The end of Suffering?

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’m getting the sense that everybody wanted it burned down, but only if the Pegulas were among the logs on the fire.

I get where it comes from, but the angst over getting what you’ve been asking for is ironic.

I wanted JBOT replaced with an establish and proven GM.   Which did not happen even though there are options out there right now. 

I get Sexton and Greeley going with JBOT but I think firing all the coaches in Rochester on day 1 was a huge over reaction that screams of cost cutting.  Which they admitted it is. 

If Adams thought that Taylor was focused too much on winning with AHL vets, over development of prospects, then have that "candid conversation".   I don't understand why the Rochester staff had to be gutted.  Again, it tells me the Pegula's do not value their contributions enough and they felt they can find any old coach to run Rochester.  Maybe RK agreed with this?  Don't know. 

The massive layoffs in the Scouting Staff is all cost cutting.  Hopefully they will shore up the group that is left but i doubt they will given the mantra for lean and more use of technology and data bases. 

I bet that they left RK's staff alone so as not to piss him off.  Looking at performance, if there was ever a group to call into question it would be RK's assistants.  The PK and PP units were consistently terrible, but RK's assistants are not accountable or held to the same standard as Taylor was in Rochester. 

I have never been so down on this ownership group as I am now and I pray to God they stay far away from the Bills. 

[SwampD]

35 minutes ago, Gatorman0519 said:

More competent than anyone we've had behind the bench since Lindy left.

Since before Lindy left.

[Drag0nDan]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I wanted JBOT replaced with an establish and proven GM.   Which did not happen even though there are options out there right now. 

I get Sexton and Greeley going with JBOT but I think firing all the coaches in Rochester on day 1 was a huge over reaction that screams of cost cutting.  Which they admitted it is. 

If Adams thought that Taylor was focused too much on winning with AHL vets, over development of prospects, then have that "candid conversation".   I don't understand why the Rochester staff had to be gutted.  Again, it tells me the Pegula's do not value their contributions enough and they felt they can find any old coach to run Rochester.  Maybe RK agreed with this?  Don't know. 

The massive layoffs in the Scouting Staff is all cost cutting.  Hopefully they will shore up the group that is left but i doubt they will given the mantra for lean and more use of technology and data bases. 

I bet that they left RK's staff alone so as not to piss him off.  Looking at performance, if there was ever a group to call into question it would be RK's assistants.  The PK and PP units were consistently terrible, but RK's assistants are not accountable or held to the same standard as Taylor was in Rochester. 

I have never been so down on this ownership group as I am now and I pray to God they stay far away from the Bills. 

I think they looked at Carolina's operation as a team that's gotten by with a lot less.  

I find it hard to blame coaches for the PK struggles - having a goalie with an eye patch was certainly not ideal.  The PP started hot, but never really developing a PP2 unit really hurts there.  I'm not sure its the coaches fault that there wasn't a capable player on the roster able to center that line.

[DarthEbriate]

28 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

If Adams thought that Taylor was focused too much on winning with AHL vets, over development of prospects, then have that "candid conversation".   I don't understand why the Rochester staff had to be gutted.  Again, it tells me the Pegula's do not value their contributions enough and they felt they can find any old coach to run Rochester.  Maybe RK agreed with this?  Don't know.

This comes down to JBot/Sexton/Greeley, though. Taylor doesn't pick his players. So if you want want to develop prospects, then get them to Rochester --- don't have them all on Ilves or in the NHL already (Jokiharju, Mittelstadt). Joker earned his way to the big squad, but he didn't need to be there to start the season -- they had adequately filled the roster to account for the injuries at the start of the season.

If you just want to save money while we don't have AHL hockey, then yeah, I guess gut it. But then you have to rebuild everything again, and might have lost a decent coach. (And it looks bad to the next people you try to hire.) GM Sheevyn could have easily axed them next week after the candid conversations, or just let the contracts expire in 2 weeks. There was no need to slash the AHL staff.

[darksabre]

42 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I wanted JBOT replaced with an establish and proven GM.   Which did not happen even though there are options out there right now. 

I get Sexton and Greeley going with JBOT but I think firing all the coaches in Rochester on day 1 was a huge over reaction that screams of cost cutting.  Which they admitted it is. 

If Adams thought that Taylor was focused too much on winning with AHL vets, over development of prospects, then have that "candid conversation".   I don't understand why the Rochester staff had to be gutted.  Again, it tells me the Pegula's do not value their contributions enough and they felt they can find any old coach to run Rochester.  Maybe RK agreed with this?  Don't know. 

