2020-21 Trade Rumors and Speculation

[dudacek]

9 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Would you do Couture(1.5mil retained) for Okposo, Johansson and #8?

I'd certainly give it thought.

I'd give it a thought too: fixes the 2C problem for a couple years while giving us another $4 million in cap room; that's hard to do.

But #8 is too much to give up for the back-end issues with Couture's contract.

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, freester said:

We can’t give up #8 with a flat cap looming. We have no high end young talent on entry level contracts except Cozens 

Just reading an older piece on draft pick valuation. The value of a top 10 draft pick is astronomical compared to even a few picks later, just in terms of the odds of getting real talent.

You factor in the flat cap and #8 is gold.

(As to the bold, there is that Dahlin fellow)

[freester]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Just reading an older piece on draft pick valuation. The value of a top 10 draft pick is astronomical compared to even a few picks later, just in terms of the odds of getting real talent.

You factor in the flat cap and #8 is gold.

(As to the bold, there is that Dahlin fellow)

We will be in cap trouble very soon. We need good young cheap players. You get those by drafting well. Skinner’s and Okposo’s contracts are both brutal in a fixed future cap world. 

[Thorner]

On 7/18/2020 at 11:31 AM, dudacek said:

If the Sabres and Jets swapped goalies last fall, the Sabres would be playing right now while the Jets fans would be arguing about which players to give up to get a 2C.

Jets are one of the teams with a bleaker long term view at centre than Buffalo, as they’ve built from the wing in. If Cozens pans out, it’s not even close. 

Their current 2C is an aging perennial injury concern on a poor contract and they have nothing in the way of young prospect Cs. 

[ubkev]

6 hours ago, tom webster said:

I don’t think it’s happening but not because of NTC. He’s a huge Bills fan and spends a lot of time in area.

I'm a huge Bills fan who used to live in the area and I would definitely have the sabres on my no trade list.

[Eleven]

I don't care if Couture is Russert's grandson.   No, I do not make that trade, and I don't give him a 7 year contract even if he's a free agent.  Have we not seen enough of the Sabres being burned by this in the last ten years?!

[Huckleberry]

On 7/19/2020 at 8:00 AM, thewookie1 said:

Would you do Couture(1.5mil retained) for Okposo, Johansson and #8?

I'd certainly give it thought.

We need that 8th pick to help with out cap situation next few years.

[thewookie1]

8 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

We need that 8th pick to help with out cap situation next few years.

We must have a 2C or else that won't even matter.

[Taro T]

On 7/16/2020 at 3:30 PM, darksabre said:

The only player on this whole team that is untouchable is Jack. I'd even trade Dahlin for the right return. 

Eichel has company in the untouchable category w/ Dahlin, IMHO.  Don't know that he'll live up to the hype of being another Potvin or Robinson (but won't rule it out), but would be surprised if he isn't at least a slightly better Hedman when he's in his prime.  Teams would have to give up an incredible bounty to land Hedman & truly believe when all is said and done Radsmus will be better.

On 7/16/2020 at 3:41 PM, Thorny said:

 

He’s absolutely not untouchable. He was pretty good, not great, and also became more prone to giveaways as the season went on. 

I feel the same way - I obviously like him well enough and am definitely not seeking trade him. But these types of players should never be “untouchable”. Why should he be? It’s all about the return. 

As long as we don’t have the best player in the league, theoretically no one is untouchable for me. 

 

On 7/16/2020 at 3:55 PM, Thorny said:

It's funny how these narratives develop - Jokiharju's take away to give away ratio was dead last on our team. 

 

On 7/16/2020 at 5:36 PM, JohnC said:

Joki was 20 yrs old last year. How many defensemen that young can play as well as he did in this league? You can use stats in his rookie year to diminish his play. After watching him play last season it isn't a stretch to project that he is going to be better than a good player. His performance level is not static. In another couple to few years he is going to be an established second pairing player for us. For me he is a no touch player.  

My gut feel is that Jokiharju ends up either a very good 4th D-man or an adequate 3rd D-man. Neither of which is untouchable as the team currently has 2-3 other RHD's that are in that category.

