New CBA Ratified by NHLPA and BOG.

[Ducky]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Are you using Ehlers as a comparable? From that perspective, I agree. A little over 6 would seem fair. 

But I’d argue the Jets got a strong value contract with that deal and I don’t see that happening with the Sabres in this case. 

Ehlers (I'm not as high on him as some but he is a good 2nd line winger) is on a sweet deal but the Sabres have to be careful with their contracts.

KO and Skinner are eating up a fair chunk of a cap that will be reportedly stagnant for the next two years. They can't be making long term deals for big cash right now. I would give him 6m x 5 years. 

Larkin makes 6.1 on a sweet deal. Horvat is 5.5m. Oshie makes 5.75.....I'd pay him no more than 6m.

[dudacek]

18 minutes ago, Ducky said:

Ehlers (I'm not as high on him as some but he is a good 2nd line winger) is on a sweet deal but the Sabres have to be careful with their contracts.

KO and Skinner are eating up a fair chunk of a cap that will be reportedly stagnant for the next two years. They can't be making long term deals for big cash right now. I would give him 6m x 5 years. 

Larkin makes 6.1 on a sweet deal. Horvat is 5.5m. Oshie makes 5.75.....I'd pay him no more than 6m.

You can’t just look at the AAV numbers.

Dylan Larkin got 6.1 in each of his 4 RFA years despite only giving the Wings one UFA year. He will be a UFA at 27 and in a position to sign an enormous deal.

Sam would need to sign a three-year deal at $7.7 million this summer to make as much as Larkin did over the same five-year period. In reality, for Sam to sign anywhere near $7 million, he will have to sign at least a six year deal, which will again likely put him way behind Larkin in the back three years of that deal, the same way he’s made 2.5 million less than Larkin in each of the past two years.

Edited July 9, 2020 by dudacek

[Ducky]

7m is overpay for him iin  my opinion...we disagree. You have seen him play more than I have. I meean Kyle Connor is making 7.15m and he had  73 points and  38 goalls. No way Reinhart is inn the 7m category even if he signs an eight year deal. He's a rreally important part of the team but I wouldn't overpay him a dime. H's an RFA, who has the leverage?

[Thorner]

23 minutes ago, Ducky said:

7m is overpay for him iin  my opinion...we disagree. You have seen him play more than I have. I meean Kyle Connor is making 7.15m and he had  73 points and  38 goalls. No way Reinhart is inn the 7m category even if he signs an eight year deal. He's a rreally important part of the team but I wouldn't overpay him a dime. H's an RFA, who has the leverage?

Like @dudacek said, you can't just look at the AAV and compare talent. 

When the deal gets signed matters. Cheveldayoff did the smart thing and locked Kyle Connor up to a LT deal straight out of his ELC. The Sabres bridged Reinhart - what do you think Connor would sign for if he signed his deal after next season? Sam is two arbitration awards from UFA - the Sabres will have to pay to play, I've been preaching this for a while. Even with the stagnant cap. Our best hope is that Sam WANTS to be here, we do need him. The best season Connor had to his name when he signed his deal was 66 points. Sam's best? 65. 

You can't just find a good contract somewhere in the league and say, damn, that guy is better than my guy, no way I'm paying him the same amount. Couturier would have single-handedly ruined contracts by this point. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Thorny

[Stoner]

I can't resist anymore.

I prefer the old CBA Tidbits with all the preservatives and artificial colors.

[dudacek]

9 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I can't resist anymore.

I prefer the old CBA Tidbits with all the preservatives and artificial colors.

Royal or navy?

[Taro T]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

Royal or navy?

Has to be that weird toxic gold color of the slugs.  That thing will still be that bright 2,000 years from now.  It's easier to dispose of PCBs from old power transformers than THAT.

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Has to be that weird toxic gold color of the slugs.  That thing will still be that bright 2,000 years from now.  It's easier to dispose of PCBs from old power transformers than THAT.