The massive layoffs in the Scouting Staff is all cost cutting.  Hopefully they will shore up the group that is left but i doubt they will given the mantra for lean and more use of technology and data bases. 

I bet that they left RK's staff alone so as not to piss him off.  Looking at performance, if there was ever a group to call into question it would be RK's assistants.  The PK and PP units were consistently terrible, but RK's assistants are not accountable or held to the same standard as Taylor was in Rochester. 

I have never been so down on this ownership group as I am now and I pray to God they stay far away from the Bills. 

The problem with this is that Proven and Established GMs that are on the market are GMs who have been fired for...doing a bad job.

It's rare that a GM gets fired for doing a good job.

Wanting a proven GM is, in my opinion, overrated. It's one of those weird things that generally doesn't actually exist.

[Stoner]

37 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Since before Lindy left.

[Pimlach]

34 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

I think they looked at Carolina's operation as a team that's gotten by with a lot less.  

I find it hard to blame coaches for the PK struggles - having a goalie with an eye patch was certainly not ideal.  The PP started hot, but never really developing a PP2 unit really hurts there.  I'm not sure its the coaches fault that there wasn't a capable player on the roster able to center that line.

I can concede the lack of talent is on JBot, as is the Frolik trade, just drawing attention to the situation.  The PP it was mostly set up to feed Olofsson and not much traffic in front.  The scheme was predictable and lacked variation.  

21 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

This comes down to JBot/Sexton/Greeley, though. Taylor doesn't pick his players. So if you want want to develop prospects, then get them to Rochester --- don't have them all on Ilves or in the NHL already (Jokiharju, Mittelstadt). Joker earned his way to the big squad, but he didn't need to be there to start the season -- they had adequately filled the roster to account for the injuries at the start of the season.

If you just want to save money while we don't have AHL hockey, then yeah, I guess gut it. But then you have to rebuild everything again, and might have lost a decent coach. (And it looks bad to the next people you try to hire.) GM Sheevyn could have easily axed them next week after the candid conversations, or just let the contracts expire in 2 weeks. There was no need to slash the AHL staff.

I agree with mixing AHL vets with developing prospects to form winning culture.  This is one thing JBot did that I liked.   Especially in a rough league like the AHL.   I do think quality coaches like Taylor will think twice about coming to Rochester for awhile.  Perception is reality and the perception about the Sabres organization is very poor.  

Edited June 18, 2020 by Pimlach

[Pimlach]

32 minutes ago, darksabre said:

The problem with this is that Proven and Established GMs that are on the market are GMs who have been fired for...doing a bad job.

It's rare that a GM gets fired for doing a good job.

Wanting a proven GM is, in my opinion, overrated. It's one of those weird things that generally doesn't actually exist.

Perhaps but don’t confuse all GMs falling short as doing a bad job.   Some GMs can get you far, but lack the super star player, or coach, or goalie to get you over the top.   They get replaced after they peak.  That does not mean they did a bad job.  Especially given the product we have had to endure for 9 years. 
 

I would weigh the resume of a proven GM or assistant GM heavily over someone with little hockey operations experience.  Maybe we strike gold with Adams.  He is a go getter.  He is the class favorite too.  Time will tell.  

Edited June 18, 2020 by Pimlach

[Thorner]

13 hours ago, nucci said:

I don't get the optimism around here. 

I think it's a mark of just how bad the perception of Botterill's tenure is, no? People legitimately believed he was tanking the franchise. Any replacement seems better. 

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’m getting the sense that everybody wanted it burned down, but only if the Pegulas were among the logs on the fire.

I get where it comes from, but the angst over getting what you’ve been asking for is ironic.

Did people really think the Pegula's would be gone?

I think people just assumed they'd take the "experienced GM" route this time. 

[Curt]

8 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I bet that they left RK's staff alone so as not to piss him off.  Looking at performance, if there was ever a group to call into question it would be RK's assistants.  The PK and PP units were consistently terrible, but RK's assistants are not accountable or held to the same standard as Taylor was in Rochester. 

I can only hope that this evaluation will come, as I agree that the Assistant Coaches should be heavily scrutinized.

7 hours ago, Drag0nDan said:

I think they looked at Carolina's operation as a team that's gotten by with a lot less.  

