SABRES 0311 Posted July 20, 2020 Report Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, JohnC said: If the Sabres can't get a 2C from the market because the price is too rich then a fallback position could be to bring in a very good second line winger and give Cozens a chance to center that line. If he is not quite ready then a short term veteran could be brought in as a temporary center solution for the second line. I'm more open and willing than most here to throw Cozens in the second center mix. 3 minutes ago, Thorny said: Absolutely not, Mr. Botterill Yeah man I hope Cozens pans out but the center position can be tricky. Filling that 2C spot would mean a good number of minutes. The season takes its toll and young players need to build that endurance. If he gets rushed he may go the way Grigorenko. I’m fine with Cozens doing time in the minors. If the price is too high I can see going for a good winger though. Then again like the commercial says, give extra get extra. If you want a 2C you’re gonna have to send something the other way.
Tondas Posted July 20, 2020 Report Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: Risto never shied away from playing the body. It’s good defensively but I’m not sold that it’s a deterrent against shenanigans. As far as who or what players need protection from there are still guys like Wilson out there. Not as prevalent as times past but that type of player is a threat to the health of others. Having played since 1971, I may be behind the times. But in my day, it wasn't the tenacious guys that were hard to play against. They were pesky and challenging. But I was a defenseman. And being chased into the corner with a forward 20 pounds heavier than me and nailing me into the boards. THAT was being tough to play against. I remember more than once, after the game was over and we were in the handshake line, I'd see the guy that was nailing me time and time again, and we'd both say, F"*ck You", and both burst out laughing. What a great sport! Edited July 20, 2020 by Tondas 2
JohnC Posted July 20, 2020 Report Posted July 20, 2020 12 minutes ago, Thorny said: *Absolutely* not, Mr. Botterill. Would instantly tarnish the new GM's rep in my eyes. He'd be repeating the biggest mistake of the last GM's three year tenure. The veteran 2C (would except TRUE 3C playing capable stop gap) needs to be on this roster for Cozens to hypothetically (though, it's unlikely) beat out for the role, not something we attempt to acquire mid season after we have zero NHL Cs behind Eichel again and are 10 points out of a playoff spot. We've seen our recent track record with in season additions. Add centres. It's the mandate. I'm not against adding a center who can play the 2C spot. I don't know anyone here who is. But the issue comes down to what is the cost. Much of the discussion here revolves around the Cirelli fixation. It's probable that he will be re-signed in Tampa. And if he is moved it is still unlikely that he will end up in Buffalo. The Cirelli plan needs to be placed where it should be place i.e. the fantasy world of make believe. Cozens will come into camp and will show where he is at as a NHL player. I'm confident that his rush to the NHL is not a reprise of the Mittelstadt rush to the league. Mitts was simply not ready then and maybe (hope not) isn't ready now. I know you are not receptive to the idea about Cozens being assigned to the second line but I'm more open than most. What I'm not willing to do is strip this thin team for a 2C when the hope is that Cozens will be ready to assume that spot in his second year.
Thorner Posted July 20, 2020 Report Posted July 20, 2020 The cost of not adding a capable 2C is much higher than anything we'd have to pay to get one. There is no acceptable scenario where we enter into training camp with Cozens in the driver seat for getting the spot. 2 2
JohnC Posted July 20, 2020 Report Posted July 20, 2020 15 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: Yeah man I hope Cozens pans out but the center position can be tricky. Filling that 2C spot would mean a good number of minutes. The season takes its toll and young players need to build that endurance. If he gets rushed he may go the way [Grigorenko. I’m fine with Cozens doing time in the minors. If the price is too high I can see going for a good winger though. Then again like the commercial says, give extra get extra. If you want a 2C you’re gonna have to send something the other way. Cozens is in no way, shape or form a Grigorenko caliber of prospect. Cozens is a better talent, in better shape and much more mature.
