Can Samson play 2C?

[PerreaultForever]

16 hours ago, Sakman said:

Swedes typically speak outstanding English. 

Of course. Just meant they could communicate in Swedish (perhaps) so that some of the opposition wouldn't understand them. Doesn't matter, my Swedish Connection idea does not seem very popular anyway. Mojo's a 3rd line player though, that needs to be addressed. 

I kept Skinner with Jack because I saw the character of a Reinhart 2nd line being more of a balanced 2 way line in my mind. I'm well aware we don't have enough good players to create multiple dominant lines, but the idea is to avoid the single track of getting a 2C. If we are looking for RW or 2C we might have a better chance of finding someone that fits rather than another failed attempt (Mojo) to promote 3rd line guys from other teams into 2nd line roles where they aren't as good. 

I certainly don't think we will be successful with a third line made up of Thompson Mittlestadt or Sobodka.........................

[Kristian]

14 hours ago, IKnowPhysics said:

Some WOWY with Jeff, Jack, and Sam.

Short version, in terms of CF%:

When the three of them are together, they are great.  Almost unstoppable.

Eichel benefits from having either Skinner or Reinhart (benefit is mutual).

When Reinhart or Skinner play without Eichel or eachother, they basically play as good as the rest of the team does without Eichel on the ice.  This is subpar and needs improvement.

When Reinhart and Skinner played together without Eichel, it was atrocious.  The sample size was smaller here, but it was still measurably bad.  I don't know what positions were played when this occurred.

This could be down to just Skinner being plain atrocious though....

[Curt]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

I just want to make clear that my post was not an opinion of those players, it is where they actually rankEd among NHL forwards in offensive production this year.

88 forwards had 45 points or more this year, making 44 points the transition between 1st and and 2nd liner.

185 had 30 points or more making it the cut-off between 2nd and 3rd

279 forwards hit 19 points, marking the dividing line between 3rd and 4th line status

@GASabresIUFAN @Curt @Thorny

If you wanted to do that, I think looking at ES scoring only would be more appropriate and informative.

[LGR4GM]

5 hours ago, Kristian said:

This could be down to just Skinner being plain atrocious though....

20 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

When Eichel plays without Jack or Skinner he is worse than when Reinhart or Skinner play solo just looking at Corsi. This is a problem I always have when using WOWY. Good players obviously play better with other good players so expecting them to play better with bad players is not logical. 

Jack solo: 44.33cf% 104.40 TOI

Sam solo: 48.25cf% 84.04 TOI

Jeff solo: 48.26cf% 668.46 TOI

Skinner was better on his own than either of the other two. Skinner got screwed this year because he spent lots of time with no one capable of cashing in on his chaos or helping him create it. 

[Taro T]

How about, instead of trying to force a guy that effectively hasn't played C at the NHL level but has played RW very well for the past 3 or so seasons into the 2C role, we see Adams actually bring in a TRUE 2C?

We've watched this movie (bring in a guy who's played C before either early in his NHL career or at lesser levels but hasn't been an NHL C in years, if ever) before with lesser leading men put into that starring role: Leino, Berglund, Johansson, even Kahun & to a degree Sobotka (not including Mittelstadt, Cozens, nor Thompson in the list, though arguably any/all could also be included as failed 2C experiments to date) and they ALL failed in that role.  (At least Lazar was never attempted to be thrust into that role.)

What possible reason could we have to EXPECT that Reinhart will miraculously be the winger that breaks this lack of a 2C curse?  Heck, at least 2, if not 3 coaches put a borderline 4RW (Rodrigues) into that role ahead of Sam and, sadly, E-Rod came the closest of any of them to filling O'Reilly's skates.

Just bring in a real 2C.  If Adams can't do that, then screw up the 4th line & put Larsson there.  At least he's an actual center.

[Zamboni]

I think Sam could play very well as a 2C with the right wingers.

But at this point I would prefer he stay  on the wing. 1st or 2nd line. 

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, Zamboni said:

I think Sam could play very well as a 2C with the right wingers.

I disagree. Playing him with right wingers wouldn't work. He would need one left winger.

[Xzy89c]

nothing in his game says he will be an nhl center.  Foot speed maybe average.  Not strong.  Defensively maybe average.  he would be a very bad matchup against the number one centers in the league.  Very bad.  

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, Xzy89c said:

nothing in his game says he will be an nhl center.  Foot speed maybe average.  Not strong.  Defensively maybe average.  he would be a very bad matchup against the number one centers in the league.  Very bad.  