I find it hard to blame coaches for the PK struggles - having a goalie with an eye patch was certainly not ideal.  The PP started hot, but never really developing a PP2 unit really hurts there.  I'm not sure its the coaches fault that there wasn't a capable player on the roster able to center that line.

The PK was like record breaking bad. It was terrible even when Hutton was not in net.

[Curt]

7 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I do think quality coaches like Taylor will think twice about coming to Rochester for awhile.  Perception is reality and the perception about the Sabres organization is very poor.  

I don’t know about all that.  Taylor was an AHL assistant coach before he came to Rochester.  He had no track record of quality.  He was not a sought after commodity.  He lead a pretty good Rochester team that had zero playoff success.  I think we are glamorizing him a bit much because most of us like him personally.

[7+6=13]

Count me in the optimist category. 

We've lost most trades, most moves and signings did not work, goalie situation is below average and no answer unless the young kid develops in a couple years.  Nearly every hockey related move has not been a good one.  Developing players to come up and contribute is almost non existent.  Moral of the team is horrible except they seem to really like the coach, but the reason it's so bad is the team as it's filled out sucks.  

If I'm the Pegula's I gut the whole thing too.  I'd be asking myself why I'm paying all these people for such terrible performance too.  It's broken and gutting it is the first step.  How they rebuild it is something we don't have answers to but I'm sure glad it's happening.  

Everyone talks about cost savings - I'm sure all those salaries combined won't equal paying JBot to not work for us.  So they've proven once again they aren't afraid to absorb contracts to make the team better.  I respect them for doing that with both organizations.  Some changes they've made obviously haven't been good - but they've proven that they'll not allow a GM or Coach to stay that extra year when it's not working.  

[CallawaySabres]

This team is totally lost and i am starting to think that Eichel doesn't even make it to 2021.

Hey, maybe that's how they finally get the #2 center...oh well

[JimS]

16 hours ago, Curt said:

I don’t know about all that.  Taylor was an AHL assistant coach before he came to Rochester.  He had no track record of quality.  He was not a sought after commodity.  He lead a pretty good Rochester team that had zero playoff success.  I think we are glamorizing him a bit much because most of us like him personally.

This is not correct. He had offers from other AHL teams, both as an assistant and one as a head coach after Dan Lambert decided not to keep him on. He wanted to stay closer to home since he has a special needs child, and to a lesser extent, work again with the Amerks. He was also the Amerks developmental coach after his playing career ended and one of his biggest strengths was getting players ready to be a professional. A big reason he ran the prospects camp every year.

Two playoffs sweeps, yes, but keep in mind, the series are 5 games.

This move was totally based on the "give and take" of Adams coming on, and that he brings in his own people.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, JimS said:

This is not correct. He had offers from other AHL teams, both as an assistant and one as a head coach after Dan Lambert decided not to keep him on. He wanted to stay closer to home since he has a special needs child, and to a lesser extent, work again with the Amerks. He was also the Amerks developmental coach after his playing career ended and one of his biggest strengths was getting players ready to be a professional. A big reason he ran the prospects camp every year.

Two playoffs sweeps, yes, but keep in mind, the series are 5 games.

This move was totally based on the "give and take" of Adams coming on, and that he brings in his own people.

I’m not saying that Taylor is a bad coach.  I was just responding to someone who said we won’t get another coach as good as Taylor in Rochester anytime soon.

He came to Rochester a young, inexperienced coach.  He had never been a HC before.  He wasn’t some hot shot rising star that “OMG, I can’t believe that we got him in Roch!”  Botterill gave him his first shot as a HC and Taylor did a decent job.  That’s all.  Nothing special.  And don’t get me wrong, I like the guy.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

What the real question is.....

What suffering? 

[Sabre fan]

at the end of the day one cannot blame the Pegulas for getting fed up...they were "informed" by insiders that JBotto was a great hire just as they were told that Housley was a great fit...no one can say they are cheap...they are spending huge money on all the ex=employees they have fired. Bottom line is that Jbotto just did not seem to have a clue what to do to improve this team. It was pretty obvious to any observer (except him apparently) that they need a real bonafide legitimate 2nd line center (yes just llike ROR) but he obviously thought giving him (ROR) away to save some money and getting basically nothing in return was a good idea. That in itself speaks volumes of JBotto's competence and vision moving forward...the PP will improve )as will this team) with a goalie who can see and a 2nd line center who can actually play and contribute