The new Core

[sabremike]

3 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Except the post you quoted didn't say anything like this.

As for the 2nd bolded -- do better or keep quiet.

Whatever...

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Perreault forever used to diss Reinhart as a 3rd liner. I remember long exchanges with him on the subject.

He can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think he now acknowledges him as a top-six forward, just not one that we should pay at that level because he’s not the type of player a team can win with.

45 minutes ago, Weave said:

I think you are misreading those folks.  I think Dudacek’s read is more accurate.  A few folks think he’s not the type of player that they think will help the team win, but acknowledge that he is a top 6 talent.  If anything, I think the argument has been that he shouldn’t get 1st line money.

Im trying to find a comparable for these people.  Maybe not Satan.  Roy?  Is that the comparison?  Talented.  Not someone you spend core money on.  I don’t know.  I don’t hold that view.  I want to see a playoff push before I pull that trigger. 

Seems like a distinction without a difference. If Sam is a top 6 player, but only for a bad team, then he's not a top 6 player.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, LTS said:

With all due respect, you respond to many posts with "NFW" such and such happens.  How is that any less obnoxious?

If we are going to ask the poster to do better then I think that applies to many of us on this forum, including me.  

Serious question:  do you think saying "there is NFW that XYZ happens" is the same as calling someone a fool or saying that something he/she said is stupid?

[DarthEbriate]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Okay, now fit Dahlin and Jokiharju in for 2021. You are creating a broken roster if you do this without sending out Reinhart or Skinner to compensate. The Cap is not going up and won't next year either in all likelihood. 

Dahlin could bridge... but do we risk it?

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Skinner is a burden for sure. 

The really ugly thing is that NMC, because otherwise we could give Seattle a couple picks to take his contract (and a potential 30-goal guy). They might not bite, but they might. Or Okposo.

53 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

What assumptions are you all making re: budget in this new era of "Efficient, Economic, Effective"?

If Terry and Kim want Hall --- then they're going to sign off on his cost, just like they did Leino and Ehrhoff and Moulson and Okposo. When they want the shiny thing they shell out for it. Besides, Hodgson will come off the books in a few seasons. ?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

16 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Serious question:  do you think saying "there is NFW that XYZ happens" is the same as calling someone a fool or saying that something he/she said is stupid?

Very different.

Now we have the name calling reaching a new high in low with recent posts.  Check for something incoming.

[MattPie]

22 minutes ago, NAF said:

Chill out retard it's a message board. What is the stupid narrative? Seems to me like the Sabres' ownership group is dumb and as a result our team will have cap issues down the road -- especially if we sign players like Reinhart to deals like $7.5 - $8.0 Million AAV which they will likely under perform.

Successful NHL teams are built through depth across the roster (see: BOS, STL, WSH), not cap heavy first lines. Its the same reason why Edmonton has sucked for the last 5 years despite having McDavid and Draisaitl.

You need to cut out that "retard" stuff. Bad look.

[SDS]

23 minutes ago, NAF said:

Chill out retard it's a message board. What is the stupid narrative? Seems to me like the Sabres' ownership group is dumb and as a result our team will have cap issues down the road -- especially if we sign players like Reinhart to deals like $7.5 - $8.0 Million AAV which they will likely under perform.

Successful NHL teams are built through depth across the roster (see: BOS, STL, WSH), not cap heavy first lines. Its the same reason why Edmonton has sucked for the last 5 years despite having McDavid and Draisaitl.

This isn’t that type of community. We are happy to have you here but we need to keep our level of discourse at a good level. Thanks.

[dudacek]

14 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Seems like a distinction without a difference. If Sam is a top 6 player, but only for a bad team, then he's not a top 6 player.

I’d tend to agree with you on this one.

You can’t argue with Sam’s numbers, which are inarguably first-line, or what first-liners get paid. You can only argue about whether they are artificially inflated by Jack, and rendered moot by his alleged failings, and to what degree.

Sam is the 57th highest-scoring forward in hockey over the length of his current contract. The 57th highest-paid forward made 6.1 million.

[Weave]

36 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Seems like a distinction without a difference. If Sam is a top 6 player, but only for a bad team, then he's not a top 6 player.

We heard the same about Evander Kane, and now we are hearing it about Skinner too.  I can‘t really nail down the distinction because I’m not at all emotionally invested in it. 

33 minutes ago, NAF said:

Chill out retard it's a message board. What is the stupid narrative? Seems to me like the Sabres' ownership group is dumb and as a result our team will have cap issues down the road -- especially if we sign players like Reinhart to deals like $7.5 - $8.0 Million AAV which they will likely under perform.

Successful NHL teams are built through depth across the roster (see: BOS, STL, WSH), not cap heavy first lines. Its the same reason why Edmonton has sucked for the last 5 years despite having McDavid and Draisaitl.