Doesn't he match up against them regularly playing on Eichel's line anyway? Feel like if he was "very bad" that would tank the entire line. 

[Thorner]

7 hours ago, Taro T said:

How about, instead of trying to force a guy that effectively hasn't played C at the NHL level but has played RW very well for the past 3 or so seasons into the 2C role, we see Adams actually bring in a TRUE 2C?

We've watched this movie (bring in a guy who's played C before either early in his NHL career or at lesser levels but hasn't been an NHL C in years, if ever) before with lesser leading men put into that starring role: Leino, Berglund, Johansson, even Kahun & to a degree Sobotka (not including Mittelstadt, Cozens, nor Thompson in the list, though arguably any/all could also be included as failed 2C experiments to date) and they ALL failed in that role.  (At least Lazar was never attempted to be thrust into that role.)

What possible reason could we have to EXPECT that Reinhart will miraculously be the winger that breaks this lack of a 2C curse?  Heck, at least 2, if not 3 coaches put a borderline 4RW (Rodrigues) into that role ahead of Sam and, sadly, E-Rod came the closest of any of them to filling O'Reilly's skates.

Just bring in a real 2C.  If Adams can't do that, then screw up the 4th line & put Larsson there.  At least he's an actual center.

Don't really understand why Cozens is listed as an arguable addition to your list as he hasn't played a game yet, but otherwise I am in complete agreement with this post. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Thorny

[Taro T]

Just now, Thorny said:

Don't really understand why Cozens is listed as he hasn't played a game yet, but otherwise I am in complete agreement with this post. 

Strictly for thoroughness.  Same reason Lazar was included.

And, does anybody here put it fully past Botterill to have given Cozrns a legit shot at sticking had he not broke his hand in the prospects tournament?

[Thorner]

Just now, Taro T said:

Strictly for thoroughness.  Same reason Lazar was included.

And, does anybody here put it fully past Botterill to have given Cozrns a legit shot at sticking had he not broke his hand in the prospects tournament?

An astute point. 

[Taro T]

14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Doesn't he match up against them regularly playing on Eichel's line anyway? Feel like if he was "very bad" that would tank the entire line. 

He plays against them, but doesn't necessarily draw the defensive zone coverage of the opposing C nearly as often as Eichel does.  (Though he will sometimes draw that assignment based on the way the transition into their own zone unfurls.)  He is perfectly fine covering the D and the back of the high slot.  And when in a man to man coverage, Eichel's size, strength, speed, & edges can neutralize the opposing C.  He's gotten better at it, but a strong cycle can still get him (Eichel) lost to a degree which really gives us no indication of how Reinhart would fare there but just highlighting that typically that area isn't Sam's responsibility.  

And maybe sometime will go back and check who was the main impetus of the breakdowns against the Pasternak line.  (Those guys have been our #1 line's kryptonite for a while.)  Not sure if those are on Jack, his linemates, or his linemates getting caught/stuck with Jack's normal responsibilities.  (Realizing the D & G also play a role.)

[PalmTreeMafia]

On 7/7/2020 at 11:59 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

From those stats it looks to me like

Skinner should be paired with Jack and Samson should run the 2nd line from the RW slot.

If this works, it probably lessens are need to get a star 2C for now.

Skinner Jack Kahun

VO  2C Reinhart

I really like this lineup for our top-5 forwards. Excluding all UFA's and potential trades and 2020 draft picks, what's our most ideal 4 lines at the moment? Here's what I have:

Skinner - Eichel - Kahun

Olofsson - Cozens - Reinhart

Mittelstadt - Johansson - Thompson

Asplund - Lazar - Okposo

This could work in theory. I don't like forcing Cozens as the 2C so early any more than the rest of you do, but maybe he's a fast learner and will at least have the benefit of playing with two high quality second line wingers. I don't know if there's any internal way around the glaring roster hole weakness at 2C.

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, ManyRasmusFewWins said:

I really like this lineup for our top-5 forwards. Excluding all UFA's and potential trades and 2020 draft picks, what's our most ideal 4 lines at the moment? Here's what I have:

Skinner - Eichel - Kahun

Olofsson - Cozens - Reinhart

Mittelstadt - Johansson - Thompson

Asplund - Lazar - Okposo

This could work in theory. I don't like forcing Cozens as the 2C so early any more than the rest of you do, but maybe he's a fast learner and will at least have the benefit of playing with two high quality second line wingers. I don't know if there's any internal way around the glaring roster hole weakness at 2C.