I loved those unis for exactly one season. 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I loved those unis for exactly one season. 

The sweaters were sharp. Non traditional, but that was ok.

Throwing a logo that made the Gorton's Fisherman on a clown sweater look downright well thought out onto it ruined it.  Could never get past that horrible logo.

[Ducky]

On 7/8/2020 at 10:34 PM, Thorny said:

Like @dudacek said, you can't just look at the AAV and compare talent. 

When the deal gets signed matters. Cheveldayoff did the smart thing and locked Kyle Connor up to a LT deal straight out of his ELC. The Sabres bridged Reinhart - what do you think Connor would sign for if he signed his deal after next season? Sam is two arbitration awards from UFA - the Sabres will have to pay to play, I've been preaching this for a while. Even with the stagnant cap. Our best hope is that Sam WANTS to be here, we do need him. The best season Connor had to his name when he signed his deal was 66 points. Sam's best? 65. 

You can't just find a good contract somewhere in the league and say, damn, that guy is better than my guy, no way I'm paying him the same amount. Couturier would have single-handedly ruined contracts by this point. 

Say what you want, he isn't worth 7m a year.

[Brawndo]

78.4% voted in Favor 

 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

23 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

78.4% voted in Favor 

 

4 year extension? 

[Andrew Amerk]

8 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

4 year extension? 

I think the commercial said if it’s longer than 4 hours to contact your doctor. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Andrew Amerk

[Brawndo]

17 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

4 year extension? 

Plus the two remaining years. Six years of Labour (??) Peace and NHL Participation in the 2022 and 2026 Olympics 

[WildCard]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

Plus the two remaining years. Six years of Labour (??) Peace and NHL Participation in the 2022 and 2026 Olympics 

Best news that's come out hockey related in a long time

[Tondas]

I'm glad there are no amnesty buyouts.  Contracts are agreed to by both sides.  GM's need to manage their business and be held accountable.

[nfreeman]

I’m looking forward to the deets on this.  

[Sabres Fan in NS]

14 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Plus the two remaining years. Six years of Labour (??) Peace and NHL Participation in the 2022 and 2026 Olympics 

Thanks.  And what a great and proper use of the English Language as designed by the English themselves.

[Ducky]

On 7/8/2020 at 9:34 PM, Thorny said:

Like @dudacek said, you can't just look at the AAV and compare talent. 

When the deal gets signed matters. Cheveldayoff did the smart thing and locked Kyle Connor up to a LT deal straight out of his ELC. The Sabres bridged Reinhart - what do you think Connor would sign for if he signed his deal after next season? Sam is two arbitration awards from UFA - the Sabres will have to pay to play, I've been preaching this for a while. Even with the stagnant cap. Our best hope is that Sam WANTS to be here, we do need him. The best season Connor had to his name when he signed his deal was 66 points. Sam's best? 65. 

You can't just find a good contract somewhere in the league and say, damn, that guy is better than my guy, no way I'm paying him the same amount. Couturier would have single-handedly ruined contracts by this point. 

Do you consider KC comparable to Reinhart? KC had that in his 2nd year in the league...Reinhart his 4th. I don't disagree with the Sabres needing him, I disagree with 7m per year.

5 names capfriendly compares KC's contract with are ... 

Keller, Pastrnak, Nylaner, Gaudreau and Forsberg.

Do you consider Reinhart comparable to these players?

[dudacek]

18 minutes ago, Ducky said:

Do you consider KC comparable to Reinhart? KC had that in his 2nd year in the league...Reinhart his 4th. I don't disagree with the Sabres needing him, I disagree with 7m per year.

5 names capfriendly compares KC's contract with are ... 

Keller, Pastrnak, Nylaner, Gaudreau and Forsberg.

Do you consider Reinhart comparable to these players?

Again, the NHL doesn’t work that way. You are ignoring when the contracts were signed, when they expire and the difference in value between UFA and RFA years.

