaction still haunts this troubled franchise because it is still trying to fill the void left by the departed player. So what is the lesson to be learned? Acting in a dumb manner is not a smart way to do business!

[dudacek]

11 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not in any way suggesting Eriksson is any good really but I do think he is better than Frolik. Maybe paired with other Swedes, different style, maybe he can still generate a few goals. Maybe not. I'd chance it to get Boeser.

I suppose ultimately it comes down to knowing what Reinhart's number is. If his agent is planning to hold the desperate team hostage like Skinner did with JBot it'd be better to avoid that rather than meeting his price and being saddled with 2 long term underachievers (if that happened, you know it's possible, you know he's been up and down etc etc, maybe it wouldn't but do you really want to risk it on him? Does he strike confidence in you? Not me.)

You can argue about Reinhart's hockey sense and completeness or whatever but Boeser is a sniper with an accurate shot and paired with Jack I think he could put up Pasternak type numbers. Something Reinhart won't.

I mean I hear you, if we spent that 6 million wisely on a top 2C that'd be a good idea, but other than the wishful Cirelli trade scenario I don't see that happening. I don't believe many players will want to come here and I don't believe they will spend at all really in free agency. hence, trying to think outside the 2C box. Boeser is an upgrade.

Reinhart’s agent has no leverage to hold a desperate team hostage. The Sabres hold Sam’s rights for another two years

[7+6=13]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

The issue isn't that ROR got traded. The issue is that he got traded in an imbalanced deal. It's obvious to me that this deal was forced before a reasonable deal could be made because the organization wasn't willing to wait for a better deal because it didn't want to pay him a bonus.  

ROR was tired of the losing and publicly expressed his frustration. Big freaking deal! So the response by the organization was to jettison a key player on the team and get less than value back. That makes no sense. That's like getting into a duel and before the count down is finished you shoot yourself in the foot. How smart is that?  

You can minimize how damaging this trade fiasco was but the reality is that this foolish transaction still haunts this troubled franchise because it is still trying to fill the void left by the departed player. So what is the lesson to be learned? Acting in a dumb manner is not a smart way to do business!

That's actually not what he did.

I wasn't speaking to the value of the trade.

[GASabresIUFAN]

10 hours ago, dudacek said:

This was Botterill’s plan. It might have worked if he knew what a good player looked like.

What a load of BS.  You can criticize Jbot for blowing the ROR trade.  You can criticize that he didn't acquire enough good forwards.  You can argue he was to money puck oriented and drafted to many D early.  However he does know what a good player looks like. He acquired Lazar, Montour, Miller, Kahun, Skinner, Scandella, and Jokiharju for scraps.  All good players.  He patiently brought along Ullmark and Olofsson.  He kept them while dumping dead weight like Bailey and Baptiste.  Even Vesey, while not spectacular, gave us our money's worth in solid two way play.  Also his drafts are also showing solid promise, especially when compared to DR and TM.  From TM's 3 seasons and 25 picks we have  exactly three players, Eichel, Reinhart and VO.  His drafts produced two other NHL players (Nylander and Lemieux), one he traded and Nylander is a bust for a top 8 pick, which Jbot salvaged with the Joki trade.  Jbot's 18 picks are still maturing, but 11 are still on an NHL path, with Dahlin a fixture and Cozens and Mitts fighting for roster spots next season.  

No GM is perfect and they all make mistakes (Frolik for example), but to say he doesn't know a good player is BS.

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

Take off your rose coloured glasses.

Jokiharju and Kahun look like good moves.

Lazar is a fourth-liner.

Skinner is not a $9 million hockey player.

The Wild have a solid 3rd liner in Foligno left over from the Scandella trade. We have nothing.

Johansson, Montour and Miller have yet to justify the prices he paid for them, maybe because not one of them was brought in to fill the role he is best suited to play.

Botterill signed Pilut, buried him in the minors then let him walk. 