Jokiharju looked "great" paired with Scandella but not nearly as good on other pairings.  He'll still get better, but really don't expect his ceiling is much higher than what we've seen to date.  (Tyler Myers NEVER looked as good as he did his rookie year, not even after they brought Tallinder back again.  Sometimes these young guys do play near their peak at an early age.)  Too many Gragnani's have come through town hyped to the extraordinaire to be fully sold on Joker being any more than a 4 LT & possibly only a 5.

Wouldn't be trying to trade him as my guess is Ristolainen or Montour would bring back more as part of a trade package, but for the right deal would part with Henri in a heartbeat.  (And he's a good player that is worth watching play; but for the right offer ...)

And as a total aside: if Montour had been healthy at the end of TC, would Joker have gotten any time with the Sabres this season?  Montour & Bogosian both being on IR created the opportunity for him to stay up but he hadn't beat out any of the 3 we'd expected to see in the lineup had they all been healthy.  And, he would've definitely been in Ra-cha-cha if all 4 RHD vets were healthy & very likely even if only 3 of them were healthy.  Good for him, he made the best of an unexpected opportunity & at times early in the year was arguably their best D-man.  (Doesn't change the fact he was still only 2nd pairing quality. ? )

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Wouldn't be trying to trade him as my guess is Ristolainen or Montour would bring back more as part of a trade package, but for the right deal would part with Henri in a heartbeat.  (And he's a good player that is worth watching play; but for the right offer ...)

Are we really sure that Risto and Montour have more trade value than Jokiharju?  I’m honestly not sure of that.

[Tondas]

26 minutes ago, Curt said:

Are we really sure that Risto and Montour have more trade value than Jokiharju?  I’m honestly not sure of that.

I agree that Joki has more value than Risto, but If we trade Risto, this soft team becomes even more soft.  I think JBOT thought, "We need speed and skill", which is fine.  But our toughness, and hard to play against is not existent.  They even had to bring that one kid up from Rochester for the Tampa game just in case.  Borgen won't fix that even if he is ready for the NHL.  Who is going to protect Jack, Dahlin, Victor, Sam, Skinner, Joki?  The game has changed, but there still needs to be a deterrent to take liberties.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Tondas

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Eichel has company in the untouchable category w/ Dahlin, IMHO.  Don't know that he'll live up to the hype of being another Potvin or Robinson (but won't rule it out), but would be surprised if he isn't at least a slightly better Hedman when he's in his prime.  Teams would have to give up an incredible bounty to land Hedman & truly believe when all is said and done Radsmus will be better.

 

 

My gut feel is that Jokiharju ends up either a very good 4th D-man or an adequate 3rd D-man. Neither of which is untouchable as the team currently has 2-3 other RHD's that are in that category.

Jokiharju looked "great" paired with Scandella but not nearly as good on other pairings.  He'll still get better, but really don't expect his ceiling is much higher than what we've seen to date.  (Tyler Myers NEVER looked as good as he did his rookie year, not even after they brought Tallinder back again.  Sometimes these young guys do play near their peak at an early age.)  Too many Gragnani's have come through town hyped to the extraordinaire to be fully sold on Joker being any more than a 4 LT & possibly only a 5.

Wouldn't be trying to trade him as my guess is Ristolainen or Montour would bring back more as part of a trade package, but for the right deal would part with Henri in a heartbeat.  (And he's a good player that is worth watching play; but for the right offer ...)

And as a total aside: if Montour had been healthy at the end of TC, would Joker have gotten any time with the Sabres this season?  Montour & Bogosian both being on IR created the opportunity for him to stay up but he hadn't beat out any of the 3 we'd expected to see in the lineup had they all been healthy.  And, he would've definitely been in Ra-cha-cha if all 4 RHD vets were healthy & very likely even if only 3 of them were healthy.  Good for him, he made the best of an unexpected opportunity & at times early in the year was arguably their best D-man.  (Doesn't change the fact he was still only 2nd pairing quality. ? )

I appreciate your response and excellent analysis. But I disagree with you. He's a 20 yr old with upside. (my opinion) Because of his youth is why I am placing more value on him than most others. Joki is not a flashy player and going to dazzle you like Dahlin. He is more of a steady and smart player who plays with maturity beyond his age. In fact, he has shown some indications that he has some growth potential to the offensive side of his game. If you are willing to be patient you will be surprised with how more expansive his game will be. 

