Sabres Announce GM Jason Botterill has been Fired. Kevyn Adams Named GM

[Curt]

54 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Reading between the lines in Kevin’s interviews, particularly the one with Lyskowski, it’s pretty clear that Kevin was a lead - probably THE lead - in Kim’s review of the organization.

I thought it was an external review, no?

[dudacek]

@pimlach 

All valid points. I think you and Kim are probably in agreement about the mistakes of the past, except she will say she trusted the wrong people, you will say she and Terry picked the wrong people and failed to supervise them properly. I’d agree with you.

As far as the Adams selection goes, I can see the logic from her perspective: They told me Lafontaine was good, MUrray was good and Botterill was good. They were wrong. This time I’m going to pick someone I’ve worked with and I know is capable, using a model I know works, from firsthand experience.

Now we just have to watch and see if it was the right call.

11 minutes ago, Curt said:

I thought it was an external review, no?

I believe it was Friedman who said that, yes. Maybe “external” meant outside the hockey department. Maybe there were multiple streams to the review. Maybe his source was wrong.

Edited June 19, 2020 by dudacek

[LabattBlue]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

@pimlach 

All valid points. I think you and Kim are probably in agreement about the mistakes of the past, except she will say she trusted the wrong people, you will say she and Terry picked the wrong people and failed to supervise them well. I’d agree with you.

As far as the Adams selection goes, I can see the logic from her perspective: They told me Lafontaine was good, MUrray was good and Botterill was good. They were wrong. This time I’m going to pick someone I’ve worked with and I know is capable, using a model I know works, from firsthand experience.

Now we just have to watch and see if it was the right call.

The problem is they relied on outsiders for these “recommendations”. Maybe hire an experience VP of hockey ops, let him make the choices and you get out of the way. 
 

What vested interest does an outside have in terms of a correct recommendation?

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

The problem is they relied on outsiders for these “recommendations”. Maybe hire an experience VP of hockey ops, let him make the choices and you get out of the way. 
 

What vested interest does an outside have in terms of a correct recommendation?

You mean Bettman, etc. In recommending Botterill?

[LabattBlue]

Just now, dudacek said:

You mean Bettman, etc. In recommending Botterill?

I mean whomever they have been relying on for advice since buying the team

[Ducky]

I know next to nothing about KA but I would have looked at Ron Hextall's availability. He built a good team in Philly. He drafted well and didn't trade many of his draft picks.

[LabattBlue]

2 minutes ago, Ducky said:

I know next to nothing about KA but I would have looked at Ron Hextall's availability. He built a good team in Philly. He drafted well and didn't trade many of his draft picks.

...but would he keep terry and kim informed of every last thing he does?

Edited June 19, 2020 by LabattBlue

[Doohicksie]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I will vote no and not spend more until I see progress.   

This would be wise based on the past decade.  What happened a month ago is just an infinitesimally small part of that.

 

[Doohicksie]

18 hours ago, Thorny said:

Does this quote bother you, from the ESPN article I linked:

"Are the Sabres the team of Ralph Krueger?

They should be. He's the one guy with the hockey cachet to tell the other links in the chain they're wrong.

We've lobbied in the past for Krueger to take on the dual coach/GM role with the Sabres, in the spirit of a Mike Keenan or a Bryan Murray. But when I asked him if Adams getting the general manager job would lead to Krueger being more involved in hockey operations, the erudite coach replied, "I signed on here to be the head coach of the Buffalo Sabres.""

 

3 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

That quote from Ralph is exactly what I expected him to say in public.  It means absolutely nothing.  IMO, Ralph is the head hockey guy here, not in name right now, but he is.

Yep.  To say anything else is to undermine Adams.  Let him and Adams collaborate on who to bring in and strategize on how to do it, but let Adams make the calls.

[Doohicksie]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

5) Put the hockey department In the hands of two men she has experience working with and trusts to remake it properly, based on a model that is working for her with the Bills.

I'd call it more of a "pattern" than a "model".  A model implies something that is detailed and thought out.  Pattern implies rough similarity.

2 hours ago, bunomatic said:

Now we sit back and watch Ralph and Kevyn rebuild a hockey team. ?

 

fify

[Doohicksie]

2 hours ago, shrader said:

my friend's brother works in the analytics department for the Tampa Bay Rays but lives in the Seattle area.

I've been working virtually for the last three months.  I can totally see that for an analytics person.

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

and asked him to produce the specific chopping block list and then execute the layoffs upon being named GM.

