Can Samson play 2C?

[Weave]

8 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think what you are remembering is the lead up to the two stints I describe.

Other than his first camp, I don’t remember any training camp or exhibition games where Sam got a serious look at centre. He flipped back and forth during Housley’s first camp, prior to the Griffith/Pouliot run.

He's had more blank slates to show he has a center's skillset than any other player in my memory.  Hell, I'm pretty sure Ralph said publicly last year that he was looking at Sam at center.

[In The Buff]

You can tell its Peak Offseason when we debate whether Sam can be a center on this team.

Seems it happens every offseason haha. Just goes to show how long we've had this hole on our roster.

I would say since he hasn't played C yet (while on a team badly needing one), we won't be seeing him at C & any help to that position must be found via draft or trade.

[Zamboni]

Posters have their minds already made up about Sam. This is an exercise in futility. 

[LabattBlue]

Either he doesn't want to play at C, he is willing to but sucks at it, or the coaches just want to keep him on Eichel's wing.

 

Bottom line, it looks like Reinhart is a RW going forward.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Something a good portion of this board BITCHED about the entire season. 

Including me

[7+6=13]

We just don't have enough good offensive players.  Why we blame the only good ones we have is beyond me. 

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

We just don't have enough good offensive players.  Why we blame the only good ones we have is beyond me. 

Exactly

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Right. Because all good centres are burners.

Joe Thornton, Henrik Sedin, those guys definitely needed to be moved to wing after sucking as young centres.

How many coaches has Sam played for? They have all come to the same conclusion. I would love to have Sam be capable of playing the 2C spot. I'm sure you will agree that since the departure of ROR there is a desperate need to fill that vacancy. Yet it has not materialized. Why do you think that is the case? As it stands Sam is a first line winger playing with Jack and making it a very productive first line. That's fine with me. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

How many coaches has Sam played for? They have all come to the same conclusion. I would love to have Sam be capable of playing the 2C spot. I'm sure you will agree that since the departure of ROR there is a desperate need to fill that vacancy. Yet it has not materialized. Why do you think that is the case? As it stands Sam is a first line winger playing with Jack and making it a very productive first line. That's fine with me. 

Only 2 since ROR left. Housley and Krueger. 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Only 2 since ROR left. Housley and Krueger. 

They both came to the same conclusion even when there was a major void at the 2C position. 

I'm a Sam fan. He is one of the smartest players on the team if not in the league. It is telling that there is so much talk about filling the void at 2C from the outside when he is on the roster. He's doing fine where he is at on the wing. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by JohnC

[Sabres Fan in NS]

To answer the OP question ... Yes.  Samson can play 2C, but he won't be.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

They both came to the same conclusion even when there was a major void at the 2C position. 

I'm a Sam fan. He is one of the smartest players on the team and if not in the league. It is telling that there is so much talk about filling the void at 2C from the outside when he is on the roster. He's doing fine where he is at on the wing. 

Krueger has never tried Sam at centre that I'm aware of. Housley tried him with two replacement level players, it didn't work, he never tried it again.

Both coaches preferred him at wing given the players they had. I also think Sam prefers wing. He is a good winger and we don't have many. I think he should stay on the wing.

None of these things mean Sam cannot play centre, or that he was given a good shot at the position and failed.

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Krueger has never tried Sam at centre that I'm aware of. Housley tried him with two replacement level players, it didn't work, he never tried it again.

Both coaches preferred him at wing given the players they had. I also think Sam prefers wing. He is a good winger and we don't have many. I think he should stay on the wing.

None of these things mean Sam cannot play centre, or that he was given a good shot at the position and failed.

With respect to the highlighted area we are in accord. 

The more salient point isn't whether he can play center or not. It's what position is he best at. The coaches believe that it is at the wing position. The player in question also seems to agree to that slotting. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

35 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Krueger has never tried Sam at centre that I'm aware of. Housley tried him with two replacement level players, it didn't work, he never tried it again.

Both coaches preferred him at wing given the players they had. I also think Sam prefers wing. He is a good winger and we don't have many. I think he should stay on the wing.

None of these things mean Sam cannot play centre, or that he was given a good shot at the position and failed.

Why do people keep saying this.  We have two excellent scoring LW in VO and Skinner.  A elite RW in Reinhart and a RW who has been in the top 30 in primary assists the last two years in Kahun.  That's the 4 top 6 wingers we need.  We also have Mojo who is a perfectly capable 3rd line LW and KO who is a overpaid but very effective 4 RW.  All we are missing is a 3 RW and a 4 LW.  That isn't a roster devoid of good wingers.  Lazar and Asplund are perfectly capable of being effective in the 4 LW slot if Girgensons walks.  Where we come up short is top 6/9 wing prospects and organizational depth at RW in the pros.  Thompson is arguably our best under 23 winger and he is an unknown do to his injury.  Like Reinhart the organization could easily move Mitts to wing to help add depth there.

