Eichel’s End of Season Zoom Meeting/Now with Risto Quotes.

[Tondas]

Frankly, I'm going from pissed to ambivalent regarding the Sabres (which is much worse).

Edited May 28, 2020 by Tondas

[Randall Flagg]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

I didn't love the ROR trade nor did I hate it. The beat went on. Nor do I argue for trading Eichel. But it would be fine with me. Trade the whole team. What are we clinging to? The notion that The Plan is going to gloriously succeed one of these years? Trade the whole team and if we're in a playoff run in the spring of 2021 I can guarantee it's going to be, "Rasmi who?" It's the nature of fandom. I cheer for the crest on the front.

I'm not calling you an ROR trade defender, I'm saying that the logic you are employing is indistinguishable from what they were pushing. 

I'll go through it for you though, since you're asking, and viewing the chirp as fan-boying

We had just finished dead last in the NHL. Lots of losing in the previous few years. No players on that team had had any success in Buffalo. Then, ROR's comments happened, and then the trade happened. The typical justification for people who were fine-to-happy with it was, "we didn't do any winning while he was here anyway, so what does it really matter?" I've put lots of work into articulating my problem with this, so I'll post an example, something I wrote about a year ago (from a 6,000+ word diatribe that remains unpublished, and whose cathartic nature allowed me to return to Sabrespace): 

"The first common argument to raise red flags sprang up as rumors of an O’Reilly trade began, whenever that was. “It’s not like we won anything with ROR here anyway.” This is a harmless thought from a fan, but if a GM were to possess it, it would be severely crippling to the team. It is well known that hockey is the ultimate team sport – you cannot pin your hopes on any one, or two, or even three players. To be successful, a team must be built with well-understood and aptly filled roles that work together to perform at a high level as a unit. When a team is bad, you cannot simply dismiss any single component as unnecessary because of team-level results. Squinting at a record, or even a string of bad seasons, from far away and hand-waving away losing a good player because of that is foolish. 

The Sabres were the worst team in the league in 2017-18 for a lot of reasons, understood and outlined by many smart people. No serious watching of the season would suggest that Ryan O’Reilly (or Jack Eichel, or Sam Reinhart, or in general any of the few good players we had) were a driving force for the bad record (which isn’t the same thing as saying that none of them disappointed in one way or another) – The Sabres’ depth scoring beyond their top six players was the worst in the league, because their depth forwards were simply dreadful. Their defense, especially when injuries hit, was pitiful. Their goaltending was awful by eye and even worse when you try to correct for shot quality – no surprise, as Robin Lehner was going through Hell. None of this should ever imply that things that weren’t bad can be tossed aside with no repercussions going forward, which is what “so what, we never did anything with him” implies. The team had one strength, and that was above-average top-6 centers. Jason spoke on numerous occasions, without being pressed, about how vital it was to have Jack and Ryan at the top of our center spine, and he was right. The reality of being fine with letting good pieces go because of team-level results is that for the fifth season after the tank ended, it is entirely possible that we have a grand total of two top-six NHL forwards in our entire organization." 

The beat hasn't gone on. Because indifference toward an asset tainted with losing created a hole that is present in our lineup today, two years later, that may well take years to fill. While some of those problems have slowly gotten fixed, the hole created by your logic applied elsewhere remains our biggest anchor today. When we made that mistake and followed that flawed logic-train the first time, we still had Eichel as a key piece to the most important group of players on any team, the centers. Meanwhile, the player went to a functional situation and literally immediately filled his trophy case with trophies this team has never seen. 

The exact same idea is being put forward by you - a glossing over the intricacies of our on-ice ineptitude that has plagued different areas of the team for years, asserting that the good parts don't seem to matter if we can't build around them right. Well, we've seen what happens when a loser, cancerous, maligned, never-won-anything asset that can play winds up in a competent organization - turns out, he can play, and win quickly. ROR taught us that we should probably fix the actual issues plaguing the team before making up buzzword ones. And Jack doesn't even have anywhere approaching the level of trashy rumor mongering about all that garbage that we had to endure with Ryan, suggesting that it'd be even less likely to work as a "fix" in "theory." 

It's not about old notions of a plan. It's acknowledging that years later we are dealing with a problem of our own creation, based on complete and meaningless fabrications of notions of a player's continual presence being some sort of degradation and underlying rot even if he's good, and we don't have a solution on the horizon. Why, then, does the idea that we should now do it again with an even better hockey player, with 0% of the rumors swirling around him as with Ryan, and leaving behind not an Eichel, but Cozens, Mitts, Lazar, and Asplund as the only centers in the organization remotely close to NHL duty, not deserve to be ground into the dust and spat on?

Sure, if you can guarantee we get back a good return of NHL-proven players equal to or better than Eichel in total value, then go for it. But I said the same thing about ROR and we saw how that turned out, and how unlikely the "Forsberg return" will be. (Note - hindsight makes a lot of those trade proposals look awful, but at the time they were meant to symbolize packages of NHL impact players that will have equal or greater value to a team than a Selke caliber center). 