Maybe.  Or maybe it came from the top so that Adams's reputation in the organ EYE zation is that of a builder not a destroyer.

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Reading between the lines in Kevin’s interviews, particularly the one with Lyskowski, it’s pretty clear that Kevin was a lead - probably THE lead - in Kim’s review of the organization.

I think that much of Unicorns, Rainbows and Jujubes Tuesday was a result of that review and a plan put together by an inner circle with Kim and Kevyn in the most prominent roles.

Botteril was presented with the plan and balked. Kim, already less than happy with Botterill, said ***** him, Kevyn, why don’t you take over?

That would certainly explain the timing with respect to the recent vote of confidence in XGMJBot.

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I feel like I heard Adams mention blind spots in one of his interviews and just being aware of them so he can have help. I wish I could remember which interview. 

I think he said something to the effect of not knowing everything, but knowing that he needs to hire the sharp people who do.

[Doohicksie]

50 minutes ago, dudacek said:

his complete lack of empathy for the fans and what we are feeling.

I liked how you used redundancy and that you repeated yourself.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Doohickie
Is the Pedant's Thread still around?

[LTS]

27 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

The problem is they relied on outsiders for these “recommendations”. Maybe hire an experience VP of hockey ops, let him make the choices and you get out of the way. 
 

What vested interest does an outside have in terms of a correct recommendation?

So, if you are feeling burned by the "experienced" hockey people, it's unlikely they were going to hire one who might come in and tell them to hire even more people who won't do anything or whose workloads will be a bit too light.

The outside company has a vested interest because they probably want a good review and recommendation from the Pegulas.  Perhaps there is more business at stake in other areas with the Pegulas, perhaps other opportunities within hockey.  Let's say it works out, people will want to know who that outside consulting group was and how they can bring them in.  

There's a lot of interest in getting it right.  It's not like consultants make their money on a single job.

[LabattBlue]

2 minutes ago, LTS said:

So, if you are feeling burned by the "experienced" hockey people, it's unlikely they were going to hire one who might come in and tell them to hire even more people who won't do anything or whose workloads will be a bit too light.

The outside company has a vested interest because they probably want a good review and recommendation from the Pegulas.  Perhaps there is more business at stake in other areas with the Pegulas, perhaps other opportunities within hockey.  Let's say it works out, people will want to know who that outside consulting group was and how they can bring them in.  

There's a lot of interest in getting it right.  It's not like consultants make their money on a single job.

I don’t think it was a paid outside consulting group. I thought it was just someone from the NHL offices?   Maybe I’m wrong 

Edited June 19, 2020 by LabattBlue

[Curt]

5 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

I don’t think it was a paid outside consulting group. I thought it was just someone from the NHL offices?   Maybe I’m wrong 

My impression was that it was an outside consultant who came in and evaluated their organizational structure and practices.  Not the NHL offices.

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

the timing of the "lengthy and thorough investigation/review of the organization" - if this review was before her statement then it spells a communication problem with the Pegula's.  If the review was after the statement then it was not lengthy (and maybe not thorough) and yet another reactive move where I wonder who they trust and why?   (side note:  I am reading about outside independent consultants.  That is what I do for a living.  You get called when leadership perceives a problem.  Telling them all is good will never get you another gig.)

If you look at what dudacek said, I could envision a timeline like this: 

• After a season behind the bench, RFK has suggested some changes to improve things. 
• JBot thinks it's all good so he does nothing, prompting Kruger to go to Kim with his concerns.
• Adams ordered by Kim to do an independent, bottoms up review of the organization.  (independent, meaning neither Kruger nor JBot are involved in the recommendations).
• Knowing how the coming bloodbath will look, Kim endorse's JBot's tenure to give him cover.
• JBot, seeing how many of "his" people are being purged, balks at the cuts.
• A few weeks of wrangling leads to an impasse so Kim pulls the trigger.

This would be consistent with the criticism that JBot had no empathy with the fans.  The problem with, he had no empathy, and could not reach consensus, with his coworkers.  If this is anywhere close to what happened, the Sabres clearly made the right choice.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Doohickie
Then again, maybe it's just fan fiction.

[dudacek]

9 minutes ago, Curt said:

My impression was that it was an outside consultant who came in and evaluated their organizational structure and practices.  Not the NHL offices.

This is what I perceived as well from Friedman’s initial report. It has also been made very clear from subsequent Friedman reports and Lysowski’s report and Adams’ dodging that Adams was reviewing the hockey department.