Congratulations on being my first ignore.  That language has no business in adult conversations.

[dudacek]

12 minutes ago, Weave said:

We heard the same about Evander Kane, and now we are hearing it about Skinner too.  I can‘t really nail down the distinction because I’m not at all emotionally invested in it. 

Hockey fans speak in weird shorthand, like when they say top-4 defenceman, most really mean top-2.

1C really means franchise centre: Eichel, Mathews, McDavid, a dozen or so others.

2C means a 1st liner who is  not a franchise player. 

3C means a 30-40 point scorer who is dependable defensively, or a 40-50 point scorer

There are 93 centre positions on NHL 1st, 2nd and 3rd lines, but only about 50 players who are qualified to play them, according to fan shorthand.

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by dudacek

[shrader]

On 6/23/2020 at 10:27 AM, New Scotland (NS) said:

So, I checked your profile, as did many others ... who in the blazes are you?

In the future, check the posting history for the person.  Pretty quickly you should be able to find a post that was quoted.  That will still show the old username.

[JohnC]

On 6/22/2020 at 4:53 PM, dudacek said:

Not that I care a ton, but I wonder if the change in regime may lead to a change of heart on the Pilut front.

I doubt it. From what it was reported due to the tax law in Russia Pilut could be making nearly twice as much in Russia than he would playing in the NHL. And it is more likely that he will be given a lot more playing time in the Russian league than he would as at best a third pairing defenseman with the Sabres. I like Pilut a lot. He is a  good skater and a smart player but he is not better than Joki who has a similar style of game. 

In a backhanded way losing a solid to good player like Pilut and not having it more than marginally affecting the unit is a sign that that unit has accumulated a good group of blueliners. A few years ago this unit was bereft a talent. Now it has a solid to good core. That's progress.  

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by JohnC

[Drag0nDan]

54 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I doubt it. From what it was reported due to the tax law in Russia Pilut could be making nearly twice as much in Russia than he would playing in the NHL. And it is more likely that he will be given a lot more playing time in the Russian league than he would as at best a third pairing defenseman with the Sabres. I like Pilut a lot. He is a  good skater and a smart player but he is not better than Joki who has a similar style of game. 

In a backhanded way losing a solid to good player like Pilut and not having it more than marginal affecting the unit is a sign that that unit has accumulated a good group of blueliners. A few years ago this unit was bereft a talent. Now it has a solid to good core. That's progress.  

 

 

Wouldve been nice to lose him for a pick, or as a throw-in on a trade though... 

[sabresparaavida]

2 hours ago, SwampD said:

Seems like a distinction without a difference. If Sam is a top 6 player, but only for a bad team, then he's not a top 6 player.

I would agree with that statement, but I think Sam is a top 6 player. IMO, he is a first liner on a bad team, and usually a 2nd liner on a good team. For a good team, he should be around the 4th best forward.

[bob_sauve28]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

 

In a backhanded way losing a solid to good player like Pilut and not having it more than marginal affecting the unit is a sign that that unit has accumulated a good group of blueliners. A few years ago this unit was bereft a talent. Now it has a solid to good core. That's progress.  

 

 

Yup! With room to grow, too! 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Drag0nDan said:

Wouldve been nice to lose him for a pick, or as a throw-in on a trade though... 

I don't know how long he intends to play in Russia or how long our rights to would have lasted if exercised. But regardless his value in a trade or part of a trade is not something to be bothered about. I liked him as a player but his value as a trade asset was minimal and his departure as a player had an inconsequential impact on the roster. Player movements are part of the landscape in the NHL and happen to every team. In the end the player did what was right for himself and the organization did what was right for itself. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, sabresparaavida said:

I would agree with that statement, but I think Sam is a top 6 player. IMO, he is a first liner on a bad team, and usually a 2nd liner on a good team. For a good team, he should be around the 4th best forward.

For the Sabres the debate about whether Sam is a first or second line player is misplaced. The value that Sam has is that he meshes well with Jack on the first line and brings to that line the important attribute of playing well around the net. The Sabres are composed of many players who prefer to play around the perimeter and few players who are willing to do the tough job of being a presence around the net where most of the goals are scored. It's indisputable that Jack is the most valuable player on the team. Having a player like Sam who increases Jack's production means that the sidekick player is the type of player you want to be on the Jack line. The issue shouldn't be where does he fit on another team as it should be how does he fit with the team that he is on. 

[Thorner]

On 6/22/2020 at 8:34 PM, Curt said:

I don’t think that he will.  What about $6.5M?

No way the number starts with a 6. 

[Thorner]

On 6/22/2020 at 9:15 PM, Andrew Amerk said:

Idk, I’m no longer convinced. He may be a 1st line player here due to lack of talent, but he may only be a 2nd liner on actual good teams. 

I like him, but I don’t see him as being a solid player if he was ever in the playoffs. 

