Rick Dudley Unlikely to Join Sabres

[LabattBlue]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Who’s the 4th, Jack? 

I thought it was Terry, Kym and the two daughters. ?

[Andrew Amerk]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

That might be five, but seriously, Kim Terry Kevyn Ralph, no?

You spelled Kym wrong 

[Billznut]

7 hours ago, Gatorman0519 said:

Never expected them to bring him in.  No chance.  TP has doubled down and only has certain trusted people inside.  Adams and Kruger will be running the show for many years.  

I’d bet more on it being 2-3 years tops before they are thrown on the trash heap after the Sabres remain near the bottom five of the NHL standings. 

[Billznut]

5 hours ago, Curt said:

You try to hire the person who you think is a good fit.  You pass on anyone who you don’t think is a good fit.  It’s not that complicated.

The Pegulas should do the exact opposite of what they think is the “right” thing. Their odds of success can’t go anywhere but up. 

[Pimlach]

15 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

If Dudley isn't a " good fit" then there's still problems with organization. A guy like Dudley doesn't come along very often, you make him fit when you are in dire need of his assets.

I mentioned how he might not fit in this goofy organization several times.  
 

He is a Senior Executive, a President or VP.  You can’t just squeeze him under a Rookie GM.  He is not going to come here just because he is old, needs a job, loves Buffalo or played for the team.  Dudley is not like that.  Never has been.  

Edited July 9, 2020 by Pimlach

[PerreaultForever]

Sigh. Simply one more reason not to give a crap next season. 

[Tondas]

11 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Sigh. Simply one more reason not to give a crap next season. 

I agree Perreault.  This is a no-brainer.  They are clueless.  Apparently Kim and Adams, with their combined 9 years of front office experience know more than Dudley with 40 frickin' years.  Kim was 11 and Adams was 5 when Dudley was working in an NHL front office.  WTF?

Edited July 9, 2020 by Tondas

[Drag0nDan]

8 hours ago, Tondas said:

I agree Perreault.  This is a no-brainer.  They are clueless.  Apparently Kim and Adams, with their combined 9 years of front office experience know more than Dudley with 40 frickin' years.  Kim was 11 and Adams was 5 when Dudley was working in an NHL front office.  WTF?

Why is this guy getting canned every couple of years though?  Is he that hard to work with?

Has he won any cups?  I know TB and Chicago he had acquisitions that helped them win cups, before he was fired.  

[Drag0nDan]

9 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I mentioned how he might not fit in this goofy organization several times.  
 

He is a Senior Executive, a President or VP.  You can’t just squeeze him under a Rookie GM.  He is not going to come here just because he is old, needs a job, loves Buffalo or played for the team.  Dudley is not like that.  Never has been.  

Yeah - i feel like he would want a level of control that he can't get here.  Reporting to adams/krueger probably isn't in the cards.

[tom webster]

It should be noted that Dudley has had several opportunities to come here and hasn’t.  I said right at the beginning that he would be a good hire but his reputation has always been he doesn’t play well with others.

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

Yeah - i feel like he would want a level of control that he can't get here.  Reporting to adams/krueger probably isn't in the cards.

The guy reported to Marc Bergevin and Don Waddell.

I was hoping for Dudley too, but the guy was GM of three teams 20 years ago and was gone after two years each time.

People are acting like Yzerman approached the Pegulas about coming here and they hung up the phone.

Edited July 9, 2020 by dudacek

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The guy reported to Marc Bergevin and Don Waddell.

I was hoping for Dudley too, but the guy was GM of three teams 20 years ago and was gone after two years each time.

People are acting like Yzerman approached the Pegulas about coming here and they hung up the phone.

To a degree, but the Sabres hired the Yzerman that didn't spend years looking over Holland's shoulder figuring out how it gets done.  They hired the 1 essentially 1 year removed from retiring.  Would Stevie Y have been the FO guy he became without that tutelage?

We're about to find out.  But we shouldn't have to.

[JohnC]

5 minutes ago, Taro T said:

To a degree, but the Sabres hired the Yzerman that didn't spend years looking over Holland's shoulder figuring out how it gets done.  They hired the 1 essentially 1 year removed from retiring.  Would Stevie Y have been the FO guy he became without that tutelage?

We're about to find out.  But we shouldn't have to.

Why do you believe that Dudley would be a good tutor? If you want to argue that he would be a good GM or assistant GM then that is a separate issue than he being a good subordinate or mentor. Dudley is known to be strong-will. Those traits are contrary to the direction this organization wants to go to. So why would you hire someone to a high level position whose management/personal style is incompatible to what you want to establish with the recent changes in management? 