The reality is that if we are trading Eichel, we are probably getting a player a bit worse than Eichel, a player a lot worse than Eichel, and then a bevy of the prospects and picks we don't know how to develop and can't guarantee anything from, and will be forced to rely on them, further cementing the team's actual problem actually causing the actual losing. 

So the idea is stupid, and it's not as if we haven't thought through this enough to have anything more to offer than a reflexive "god no not my favowite pwayer!!"

This conversation is two years old, and the response remains the same - the problems are easy to spot, meticulously documented and discussed, and most importantly, never improved upon during any of the offseasons Jack has been here, which has been noticed and precisely predicted by myself and many others every time the season starts, where we all get to watch the problems play out as expected. When you have a list of obvious problems, fix them, and don't shoot yourself in the foot giving yourself another spot to fill while assuming a cabal of UFA players and the five nickels you get back in the trade are enough to both cover it and then improve what the problems were. And if you do that, don't blame the guys who aren't the problem and talk yourself into thinking they don't really make a difference either because the team-level results aren't there, and they won't be. Or else round THREE of the cycle begins, while we are still healing the burns from the first go-around (I still feel the entirety of Buffalo blushing about its collective attitude and behavior about ROR and the trade in October-December 2018)
 

The Sabres have no Eichel problem. They have a colossal management problem, a ***** awful roster because of it, and this may be the sign of an ownership problem.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Randall Flagg

[Randall Flagg]

That trade defined the ensuing 3 - 5 seasons of the Sabres, in a negative way, and many of us saw that fact right away when the return scrolled across the screen, our caps-lock raging wasn't just uncalculated emotion. going for round two would be franchise suicide, unless you're getting the fairy tale return. I tip my cap to you if you trust Botterill or any Pegula selection with finding it 

[Indabuff]

1 hour ago, Tondas said:

Frankly, I'm going from pissed to ambivalent regarding the Sabres (which is much worse).

I'm going from ambivalent to Ambien when they play again.

[Brawndo]

3 hours ago, inkman said:

A sensient organization would ingest this sentiment from their franchise player and act on it like shark with blood in the water. Can that squareheaded doof yesterday!!

Friedman reported in his 31 Thoughts that The Sabres Management had already heard everything Jack said today. The fact they still brought him back is quite alarming. 

[irregularly irregular]

9 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Botterill’s GM Chair better be a raging inferno next season, because these comments should be triggering warning alarms at One Seymour Knox Plaza 

He's got 2nd degree burns right now. 365 days from now, the fire will be out because he's proven himself to be totally inadequate as a GM (70% chance IMHO) or because he made HUGE strides during the 2020-21 season and the ship is not sinking(20% chance IMHO). Leaving 10% unknown due to the Pegula's not wanting or being able to make a tough decision. 

[Gatorman0519]

JBot got nothing for ROR.  Worst trade in modern history.  Keep ROR and we’d be in the playoffs right now.  His plan to gut our center spine was an epic failure.  Then overpaid for Skinner.   It seems he has no real plan honestly.  

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

That trade defined the ensuing 3 - 5 seasons of the Sabres, in a negative way, and many of us saw that fact right away when the return scrolled across the screen, our caps-lock raging wasn't just uncalculated emotion. going for round two would be franchise suicide, unless you're getting the fairy tale return. I tip my cap to you if you trust Botterill or any Pegula selection with finding it 

If either Eichel or Dahlin aren't Sabres for at least 10 seasons each (barring career altering injury) I'm out.  They should be lifers.  Reinhart probably should be as well.  Anybody else can be moved for the right price, though there's a couple of guys that, should they be moved, we have to end up saying 'WOW' in a good way for it to be worth it.

There's enough talent here that it doesn't need to be a rebuild to get it right.  They just need to get areas of surplus swapped out for areas of need.  2 moves (3 tops) & this team is in the playoffs and naturally grow into contenders within 2 more years just from the kids becoming men growing into what they are.

[Stoner]

4 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'm not....ownership problem.

Assuming an Eichel trade will bring back trash isn't the right way to go about debating the proposition, nor are insults and self congratulation. You seem to be suggesting that Jack is so good it would be impossible to trade him and win the trade. You would have hated the idea of trading Pierre Turgeon.

Trading Jack is a thought experiment. In mine the Sabres have a good GM and win the trade. Your experiment relies on that GM's ability to put the right pieces around a 10 million player to just get into the playoffs... because we just learned near-peak Eichel isn't enough.

Sorry, I'm not married to the guy. Win the trade and he's another guy who gets booed in Buffalo. Lose it... we suck. We already suck.

The Sabres are hydrochloroquine to me. I'll take my chances with a risky cure. What do we have to lose?

That said he's not getting traded. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by PASabreFan

[spndnchz]

10 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Praised Krueger, said he made him a better leader.