Picture the Sabres in the playoffs. It’s a game 7, game is tied, 4 minutes left in the game. Puck goes into the corner. Do you trust Samson to go in and win that battle? 

I really like Sam. I wouldn't be being truthful if I said I wasn't a tad disappointed in his year, this past season, I had hoped he was still "on the way up" to his prime. Could still be, but there's also a chance he's leveled out at an ~60 point player (pacing for 59 this year after 65 last). Which is still really good. 

His past year could help a bit in negotiations and I hope they go for a reasonable long term deal this summer. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorner]

On 6/23/2020 at 9:27 AM, New Scotland (NS) said:

So, I checked your profile, as did many others ... who in the blazes are you?

And, the Sabres need a lot.  Cozens I think will be a keeper, probably will become a good NHL winger, possibly first line, second line on a good Sabre team.

Cozens is a prototypical C. 

On 6/23/2020 at 12:07 PM, Curt said:

Yeah, I still think it’s high when compared to other RFA’s coming off of a bridge deal.  It’s been heavily discussed in the Reinhart thread.

Especially considering that the cap will most likely stay flat for 2-3 years, maybe even going down a little, it’s especially doubtful that Reinhart is going to get over 7.  I think that’s about the max he will cost on a long term deal.

There's no way Reinhart takes 6 something on a team where Skinner makes 9. He will simply arbitration his way to UFA. By then, the cap will probably be going up again, too.

He's not going to be afraid to bet on himself. He already did it, and he's hella-durable. Reinhart at 6.5 or so would be an absolute steal and I can't remember the last time the Sabres had an absolute steal of a deal. Nylander got 7, Reinhart gets that + inflation + bargaining power. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorner]

On 6/23/2020 at 12:21 PM, spndnchz said:

You're fine.

This is a good point.

That the cap is going to be flat for a couple years is exactly why Reinhart may opt to push off his LT deal. 

On 6/22/2020 at 9:15 PM, Andrew Amerk said:

Idk, I’m no longer convinced. He may be a 1st line player here due to lack of talent, but he may only be a 2nd liner on actual good teams. 

I like him, but I don’t see him as being a solid player if he was ever in the playoffs. 

Picture the Sabres in the playoffs. It’s a game 7, game is tied, 4 minutes left in the game. Puck goes into the corner. Do you trust Samson to go in and win that battle? 

Yes, and no doubt he'll be adjusting his helmet after, too. 

[Curt]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Cozens is a prototypical C. 

There's no way Reinhart takes 6 something on a team where Skinner makes 9. He will simply arbitration his way to UFA. 

If Reinhart scored 40 goals, he might get $9M too.  Plus he is an RFA vs Skinner being a UFA.  Plus, if you look at comparable players to Reinhart, I don’t think many got the equivalent of $7M+.

Plus Plus, the NHL’s revenue is in the tank and no one even knows what next season is going to look like.  The cap might actually decrease next season and might stay flat for 3 years.  When Skinner signed, everything financial looked super great, now it looks like *****.  That’s not Sam’s fault, but it’s going to make a real, tangible difference for all FAs.

I see your comment about Sam perhaps wanting to push off signing a long term deal.  That could be true.  I’m just commenting on what I think would get on a long term deal.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Curt

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, Curt said:

If Reinhart scored 40 goals, he might get $9M too.  Plus he is an RFA vs Skinner being a UFA.  Plus, if you look at comparable players to Reinhart, I don’t think many got the equivalent of $7M+.

Plus Plus, the NHL’s revenue is in the tank and no one even knows what next season is going to look like.  The cap might actually decrease next season and might stay flat for 3 years.  When Skinner signed, everything financial looked super great, now it looks like *****.  That’s not Sam’s fault, but it’s going to make a real, tangible difference for all FAs.

Nylander got 7. 

I understand the UFA/RFA distinction but Sam has this franchise over a barrel due to our lack of talent. He's also a better hockey player than Skinner who isn't gonna sign for 33% less. No way. 

Your point about the economics is exactly why I think Sam will be content to push his LT signing off for a couple years. He'll sign a much bigger deal when things are more normal, if we aren't going to pony up now. 

He's remarkably consistent and doesn't miss hockey games. He won't be afraid to wait, that's my reading. What would he fetch in arbitration if he elected for that, two years straight? Would that figure really be lower than the 6 something being suggested here on a LONG TERM deal?

Edited June 24, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

Nothing beats goals come contract time in the NHL. 

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Nothing beats goals come contract time in the NHL. 

Again, Nylander scored a 7 mil per deal after 20 goals. 

Look, I'm just trying to help lol. If you guys want to set your expectations at 6 sometihng...prepare to be disappointed. I'll do cartwheels if I'm wrong, here. I'm going to assume a non-steal contract, because I can't remember the last time we signed a deal where the entire board will go, "wow, great contract!". 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Thorny