What will be interesting to watch is the development of Weissbach (lw), Routsalainen (c/Lw), Pekar (lw), Huglen (rw), Davidsson (c/lw) , Piro (lw) and even Murray (lw) to see if any of them can emerge and add depth over the next few years.  of this group Weissbach, Routsalainen and Pekar are probably the most likely NHLers.

[Weave]

3 hours ago, 7+6=13 said:

We just don't have enough good offensive players.  Why we blame the only good ones we have is beyond me. 

Who is blaming Sam for anything?  Haven't seen one blame Sam post in here.

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, Zamboni said:

Posters have their minds already made up about Sam. This is an exercise in futility. 

What the posters think is immaterial. What counts is what the HC thinks. He is slotted where the coaches for two different staffs put him. That speaks for itself on this issue. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Why do people keep saying this.  We have two excellent scoring LW in VO and Skinner.  A elite RW in Reinhart and a RW who has been in the top 30 in primary assists the last two years in Kahun.  That's the 4 top 6 wingers we need.  We also have Mojo who is a perfectly capable 3rd line LW and KO who is a overpaid but very effective 4 RW.  All we are missing is a 3 RW and a 4 LW.  That isn't a roster devoid of good wingers.  Lazar and Asplund are perfectly capable of being effective in the 4 LW slot if Girgensons walks.  Where we come up short is top 6/9 wing prospects and organizational depth at RW in the pros.  Thompson is arguably our best under 23 winger and he is an unknown do to his injury.  Like Reinhart the organization could easily move Mitts to wing to help add depth there.

What will be interesting to watch is the development of Weissbach (lw), Routsalainen (c/Lw), Pekar (lw), Huglen (rw), Davidsson (c/lw) , Piro (lw) and even Murray (lw) to see if any of them can emerge and add depth over the next few years.  of this group Weissbach, Routsalainen and Pekar are probably the most likely NHLers.

There's no rw depth. None. 

[dudacek]

This year, based strictly on production compared to other NHL forwards:

Sam was a legitimate 1st liner, but not an elite one

Victor was a good 2nd liner

Kahun was a bad 2nd/good 3rd

Skinner was an average 3rd

Okposo an elite 4th

Johansson was also a bad 2nd/good 3rd but right now he remains a centre.

Of our UFAs, Simmonds was an average 3rd, Vesey and Girgensons elite 4ths, 

Maybe they are already our roster, but based on this year we needed more good wingers.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

This year, based strictly on production compared to other NHL forwards:

Sam was a legitimate 1st liner, but not an elite one

Victor was a good 2nd liner

Kahun was a bad 2nd/good 3rd

Skinner was an average 3rd

Okposo an elite 4th

Johansson was also a bad 2nd/good 3rd but right now he remains a centre.

Of our UFAs, Simmonds was an average 3rd, Vesey and Girgensons elite 4ths, 

Maybe they are already our roster, but based on this year we needed more good wingers.

I take issue with some of these.  From my point of view:

Simmonds is not even an average 3rd line player anymore.  I think he is shot.  Especially based of his production.  On pace for just 19 ES points per 82 games, and decreasing for the fourth consecutive season.

Olofsson was on pace for something like 38 ES points over a full season, while playing beside Eichel.  That’s not great.  I honestly think he is a 3rd line quality player at ES.  Great on the PP though, of course, and he could get even better at ES.

Kahun was actually a more productive ES player than Olofsson.  He was on pace for 42 ES points per 82 games, while not consistently playing with guys the quality of Eichel/Reinhart.  I’m actually kind of bullish on the possibility that Kahun can be a legit top-6 winger.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

This year, based strictly on production compared to other NHL forwards:

Sam was a legitimate 1st liner, but not an elite one

Victor was a good 2nd liner

Kahun was a bad 2nd/good 3rd

Skinner was an average 3rd

Okposo an elite 4th

Johansson was also a bad 2nd/good 3rd but right now he remains a centre.

Of our UFAs, Simmonds was an average 3rd, Vesey and Girgensons elite 4ths, 

Maybe they are already our roster, but based on this year we needed more good wingers.

I take issue with these as well.  Skinner, was an elite LW when playing with Jack and regressed when playing without a center for most of last season.  It's very unfair to Skinner to focus only on last year when he has been a proven top 6 LW for his career.

As to Kahun, I agree with @Curt below that his ES production over the last 2 season puts him squarely as a top 6 RW.  Would it be awesome if we went out and got a 2nd top flight RW to "demote" Kahun to the 3RW? Certainly, but I don't think that is in the cards.

46 minutes ago, Curt said:

I take issue with some of these.  From my point of view:

Simmonds is not even an average 3rd line player anymore.  I think he is shot.  Especially based of his production.  On pace for just 19 ES points per 82 games, and decreasing for the fourth consecutive season.

Olofsson was on pace for something like 38 ES points over a full season, while playing beside Eichel.  That’s not great.  I honestly think he is a 3rd line quality player at ES.  Great on the PP though, of course, and he could get even better at ES.