I think that is a Very reasonable way to best utilize the available talent.

And a stark reminder of how desperately more talent is needed.

[Thorner]

15 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think that is a Very reasonable way to best utilize the available talent.

And a stark reminder of how desperately more talent is needed.

If it’s not even a matter of earning it, and Cozens is force fed into the 2C role, I’d rather leave him in juniors for the year. 

Bring him along with reasonable expectations or don’t bring him up. We can’t afford to screw him up. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Thorny

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

If it’s not even a matter of earning it, and Cozens is force fed into the 2C role, I’d rather leave him in juniors for the year.

Bring him along with reasonable expectations or don’t bring him up. We can’t afford to screw him up. 

There is no reason why he should be sent to the juniors next year. His play is way above that level so there is nothing  for him to learn playing there. If Cozens is placed on the second line as a center or winger and it doesn't work out then put him on a lower line. I just don't understand the fear of playing him there if he shows that he is capable of handling that responsibility in training camp and in the preseason. If he can adequately play on the second line that is fine; if he can't adequately do so then adjust his role where he is more comfortable. The notion that his development will be irreparably damaged if he is given a substantive role in the NHL in his second year makes no sense to me. 

There is no question that Mitts was rushed. He not only wasn't ready to immediately play at the NHL level he didn't earn the promotion to the big league. Cozens right now is probably more physically developed and mature as a player that Mitts is right now. If that isn't the case then for sure he is certainly more physically developed and more mature as a player than when Mitts first entered the league.

Cozens is not as fragile as a player and person as many people think. He will demonstrate what he can handle and what he can't handle. I don't understand this constant fretting about him. 

 

 

[dudacek]

38 minutes ago, JohnC said:

There is no reason why he should be sent to the juniors next year. His play is way above that level so there is nothing  for him to learn playing there. If Cozens is placed on the second line as a center or winger and it doesn't work out then put him on a lower line. I just don't understand the fear of playing him there if he shows that he is capable of handling that responsibility in training camp and in the preseason. If he can adequately play on the second line that is fine; if he can't adequately do so then adjust his role where he is more comfortable. The notion that his development will be irreparably damaged if he is given a substantive role in the NHL in his second year makes no sense to me. 

There is no question that Mitts was rushed. He not only wasn't ready to immediately play at the NHL level he didn't earn the promotion to the big league. Cozens right now is probably more physically developed and mature as a player that Mitts is right now. If that isn't the case then for sure he is certainly more physically developed and more mature as a player than when Mitts first entered the league.

Cozens is not as fragile as a player and person as many people think. He will demonstrate what he can handle and what he can't handle. I don't understand this constant fretting about him. 

 

 

The fear comes from recent past experience, and is baseless — all players are different.

But the underlying, but more important point should not be overlooked: it's less about the dangers to Cozens, and more about the dangers of counting on a player who has yet to play an NHL game to our chances of making the playoffs this season.

[JohnC]

35 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The fear comes from recent past experience, and is baseless — all players are different.

But the underlying, but more important point should not be overlooked: it's less about the dangers to Cozens, and more about the dangers of counting on a player who has yet to play an NHL game to our chances of making the playoffs this season.

I still don't buy the reasoning for such trepidation about the expectations for Cozens. Whatever it is prior to the season (high or low) doesn't preclude the front office from addressing the team's manifest needs in the offseason. The Sabres are not Tampa where it is a loaded team that needs to shed players due to cap stress. The Sabres are a team that needs to add talent to a roster that needs bolstering. If Cozens surprises the organization and  plays at a level higher than expected then that is an uplifting bonus. If he struggles in adjusting to the league and his role is diminished then so be it. Then (hopefully) the added talent can pick up the slack and help to fortify the roster. Again, I stress that whatever plans the organization has to upgrade the roster this offseason should not be predicated on their expectations about this exciting prospect. The Mitts situation was clearly a poorly handled situation. Allowing that miscalculation to influence how Cozens is handled compounds the original mistake. That would be the wrong lesson to be learned. 

[Andrew Amerk]

Why is this always a thing every off season?

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

There is no reason why he should be sent to the juniors next year. His play is way above that level so there is nothing  for him to learn playing there. If Cozens is placed on the second line as a center or winger and it doesn't work out then put him on a lower line. I just don't understand the fear of playing him there if he shows that he is capable of handling that responsibility in training camp and in the preseason. If he can adequately play on the second line that is fine; if he can't adequately do so then adjust his role where he is more comfortable. The notion that his development will be irreparably damaged if he is given a substantive role in the NHL in his second year makes no sense to me. 