[Curt]

7 minutes ago, Tondas said:

I agree that Joki has more value than Risto, but If we trade Risto, this soft team becomes even more soft.  I think JBOT thought, "We need speed and skill, which is fine.  But our toughness, and hard to play against is not existent.  They even had to bring that one kid up from Rochester for the Tampa game just in case.  Borgen won't fix that even if he is ready for the NHL.  Who is going to protect Jack, Dahlin, Victor, Sam, Skinner, Joki.  The game has changed, but there still needs to be a deterrent to take liberties.

I get it, kinda, but for me, that’s not a significant reason to not trade Risto.  He has always been more of a fake tough guy.  How often does he do anything more than give a little shove?  I don’t think anyone is actually afraid of him.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

I appreciate your response and excellent analysis. But I disagree with you. He's a 20 yr old with upside. (my opinion) Because of his youth is why I am placing more value on him than most others. Joki is not a flashy player and going to dazzle you like Dahlin. He is more of a steady and smart player who plays with maturity beyond his age. In fact, he has shown some indications that he has some growth potential to the offensive side of his game. If you are willing to be patient you will be surprised with how more expansive his game will be. 

Fair enough.  And definitely hope he's better than a 3 or 4 in his prime.  If he could be a true 2 the Sabres could have their own version of Pronger/Neidermayer (or at least Keith/Seabrook) brewing.  Just doubt that's his ceiling.  And he could end up as Dahlin's partner LT even if he isn't a true 2 and still be good enough because Dahlin will be that good.

But right now, if they have to part with him to get the 2C, won't be thrilled but won't be despondent either.  (Now, if they DON'T get a real 2C that's where true despondence will set in.)

[Taro T]

39 minutes ago, Curt said:

Are we really sure that Risto and Montour have more trade value than Jokiharju?  I’m honestly not sure of that.

Don't know that we'll ever know that for sure as 3 of the 4 RHD will likely be back and almost definitely 2 of them will be back.  And we won't know what Adams could've gotten for the guys that stay.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Taro T

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Fair enough.  And definitely hope he's better than a 3 or 4 in his prime.  If he could be a true 2 the Sabres could have their own version of Pronger/Neidermayer (or at least Keith/Seabrook) brewing.  Just doubt that's his ceiling.  And he could end up as Dahlin's partner LT even if he isn't a true 2 and still be good enough because Dahlin will be that good.

But right now, if they have to part with him to get the 2C, won't be thrilled but won't be despondent either. (Now, if they DON'T get a real 2C that's where true despondence will set in.)

If the Sabres can't get a 2C from the market because the price is too rich then a fallback position could be to bring in a very good second line winger and give Cozens a chance to center that line. If he is not quite ready then a short term veteran could be brought in as a temporary center solution for the second line. I'm more open and willing than most here to throw Cozens in the second center mix. 

[Tondas]

13 minutes ago, Curt said:

I get it, kinda, but for me, that’s not a significant reason to not trade Risto.  He has always been more of a fake tough guy.  How often does he do anything more than give a little shove?  I don’t think anyone is actually afraid of him.

I'll buy that.  But if we get rid of the only fake tough guy, what's left?

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

If the Sabres can't get a 2C from the market because the price is too rich then a fallback position could be to bring in a very good second line winger and give Cozens a chance to center that line. If he is not quite ready then a short term veteran could be brought in as a temporary center solution for the second line. I'm more open and willing than most here to throw Cozens in the second center mix. 

If they bring in a 2C and have bad luck & the guy gets hurt, then so be it, run with plan B, C, or D.  Or, if Cozens (or anybody else they've tried at 2C) simply dominates in camp and wins the job over the outsider, then also so be it.  (And truthfully, that's an absolute best case scenario assuming the guy brought in is a competent 2C, 'cause then you can have 3 scoring lines & ideally still have Larry's line to do the dirty work against the Bergeron line.)  But if Cozens at 2C is effectively plan A because Adams couldn't find a true plan A guy, then a whole lot of people here will be bringing out their inner Liger.  And that WON'T be pretty.  Though it could be comedy gold especially for guys like Ducky who don't have a vested interest in this team.