Thorner Posted July 20, 2020 Report Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, JohnC said: I'm not against adding a center who can play the 2C spot. I don't know anyone here who is. But the issue comes down to what is the cost. Much of the discussion here revolves around the Cirelli fixation. It's probable that he will be re-signed in Tampa. And if he is moved it is still unlikely that he will end up in Buffalo. The Cirelli plan needs to be placed where it should be place i.e. the fantasy world of make believe. Cozens will come into camp and will show where he is at as a NHL player. I'm confident that his rush to the NHL is not a reprise of the Mittelstadt rush to the league. Mitts was simply not ready then and maybe (hope not) isn't ready now. I know you are not receptive to the idea about Cozens being assigned to the second line but I'm more open than most. What I'm not willing to do is strip this thin team for a 2C when the hope is that Cozens will be ready to assume that spot in his second year. The bolded is a very poor way to build a hockey team, sorry. - - - The rest, I've grown ridiculously tired of the "but WHO is even available?! and "but at what cost?!" arguments. Every other team adds centres but us. Every year after the fact we see that these players DID in fact move (JT Miller) but just not to us. How many years in a row are we going to play with no centres behind Jack? There's just not other logical conclusion - we need to add centres this off season. Edited July 20, 2020 by Thorny 1
JohnC Posted July 20, 2020 Report Posted July 20, 2020 Just now, Thorny said: The bolded is a very poor way to build a hockey team, sorry. Odds are that the Sabres will work out a deal to get a 2C player. I'm not sure the acquisition will meet your lofty standards. When you can't afford a Mercedes Benz then you have to be willing to accept a higher end Toyota.
SABRES 0311 Posted July 20, 2020 Report Posted July 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, JohnC said: Cozens is in no way, shape or form a Grigorenko caliber of prospect. Cozens is a better talent, in better shape and much more mature. Yeah but very few can make that immediate transition to the NHL. If he proves able then so be it. The physical attributes may be there but whether he can put it all together at the NHL level is yet to be seen. 1
Thorner Posted July 20, 2020 Report Posted July 20, 2020 Just now, JohnC said: Odds are that the Sabres will work out a deal to get a 2C player. I'm not sure the acquisition will meet your lofty standards. When you can't afford a Mercedes Benz then you have to be willing to accept a higher end Toyota. 35 minutes ago, Thorny said: *Absolutely* not, Mr. Botterill. Would instantly tarnish the new GM's rep in my eyes. He'd be repeating the biggest mistake of the last GM's three year tenure. The potential placeholder veteran 2C (would except TRUE 3C playing capable stop-gap) needs to be on this roster for Cozens to hypothetically (though, it's unlikely) beat out for the role, not something we attempt to acquire mid season after we have zero NHL Cs behind Eichel again and are 10 points out of a playoff spot. We've seen our recent track record with in season additions. Add centres. It's the mandate. Pointless exercise.
SABRES 0311 Posted July 20, 2020 Report Posted July 20, 2020 15 minutes ago, Tondas said: Having played since 1971, I may be behind the times. But in my day, it wasn't the tenacious guys that were hard to play against. They were pesky and challenging. But I was a defenseman. And being chased into the corner with a forward 20 pounds heavier than me and nailing me into the boards. THAT was being tough to play against. I remember more than once, after the game was over and we were in the handshake line, I'd see the guy that was nailing me time and time again, and we'd both say, F"*ck You", and both burst out laughing. What a great sport! I was a center. It was always one of those oh $h** moments when I went into the corners. South Buffalo always seemed to have huge guys too. 2
Tondas Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: I was a center. It was always one of those oh $h** moments when I went into the corners. South Buffalo always seemed to have huge guys too. Too funny, and I can tell you played. It's one of those eye roll moments where you're like, "This is not going to end well and I hope I survive!" Don't turn the puck over and wait for help, my ass. Edited July 21, 2020 by Tondas 1
Andrew Amerk Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 31 minutes ago, JohnC said: I'm not against adding a center who can play the 2C spot. I don't know anyone here who is. But the issue comes down to what is the cost. Much of the discussion here revolves around the Cirelli fixation. It's probable that he will be re-signed in Tampa. And if he is moved it is still unlikely that he will end up in Buffalo. The Cirelli plan needs to be placed where it should be place i.e. the fantasy world of make believe. I actually think it’s more improbable that Cirelli gets re-signed by TBL, and the reasons have been outlined.
dudacek Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) 43 minutes ago, JohnC said: I'm not against adding a center who can play the 2C spot. I don't know anyone here who is. But the issue comes down to what is the cost. Much of the discussion here revolves around the Cirelli fixation. It's probable that he will be re-signed in Tampa. And if he is moved it is still unlikely that he will end up in Buffalo. The Cirelli plan needs to be placed where it should be place i.e. the fantasy world of make believe. It is. What else did you thing the trade rumours and speculation thread was for? ? Edited July 21, 2020 by dudacek
SABRES 0311 Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 48 minutes ago, JohnC said: I'm not against adding a center who can play the 2C spot. I don't know anyone here who is. But the issue comes down to what is the cost. Much of the discussion here revolves around the Cirelli fixation. It's probable that he will be re-signed in Tampa. And if he is moved it is still unlikely that he will end up in Buffalo. The Cirelli plan needs to be placed where it should be place i.e. the fantasy world of make believe.