There is no question that Mitts was rushed. He not only wasn't ready to immediately play at the NHL level he didn't earn the promotion to the big league. Cozens right now is probably more physically developed and mature as a player that Mitts is right now. If that isn't the case then for sure he is certainly more physically developed and more mature as a player than when Mitts first entered the league.

Cozens is not as fragile as a player and person as many people think. He will demonstrate what he can handle and what he can't handle. I don't understand this constant fretting about him. 

 

 

I think my previous post addresses this. 

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

If it’s not even a matter of earning it, and Cozens is force fed into the 2C role, I’d rather leave him in juniors for the year. 

Bring him along with reasonable expectations or don’t bring him up. We can’t afford to screw him up. 

"Fear", "Fretting".....it's all misplaced in the context of quoting my post. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

The fear comes from recent past experience, and is baseless — all players are different.

But the underlying, but more important point should not be overlooked: it's less about the dangers to Cozens, and more about the dangers of counting on a player who has yet to play an NHL game to our chances of making the playoffs this season.

It's not fear. It's not fretting. 

I'm open to the idea that he'll be an NHLer next season. In fact, that's what I think will happen. I'm even open to the idea, however unlikely, that he'll earn the 2C role next season, too. My argument is that if he earns it, he should be beating out someone that could have adequately played the position sans that unlikely development. 

If there isn't, he's being force-fed. And if he succeeds, they'll have been lucky, not smart. Maybe you river the 2C and it all works out but betting on a rookie being ready for the second most important position in a forward group right out the gate is not a sound wager.

I know you aren't arguing against this but wanted to clarify for @JohnC 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

Cozens being ready to make the team: likely

Thinking that Cozens should not be on the team because Mittelstadt and Girgorenko were rushed: red herring argument

Planning to go into the season with Cozens pencilled in as your 2C: bad management 

[Taro T]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

Cozens being ready to make the team: likely

Thinking that Cozens should not be on the team because Mittelstadt and Girgorenko were rushed: red herring argument

Planning to go into the season with Cozens pencilled in as your 2C: bad management 

Exactly.  Go get a guy that we know can actually play 2C & then if Cozens beats him out you might even be able to make the playoffs with last year's goaltending.  As you will then have a C spine of Eichel, Cozens (who would have earned that 2C spot), 2C, Larsson (or Lazar if Johan walks) with guys that can fill in in a pinch of Johansson, Mittelstadt, Kahun at minimum.

But go in with no additional 2C help & have Cozens play like a rookie who should be 3C at best as the 2C & then the C spine becomes Eichel, Cozens/Johansson/Mittelstadt/Kahun, 2nd best of those, Larsson/Lazar.  Does that really inspire a belief that the draught doesn't stretch to 10 years?

 

[JohnC]

8 hours ago, Thorny said:

It's not fear. It's not fretting. 

I'm open to the idea that he'll be an NHLer next season. In fact, that's what I think will happen. I'm even open to the idea, however unlikely, that he'll earn the 2C role next season, too. My argument is that if he earns it, he should be beating out someone that could have adequately played the position sans that unlikely development. 

If there isn't, he's being force-fed. And if he succeeds, they'll have been lucky, not smart. Maybe you river the 2C and it all works out but betting on a rookie being ready for the second most important position in a forward group right out the gate is not a sound wager.

I know you aren't arguing against this but wanted to clarify for @JohnC 

I appreciate your clarifying comments on this issue. But at least for me the argument about Cozen's role has never been about bestowing anything on him because he was considered a highly rated prospect. The issue is what role will he earn. As I stated before the mistake with how Mitts was handled was that he didn't earn his role and playing time. He was thrusted into a role that he was not prepared for because there was a gaping hole in the lineup created by the ROR debacle. (side note: I'm more inclined to blame the owner rather the GM for that catastrophic trade.)

In general our positions on Cozens are similar. Where I slightly disagree with you and others is that I'm not so worried about Cozens being damaged or his development derailed if struggles early on if that should happen. The difference between Cozens and Mitts when he entered the league is that I believe last year's rookie is more physically and emotionally developed. Or another way of framing it is this guy is not fragile----he is tougher than a lot of people think. He is going to be a gem.