Kahun was actually a more productive ES player than Olofsson.  He was on pace for 42 ES points per 82 games, while not consistently playing with guys the quality of Eichel/Reinhart.  I’m actually kind of bullish on the possibility that Kahun can be a legit top-6 winger.

Me too and I actually think @dudacek is as well, despite his statement seemingly to the contrary.   Your point about VO is exactly why he shouldn't have been playing with Eichel.  I have some serious concerns about RK's ability to coach and generate offense.  Leaving VO with Eichel until late in the year.  Never trying Reinhart on the 2nd line to try to get Skinner going and then only moving Skinner back to Jack's line when it was to late has me questioning his judgement.  

Edited July 8, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Why do people keep saying this.  We have two excellent scoring LW in VO and Skinner.  A elite RW in Reinhart and a RW who has been in the top 30 in primary assists the last two years in Kahun.  That's the 4 top 6 wingers we need.  We also have Mojo who is a perfectly capable 3rd line LW and KO who is a overpaid but very effective 4 RW.  All we are missing is a 3 RW and a 4 LW.  That isn't a roster devoid of good wingers.  Lazar and Asplund are perfectly capable of being effective in the 4 LW slot if Girgensons walks.  Where we come up short is top 6/9 wing prospects and organizational depth at RW in the pros.  Thompson is arguably our best under 23 winger and he is an unknown do to his injury.  Like Reinhart the organization could easily move Mitts to wing to help add depth there.

What will be interesting to watch is the development of Weissbach (lw), Routsalainen (c/Lw), Pekar (lw), Huglen (rw), Davidsson (c/lw) , Piro (lw) and even Murray (lw) to see if any of them can emerge and add depth over the next few years.  of this group Weissbach, Routsalainen and Pekar are probably the most likely NHLers.

While we are at it, then, why do people keep saying this? VO, excellent, and LW don't belong in the same sentence at this time. We are talking even strength lines here, and he was not very good at even strength, never mind excellent. Note - I am not ripping Olofsson, I like him and think he'll develop further, but he's not an excellent scoring winger at this time, he has not proven that. 

Is Reinhart an elite RW? Where is he in a league's RW ranking? I'm liking these guys you are listing but you still seem to overrate them. 

Agree more less with the rest though you list too many prospects that aren't going to sniff the NHL. 

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

What the posters think is immaterial. What counts is what the HC thinks. He is slotted where the coaches for two different staffs put him. That speaks for itself on this issue. 

lol ok you heard it mods delete the thread!

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

There's no rw depth. None. 

There is also no Centre depth, none. And shallow on LHD.

Honestly, Botterill acquired left shot wingers and over-stuffed the right side of the D, that's his idea of roster construction, weirdly unbalanced. Thankfully, some of those left shots can play on the right wing. C still remains the area of biggest need, if Sam could magically be transformed into a viable C right now, that would be the move. 

I agree with those that say he COULD have been C and probably COULD be now but at this point RW is what is best for him and the team. 

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

This year, based strictly on production compared to other NHL forwards:

Sam was a legitimate 1st liner, but not an elite one

Victor was a good 2nd liner

Kahun was a bad 2nd/good 3rd

Skinner was an average 3rd

Okposo an elite 4th

Johansson was also a bad 2nd/good 3rd but right now he remains a centre.

Of our UFAs, Simmonds was an average 3rd, Vesey and Girgensons elite 4ths, 

Maybe they are already our roster, but based on this year we needed more good wingers.

Capable 2nd liner would be where I'd say situate his even strength play last season. He was 50th in even-strength scoring for players listed as LWs on NHL.com. So, roughly, in the lower half of league 2nd line wings, and most of those guys didn't play with Jack Eichel and Reinhart level players in first line duty. 

Without being much defensively yet, I'd put him as a GOOD 3rd line winger and capable of 2nd line duty. I mean, you could argue he's capable of first line duty with a player as good as Jack, I suppose, and I think he'll be that soon, but too often last year I felt he was holding them back a bit at evens. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

I just want to make clear that my post was not an opinion of those players, it is where they actually rankEd among NHL forwards in offensive production this year.

88 forwards had 45 points or more this year, making 44 points the transition between 1st and and 2nd liner.

185 had 30 points or more making it the cut-off between 2nd and 3rd

279 forwards hit 19 points, marking the dividing line between 3rd and 4th line status

@GASabresIUFAN @Curt @Thorny

[Thorner]

16 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I just want to make clear that my post was not an opinion of those players, it is where they actually rankEd among NHL forwards in offensive production this year.

88 forwards had 45 points or more this year, making 44 points the transition between 1st and and 2nd liner.

185 had 30 points or more making it the cut-off between 2nd and 3rd

279 forwards hit 19 points, marking the dividing line between 3rd and 4th line status

@GASabresIUFAN @Curt @Thorny

Well I mean sure, it depends on the numbers one uses, though. I broke it down specifically to LW ES scoring but there are several ways to do it.