kas23 Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 2 hours ago, LGR4GM said: Protect them from what? When was the last time Risto protected them? How did he do it? Hard to play against in my book means tenacious. Eichel is hard to play against. ROR was hard to play against. When I think of hard to play against, I think of Barnaby smiling with his mouth full of metal teeth. That team was a bitch to play against. When they weren’t grinding you down, they were eff’ing with you. And it was constant. 3
Marvin Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 IMHO, any plan that expects Cozens to be in the NHL next season or the year after is fatally flawed. There is no good reason to assume that he can make the transition to a complete season of the NHL grind without a couple of years in the minors. If he does, great, we have options. Signing 3 guys who are all clear 3C's at those prices for 2 seasons is preferable to expecting Cozens to be a 2C in the next 2 years. Ice 4 NHL lines next season. Have a line worth of NHL-ready propects handy. 1
dudacek Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 Dylan Cozens NHLe this year was 41 points. That suggests he should be playing regular minutes on the Sabres next year, but not as a 2C. 1
dudacek Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) And since we’re on the topic of projections and trade bait, Tage Thompson’s NHLe after scoring 21 points in 24 AHL games is 35. Mittelstadt’s was 28. Arttu Ruotsalainen’s was 38. Victor Olofsson’s two years ago was 38. Edited July 21, 2020 by dudacek
Andrew Amerk Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 35 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said: IMHO, any plan that expects Cozens to be in the NHL next season or the year after is fatally flawed. There is no good reason to assume that he can make the transition to a complete season of the NHL grind without a couple of years in the minors. If he does, great, we have options. Signing 3 guys who are all clear 3C's at those prices for 2 seasons is preferable to expecting Cozens to be a 2C in the next 2 years. Ice 4 NHL lines next season. Have a line worth of NHL-ready propects handy. Various experts saying Cozens is the top player not playing in the NHL right now are credible reasons why he should be in the NHL next year - and he’s not eligible for AHL. In the same vein, he shouldn’t be counted on to be our 2C next season either. 1 minute ago, SABRES 0311 said: What is NHLe? Since we live in an analytics world now, it’s the projected translation of how many points he would score in the NHL based on his scoring in his current league. 2
dudacek Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 First link is a calculator (which I think is dated), the 2nd an explanation https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/frozenpool_nhle.php https://cj-turtoro.shinyapps.io/NNHLe-writeup/
SABRES 0311 Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 12 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:Since we live in an analytics world now, it’s the projected translation of how many points he would score in the NHL based on his scoring in his current league. Thank you
sabresparaavida Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 8 hours ago, dudacek said: And since we’re on the topic of projections and trade bait, Tage Thompson’s NHLe after scoring 21 points in 24 AHL games is 35. Mittelstadt’s was 28. Arttu Ruotsalainen’s was 38. Victor Olofsson’s two years ago was 38. If Tage, Cozens, and Ruotsalainen could come in and produce like that on a 3rd line, that would be amazing. It would give us cap space, a good (at least offensive) 3rd line, and give us the opportunity to work on our top 6 with some salary coming in. However, I doubt some of them are ready for a 3rd line role, and likely would not produce at that level.
JohnC Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 12 hours ago, dudacek said: It is. What else did you thing the trade rumours and speculation thread was for? ? There is a difference between earthly rumors and Martian out of this world rumors. ?
dudacek Posted July 21, 2020 Report Posted July 21, 2020 On 6/28/2020 at 9:46 AM, dudacek said: History says Tampa should get something done, but man are they in trouble. They have 10 forwards and 3 defencemen under contract. They have to sign 5-7 players to fill out their roster. They have 5.4 million in cap space. Let’s say they promote three prospects or sign minimum wage vets to take care of half those slots. Then you are left with $3 million to re-sign or replace half your starting defence (Sergachev, Cernak, Shattenkirk) as well as Cirelli Every significant contract on their roster comes with a complete no-trade clause except Point and Killorn, who has a modified NTC. Let’s say they find a partner and move Killorn out for a pick. That leaves $7.5 to sign or replace Killorn, Shattenkirk, Sergachev, Cernak and Cirelli. If someone hit Cirelli with an $7 million offer sheet, what are they going to do? I think its fantasyland that they would want to trade him. I also think its fantasyland that they haven't considered the option, considering their situation.
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