I would love to have Dudley be involved in the scouting department. It doesn't seem that the organization was interested in bringing him on. I'm not diminishing Dudley's knowledge as a hockey executive. But if an organization is attempting to remake itself and it doesn't believe that a candidate for employment doesn't fit its culture then it is understandable why he wasn't hired. 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by JohnC

[dudacek]

17 minutes ago, Taro T said:

To a degree, but the Sabres hired the Yzerman that didn't spend years looking over Holland's shoulder figuring out how it gets done.  They hired the 1 essentially 1 year removed from retiring.  Would Stevie Y have been the FO guy he became without that tutelage?

We're about to find out.  But we shouldn't have to.

Do we know Dudley is a good mentor? Has it been determined we aren’t bringing another hockey guy in?

[Taro T]

22 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Why do you believe that Dudley would be a good tutor

1st off, he's stubborn & driven; pretty sure Adam's that way too, so they'd definitely clash some, but overall would expect those disagreements to turn productive.

2nd, he has that innate ability to judge talent; not sure how much of that would rub off, but based on the Buffalo junior/youth Sabres program results since Adams' been there, he might just have some of that himself & talking regularly with Dudley wouldn't hurt it any.

3rd, he's coming from an organization that does scouting & analytics right and is presumably the model the Sabres are hoping to follow & improve upon.  And the GM of that organization is a moron.  But since he's had Duds & the analytics guy with him he's been far more of a savant than the idiot he is.

4th, he's been a part of low budget organizations that have been successful beyond what their budget should allow pretty much his entire time working in FO's around the league.  This is a good thing & he knows a bit about how to be successful in a constrained environment.

5th, he's been in the league since the 70's & has held a wide variety of different jobs, so he understands how all the parts fit together.  Adams has a similar array of backgrounds, but has never been an NHL HC & afaik has never done player evaluation above a junior level.  Duds background can help bridge gaps there.

5B, because he's been in the league so long, he knows EVERYONE.  He knows which guys you have to work the soft sell and which ones you can pretend you're George Armstrong negotiating with Jason Botterill.  Simply bringing in that knowledge has a great value.  Adams knows many in the business.  Duds knows everybody in the business.

6th, Duds still bleeds Sabres blue (royal or navy, don't matter).  Having that kind of a background & wanting the Sabres to succeed is also invaluable coming from someone with his background.

There's probably a couple of other reasons, like this likely being his last hurrah before heading into the sunset, but that should suffice.

EDIT: And not necessarily saying he'd be a "tutor," but as an "advisor," heck yeah, sign him up.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Taro T

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Do we know Dudley is a good mentor? Has it been determined we aren’t bringing another hockey guy in?

No.  Do we know he isn't?

No.  But based on everything we've heard about how the Pegulas feel "burned" by advice from league insiders is there any other experienced "hockey guy" that would have more reason for them to trust he wants the Sabres to be successful?  Outside of possibly Gerry Meehan, can't think of any ottomh.  Do we have any reason to believe there is anyone else out there on the radar screen who they'd consider bringing in at a VP or advisory level?

[dudacek]

It would be interesting to hear directly what John Warwrow’s cryptic “information” was.

”Dudley’s a profane old boy who reeks of Tim Murray. Kim has no interest.”

“The Sabres Won’t be adding anyone any time soon. There’s a total hiring freeze until Labour Day.”

”Adams is already negotiating with his new right hand, and it ain’t Rick.”

Too little information right now to get too wired about this.

Edited July 9, 2020 by dudacek

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

1st off, he's stubborn & driven; pretty sure Adam's that way too, so they'd definitely clash some, but overall would expect those disagreements to turn productive.

2nd, he has that innate ability to judge talent; not sure how much of that would rub off, but based on the Buffalo junior/youth Sabres program results since Adams' been there, he might just have some of that himself & talking regularly with Dudley wouldn't hurt it any.

3rd, he's coming from an organization that does scouting & analytics right and is presumably the model the Sabres are hoping to follow & improve upon.  And the GM of that organization is a moron.  But since he's had Duds & the analytics guy with him he's been far more of a savant than the idiot he is.

4th, he's been a part of low budget organizations that have been successful beyond what their budget should allow pretty much his entire time working in FO's around the league.  This is a good thing & he knows a bit about how to be successful in a constrained environment.

5th, he's been in the league since the 70's & has held a wide variety of different jobs, so he understands how all the parts fit together.  Adams has a similar array of backgrounds, but has never been an NHL HC & afaik has never done player evaluation above a junior level.  Duds background can help bridge gaps there.

5B, because he's been in the league so long, he knows EVERYONE.  He knows which guys you have to work the soft sell and which ones you can pretend you're George Armstrong negotiating with Jason Botterill.  Simply bringing in that knowledge has a great value.  Adams knows many in the business.  Duds knows everybody in the business.