[Curt]

2 minutes ago, Tondas said:

I'll buy that.  But if we get rid of the only fake tough guy, what's left?

McCabe and Borgen are actual tough guys.

[LGR4GM]

45 minutes ago, Taro T said:

If they bring in a 2C and have bad luck & the guy gets hurt, then so be it, run with plan B, C, or D.  Or, if Cozens (or anybody else they've tried at 2C) simply dominates in camp and wins the job over the outsider, then also so be it.  (And truthfully, that's an absolute best case scenario assuming the guy brought in is a competent 2C, 'cause then you can have 3 scoring lines & ideally still have Larry's line to do the dirty work against the Bergeron line.)  But if Cozens at 2C is effectively plan A because Adams couldn't find a true plan A guy, then a whole lot of people here will be bringing out their inner Liger.  And that WON'T be pretty.  Though it could be comedy gold especially for guys like Ducky who don't have a vested interest in this team.

Idk what this means but I approve. 

[Tondas]

59 minutes ago, Curt said:

McCabe and Borgen are actual tough guys.

I agree @Curt.  That is if they both make the team, and are not injured or traded.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Tondas

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Tondas said:

I agree that Joki has more value than Risto, but If we trade Risto, this soft team becomes even more soft.  I think JBOT thought, "We need speed and skill", which is fine.  But our toughness, and hard to play against is not existent.  They even had to bring that one kid up from Rochester for the Tampa game just in case.  Borgen won't fix that even if he is ready for the NHL.  Who is going to protect Jack, Dahlin, Victor, Sam, Skinner, Joki?  The game has changed, but there still needs to be a deterrent to take liberties.

Protect them from what? When was the last time Risto protected them? How did he do it? 

Hard to play against in my book means tenacious. Eichel is hard to play against. ROR was hard to play against. 

[Tondas]

14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Protect them from what? When was the last time Risto protected them? How did he do it? 

Hard to play against in my book means tenacious. Eichel is hard to play against. ROR was hard to play against. 

Risto always took on the big ones like Ovechkin.  It sent a message.  I'm not saying fighting, but sending a message we won't be f*cked with matters.  Who else will do that if Risto is traded?  And "hard to play against" in my day, and I think in today's date, is getting your ass kicked if you do take liberties on you or your teammates.  Feel free to "OK Boomer on this."

Edited July 20, 2020 by Tondas

[SABRES 0311]

9 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Protect them from what? When was the last time Risto protected them? How did he do it? 

Hard to play against in my book means tenacious. Eichel is hard to play against. ROR was hard to play against. 

 

3 minutes ago, Tondas said:

Risto always took on the big ones like Ovechkin.  It sent a message.  I'm not saying fighting, but sending a message we won't be f*cked with matters.  Who else will do that if Risto is traded?

Risto never shied away from playing the body. It’s good defensively but I’m not sold that it’s a deterrent against shenanigans. As far as who or what players need protection from there are still guys like Wilson out there. Not as prevalent as times past but that type of player is a threat to the health of others. 

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

 If the Sabres can't get a 2C from the market because the price is too rich then a fallback position could be to bring in a very good second line winger and give Cozens a chance to center that line. If he is not quite ready then a short term veteran could be brought in as a temporary center solution for the second line. I'm more open and willing than most here to throw Cozens in the second center mix. 

*Absolutely* not, Mr. Botterill. Would instantly tarnish the new GM's rep in my eyes. He'd be repeating the biggest mistake of the last GM's three year tenure. 

The potential placeholder veteran 2C (would except TRUE  3C playing capable stop-gap) needs to be on this roster for Cozens to hypothetically (though, it's unlikely) beat out for the role, not something we attempt to acquire mid season after we have zero NHL Cs behind Eichel again and are 10 points out of a playoff spot. We've seen our recent track record with in season additions. 

Add centres. It's the mandate. 

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Thorny