All of those guys are on their second contracts where they elected term. Sam is on his third after taking a cheap bridge on his second deal. Most of those guys signed after one good year, Sam is signing off a more proven sample size. Those guys signed their deals 2-4 years ago. Sam is signing in 2020. Those guys are likely to get significant raises in a few years when they hit UFA in their prime.

Pastrnak and Gaudreau would be in line for 10 million if they were signing this summer. Forsberg would probably get 8. Nylander and Keller already get 7ish and are statistically comparable to Sam.

Nobody knows what the flat cap will do, but Nylander got 4 RFA years and two UFA years at nearly $7 after back-to-back 61-point seasons. If COVID didn’t happen, Sam could certainly make a case for $7 if it was for 2 RFA and 5 UFA years after seasons of 65 and a pro-rated 60. $6 would be a bargain for the Sabres.

[dudacek]

Here's a couple good primers on how the new CBA works:

https://theathletic.com/1921783/2020/07/11/a-dystopian-cba-how-the-nhls-new-agreement-is-designed-for-economic-armageddon/

https://theathletic.com/1922516/2020/07/10/burnside-nhl-bucks-its-own-history-with-a-new-cba-and-a-bold-plan-to-return/

Some big takeaways:

• because of pandemic, the players have received 65 per cent of league revenue this years and owe the owners a whack of cash.
• because of escrow and salary deferral, owners will only be forking out about $57 million in real dollars next year on an 81.5 million cap.
• even if revenues return quickly and fully, it could take seven years for the players to fully repay what is owed and the cap to start truly growing again
• its possible that real revenues will be low enough that teams will be forced to operate closer to the floor

A money quote:

"With a flat cap for the foreseeable future, players’ earning potential is going to be blunted. It means that teams that have been spending to the cap and have locked up assets long term are going to face difficult decisions on key players. As one salary cap expert noted, “Whoever has salary cap space is going to rule the realm.”

It means UFAs like Pieterangelo and Hall aren't likely to break the bank this fall and RFAs like Reinhart and Montour aren't going to get big ticket deals now, or in a couple years by waiting. It also means that if we play it right we could be in a position like we were coming out of the 2005 lockout: well-positioned to succeed in the new NHL.

The key words of course are "play it right."

Edited July 12, 2020 by dudacek

[Thorner]

On 7/11/2020 at 10:36 AM, Ducky said:

Do you consider KC comparable to Reinhart? KC had that in his 2nd year in the league...Reinhart his 4th. I don't disagree with the Sabres needing him, I disagree with 7m per year.

5 names capfriendly compares KC's contract with are ... 

Keller, Pastrnak, Nylaner, Gaudreau and Forsberg.

Do you consider Reinhart comparable to these players?

You bypassed my argument but @dudacek covered it.

[Ducky]

5 hours ago, Thorny said:

You bypassed my argument but @dudacek covered it.

How much do you think Reinhart should get?

[Thorner]

28 minutes ago, Ducky said:

How much do you think Reinhart should get?

I think fair value, within the context of the circumstances we've laid out, is ~7 million. 

Yes Connor "deserves" more than Reinhart, in a vacuum, but the context is impossible to ignore when the league operates within the parameters of that context. 

Just because the Sabres missed out on a value deal like Connor's, doesn't mean he shouldn't be paid, now, what the market dictates. Sam would be fair value, Connor, good value. 

I mean you said what Ducky like 6 mil? It's quite easy for the context we've mentioned to bridge that gap, we're not really that far off here. 

[Thorner]

Sometimes the better player makes less. Scheifele makes less than Connor and Laine. It just happens, it's unavoidable. Get as many value contracts as you can, but don't expect talent, strictly, to dictate cash.

Yes, Mark is undoubtedly on a great contract, but I'd say Connor is on a pretty good one, too. Didn't stop Wheeler from cashing in for a HEAVILY player-friendly deal.

Personally, I know I’d rather pay a 24 year old Sam Reinhart 7x7, than a 34 year old Blake Wheeler 8.25 for the next 4 years. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Thorny