6th, Duds still bleeds Sabres blue (royal or navy, don't matter).  Having that kind of a background & wanting the Sabres to succeed is also invaluable coming from someone with his background.

There's probably a couple of other reasons, like this likely being his last hurrah before heading into the sunset, but that should suffice.

Due to the corona situation this is going to be an extended offseason that will allow the organization a lot of time to scan the market for new staff. Why would it be wise to quickly hire someone for an important position when there are other candidates that this organization might have an interest in. Dudley is an experienced hockey staffer who has a variety of experiences in the business. That doesn't mean that there aren't other high qualified candidates for whatever positions the organization wants to fill.  

It was reported that Dudley had an interest in working for the Sabres. Assuming that is true what we don't know is what roles would he be willing to accept if offered a position. I'm not diminishing Dudley's hockey knowledge but that doesn't mean that he would be a good fit under this new organizational structure. And if he is so indispensable why is he not being retained by the Canes? 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

One of the reasons I think he would fit is BECAUSE he doesn't stay anywhere too long. A 1-2yr stint would help Adams turn this around. Plus the fact that the Pegs don't seem to keep anyone very long ( but pay longer than they keep them).

He passes his knowledge on to Kevyn and scouting staff over a short time and retires. 

[kas23]

22 hours ago, Doohickie said:

What if Dudley was never considered and never considered the Sabres?  I mean, it is plausible you know.

It’s possible Duds considered them and even wanted to be hire by the organization, but after listening to what his role would be and how much power he would have, he said thanks but no thanks. This would be a reasonable scenario. But, this is the Sabres, where GM interviews don’t even occur. So, it’s entirely possible they never even picked up the phone.

[Thorner]

9 hours ago, Taro T said:

To a degree, but the Sabres hired the Yzerman that didn't spend years looking over Holland's shoulder figuring out how it gets done.  They hired the 1 essentially 1 year removed from retiring.  Would Stevie Y have been the FO guy he became without that tutelage?

We're about to find out.  But we shouldn't have to.

Clarification?

[Thorner]

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

Do we know Dudley is a good mentor? Has it been determined we aren’t bringing another hockey guy in?

This is probably the key point. I agree with @Taro T that Dudley, specifically, was quite intriguing, but most importantly for me I'd like to see them as least bring in a capable outside voice or two to aid in the decision making process. 

Time is not of the essence in this regard, however. 

[Thorner]

8 hours ago, JohnC said:

Due to the corona situation this is going to be an extended offseason that will allow the organization a lot of time to scan the market for new staff. Why would it be wise to quickly hire someone for an important position when there are other candidates that this organization might have an interest in. Dudley is an experienced hockey staffer who has a variety of experiences in the business. That doesn't mean that there aren't other high qualified candidates for whatever positions the organization wants to fill.  

It was reported that Dudley had an interest in working for the Sabres. Assuming that is true what we don't know is what roles would he be willing to accept if offered a position. I'm not diminishing Dudley's hockey knowledge but that doesn't mean that he would be a good fit under this new organizational structure. And if he is so indispensable why is he not being retained by the Canes? 

This is all valid and reasonable, but also clearly, firmly on the "giving Terry and Kim the benefit of the doubt" side. Which is fine - but I'm not surprised to see so many wary of their hiring prowess. 

Are you surprised by that?

1 hour ago, kas23 said:

It’s possible Duds considered them and even wanted to be hire by the organization, but after listening to what his role would be and how much power he would have, he said thanks but no thanks. This would be a reasonable scenario. But, this is the Sabres, where GM interviews don’t even occur. So, it’s entirely possible they never even picked up the phone.

Right. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Thorny

[Taro T]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Clarification?

Saying that the Sabres picked a guy with very little FO experience, similar to what TB would've gotten back about 1 year after Yzerman hung up his skates.  Would that younger Yzerman have had the same results that the 1 who learned from 1 of the absolute best had?  Perhaps.  But that's highly debatable & TB was smart enough to not try to find out.  They waited until he was ready.

Is Adams ready?  We have to hope so.  Dudley being around would've improved the likelihood he is.

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Saying that the Sabres picked a guy with very little FO experience, similar to what TB would've gotten back about 1 year after Yzerman hung up his skates.  Would that younger Yzerman have had the same results that the 1 who learned from 1 of the absolute best had?  Perhaps.  But that's highly debatable & TB was smart enough to not try to find out.  They waited until he was ready.

Is Adams ready?  We have to hope so.  Dudley being around would've improved the likelihood he is.

Thanks and makes sense, just didn't understand the one year after retiring thing, as Adams retired so long ago, but you are referring to lack of experience in a FO role.