It is also being reported, again by Friedman, but I think others as well, that Kim and Terry feel they got bad advice when it came to previous hires. It was widely reported at the time that the NHL was heavily involved in the hiring process that led to Botterill being hired. Pretty easy to connect those dots.

Perhaps these multiple elements are being confused?

Edited June 19, 2020 by dudacek

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

I thought it was an external review, no?

External perhaps, as in no one from hockey ops, particularly not the GM, not the coach.  If there were niggling disagreements between the two men, the review may have simply been Kim's tool to settle them once and for all so they could move forward.  JBot did not comply so that's that.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Doohickie

[dudacek]

7 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

If you look at what dudacek said, I could envision a timeline like this: 

• After a season behind the bench, RFK has suggested some changes to improve things. 
• JBot thinks it's all good so he does nothing, prompting Kruger to go to Kim with his concerns.
• Adams ordered by Kim to do an independent, bottoms up review of the organization.  (independent, meaning neither Kruger nor JBot are involved in the recommendations).
• Knowing how the coming bloodbath will look, Kim endorse's JBot's tenure to give him cover.
• JBot, seeing how many of "his" people are being purged, balks at the cuts.
• A few weeks of wrangling leads to an impasse so Kim pulls the trigger.

This would be consistent with the criticism that JBot had no empathy with the fans.  The problem with, he had no empathy, and could not reach consensus, with his coworkers.  If this is anywhere close to what happened, the Sabres clearly made the right choice.

Two things:

Adams was clearly delving into the hockey department prior to the end of the season: he was assigned to be Botterill’s alternate at the board of governors and travelling with the team. Eyebrows were raised.

Why do you think Ralph had concerns, or went over JBot’s head with them?

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Two things:

Adams was clearly delving into the hockey department prior to the end of the season: he was assigned to be Botterill’s alternate at the board of governors and travelling with the team. Eyebrows were raised.

Why do you think Ralph had concerns, or went over JBot’s head with them?

I have 2 questions that I wish I had answers to. 

Did Ralph want Mitts sent down and for how long before it happened?

Did Ralph want Frolic or did that idea originate with Botterill?

[Curt]

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

External, as in no one from hockey ops, particularly not the GM, not the coach.  If there were niggling disagreements between the two men, the review may have simply been Kim's tool to settle them once and for all so they could move forward.  JBot did not comply so that's that.

My impression was that it was external, as in, from outside the organization.

Where is this stuff about a disagreement between Botterill and Krueger being a main catalyst for all of this coming from???

[Doohicksie]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Adams was clearly delving into the hockey department prior to the end of the season: he was assigned to be Botterill’s alternate at the board of governors and travelling with the team. Eyebrows were raised.

Why do you think Ralph had concerns, or went over JBot’s head with them?

Maybe Adams delving into the hockey department prior to the end of the seasons was part of the independent review.  He wasn't part of the hockey department, he was observing it.  The fact that he was evaluating was not revealed because they wanted to simply see what was going on and didn't want the parties to change their dynamics.

I'm inferring it from the fact that the independent review happened, and the way things turned out.  I don't see a prior cause.  Maybe he didn't even formally go to the Pegulas, maybe they just sensed that while they were on the same page most of the time, they could see some disagreement and wanted to set a clear vision without playing favorites to one man or the other.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Doohickie

[Curt]

6 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Maybe Adams delving into the hockey department prior to the end of the seasons was part of the independent review. 

I'm inferring it from the fact that the independent review happened, and the way things turned out.  I don't see a prior cause.

Your first line is plausible for sure.

But I don’t think friction between Botterill/Krueger was a major factor here.  I think the review happened and one of the major takeaways was Yes, we can cut some people and replace these others who we think aren’t working well for us.  Then Botterill was kind of balking at firing so many of his people.  Eventually the Pegulas and Botterill could not get on the same page about how to move forward, and he was let go.  Then they made all the cuts/changes that they wanted to.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Curt

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Maybe Adams delving into the hockey department prior to the end of the seasons was part of the independent review.  He wasn't part of the hockey department, he was observing it.  The fact that he was evaluating was not revealed because they wanted to simply see what was going on and didn't want the parties to change their dynamics.

I'm inferring it from the fact that the independent review happened, and the way things turned out.  I don't see a prior cause.  Maybe he didn't even formally go to the Pegulas, maybe they just sensed that while they were on the same page most of the time, they could see some disagreement and wanted to set a clear vision without playing favorites to one man or the other.

You don’t think the continued disappointments on the ice warranted an owner-mandated review, in and of themselves?