He thought Tage Thompson and Casey Mittelstadt were ready for the  NHL.

He squandered assets and/or cap space on Sheary, Vesey, Beaulieu, Pouliot, Hutton, Nolan, Josefson, Sobotka, Berglund, Hunwick, Frolik, Simmonds, O’Regan, Wilson, Redmond, Hickey, Tennyson, Chad Johnson, Griffiths, Elie, Gilmour and Dalton Smith thinking that colossal bag of excrement might actually contain something to make the Buffalo Sabres better.

It’s an overall body of ill-considered moves and misjudged talent that is positively jaw-dropping when you hold it up to the microscope.

Edited July 15, 2020 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

58 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Take off your rose coloured glasses.

Jokiharju and Kahun look like good moves.

Lazar is a fourth-liner. We acquired for nothing and has the potential of replacing Larsson for a lot less.

Skinner is not a $9 million hockey player. No, but he was acquired for nothing and that was what this fan base wanted and that overpayment was necessary to keep him.  Also I think much of his issues last year came down to usage by the HC.  

The Wild have a solid 3rd liner in Foligno left over from the Scandella trade. We have nothing. He has been mostly a 4th line player for them averaging about 12 min a night. Regardless he was a good player Jbot acquired, is he not?  

Johansson, Montour and Miller have yet to justify the prices he paid for them, maybe because not one of them was brought in to fill the role he is best suited to play. He paid nothing for Miller, and both he and Montour were misused by RK for all of last season.  How is that Jbot’s fault?  How is it Jbot’s fault that another player also acquired in Jokiharju outplayed Miller.  That sounds like fostering competition.  Same for Pilut.  

Botterill signed Pilut, buried him in the minors then let him walk.  He acquired him for nothing to help depth and he didn’t outplay the guys ahead of him on the depth chart that made up the 9th best team at EV last year.  That again doesn’t mean he isn’t a good player.  He also didn’t let him walk. Last I looked FAs can choose where they play.

He thought Tage Thompson and Casey Mittelstadt were ready for the  NHL. Ok, but are they aren’t bad players. Just not ready. My guess is we find out this coming season that both are capable NHL players with long futures.

He squandered assets and/or cap space on Sheary, Vesey, Beaulieu, Pouliot, Hutton, Nolan, Josefson, Sobotka, Berglund, Hunwick, Frolik, Simmonds, O’Regan, Wilson, Redmond, Hickey, Tennyson, Chad Johnson, Griffiths, Elie, Gilmour and Dalton Smith thinking that colossal bag of excrement might actually contain something to make the Buffalo Sabres better. Most of these guys were acquired for depth; mostly for the AHL.  Redmond, Elie, Gilmour etc filled their roles perfectly and helped turn the Amerks into a good team.  Nothing wrong with that.  Some were bad moves like Frolik, but most were inconsequential moves.  Go through any GM’s history and you’ll see the same thing.

It’s an overall body of ill-considered moves and misjudged talent that is positively jaw-dropping when you hold it up to the microscope.

Some of these criticisms of roster construction and use of cap are valid.  However his key acquisitions have been or are solid players.  Using depth players acquired mostly for the AHL as vindication that he can’t evaluate good players isn’t fair when you compare him to depth moves by other GMs, especially when guys like Redmond, Smith, Gilmour, and Tennyson had a positive impact on the organization and filled in reasonably in the NHL when called upon for AAAA players.  

Maybe our definition of good players are different.  I look at what a player is supposed to be and did we get that? For example Lazar.  He was acquired for depth, primarily for the top of the AHL and turned out to earn a role in the NHL.  Calling him only a 4th line player diminishes the smart acquisition of a solid depth for nothing.  

 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[sweetlou]

Simple trade of Reinhart and Risto to Calgary for Monahan and Hanifin??

Of course I pick up Tuch from Vegas for Montour to play RW on Jack's line.