Also
 

https://twitter.com/bjwilsonwgr/status/1266044023678144512?s=21

Duh. “BREAKING NEWS”

[Stoner]

32 minutes ago, Taro T said:

If either Eichel or Dahlin aren't Sabres for at least 10 seasons each (barring career altering injury) I'm out.  They should be lifers.  Reinhart probably should be as well.  Anybody else can be moved for the right price, though there's a couple of guys that, should they be moved, we have to end up saying 'WOW' in a good way for it to be worth it.

There's enough talent here that it doesn't need to be a rebuild to get it right.  They just need to get areas of surplus swapped out for areas of need.  2 moves (3 tops) & this team is in the playoffs and naturally grow into contenders within 2 more years just from the kids becoming men growing into what they are.

This should make people feel good. Have any of your big picture predictions ever panned out?

Exactly how many lifers should a perennial non playoff team have?

[spndnchz]

10 hours ago, Brawndo said:

 

 

Jezz holy out of context Batman. 

[Thorner]

9 hours ago, darksabre said:

The amount of praise Krueger gets, versus the distinct lack of praise for Botterill, is...enlightening.

This was my main takeaway. The contrast between the two says a ton, I think. 

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

There is a great current article in the Athletic about the Canucks/Blackhawks rivalry during their most recent good runs. Players from both sides talk about how much genuine hatred they had for each other and how each game was a war where they constantly were pushing the line physically and psychologically in an attempt to break each other.

These were two teams that mostly get characterized as skill teams, but as skilled as they were, they were also filled with guys who brought it.

We are filled with guys that don’t and Botterill has shown no inclination to want to change that. More Marcus Johanssons aren’t the answer, and trading Risto isn’t the answer. Ryan O’Reillys? Yes please.

Seen this movie before.

 

Agree with this post (though not the bit about not trading Risto, especially if he'll fetch a top 6 piece, but we've been there) and as to the bolded, we have. We all thought he was going to get moved last summer and didn't, it certainly seems like he wants out, but I doubt they move him. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Thorny

[thewookie1]

I wonder if Krueger knows of any GM candidates? 

While his strategy is mediocre he has certainly made Eichel turn into a true captain and seems to have the players' support in general. 

[Taro T]

14 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

This should make people feel good. Have any of your big picture predictions ever panned out?

Exactly how many lifers should a perennial non playoff team have?

As a matter of fact, several have.

This particular 1 should have 2. ?

[Stoner]

On to important things. Why was Jack audio only? If he was taking some stand to the effect that no one needs to see inside my home I think I'd back him.

[7+6=13]

I'm proud of Jack for publicly making these comments.  IMO, it's part of leadership from a player.  He's in a position to put pressure on the front office and he did so.  He without calling out specific players is demanding more from the team.  

JBot appears unqualified to make the right changes but he's now been given clear direction from the players leader.

 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

If either Eichel or Dahlin aren't Sabres for at least 10 seasons each (barring career altering injury) I'm out.  They should be lifers.  Reinhart probably should be as well.  Anybody else can be moved for the right price, though there's a couple of guys that, should they be moved, we have to end up saying 'WOW' in a good way for it to be worth it.

There's enough talent here that it doesn't need to be a rebuild to get it right.  They just need to get areas of surplus swapped out for areas of need.  2 moves (3 tops) & this team is in the playoffs and naturally grow into contenders within 2 more years just from the kids becoming men growing into what they are.

This. One thousand times this.

Eichel and Dahlin are the pieces the sun and the moon and the stars have to align for.

The rest should be able to fall in place almost by accident. That is what is so confounding about Botterill’s failures.

[Billznut]

11 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I am concerned that Eichel is talking about veterans and toughness. I hope he means mental toughness. This teams needs more offensive generators, at 3 least 3 if you already count Kahun, or next year will be more of the same. Stretches of good play bookended by long stretches of bad. No team maintains 82 games of their best hockey. We need to stop believing that and start understanding the Sabres play in the middle of their ability bell curve and that curve ranks them in the bottom 3rd of the league. Maybe botterill should stop lying about veterans talent and start bringing in actual talent. 

Physical toughness and intimidation on the ice creates offensive opportunities that wouldn’t normally be there other than outstanding offensive play.  It’s another way to create opportunities/tilt the ice as us old timers like to say. It’s been something lacking for SOO long with Sabres teams that the average fan here in Buffalo doesn’t even recognize its importance anymore. Except when maybe watching the Stanley cup playoffs and seeing the good teams employing it. 

[Billznut]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

On to important things. Why was Jack audio only? If he was taking some stand to the effect that no one needs to see inside my home I think I'd back him.

Well his last social media posting has him on a beach somewhere. Most likely far from Buffalo. Probably didn’t want a beach as his backdrop to a video call. 

11 hours ago, Brawndo said:

See ya Risto 

He gave almost the exact same answer to the same question last end of season clean out as well. 

[Billznut]

8 hours ago, Brawndo said:

I believe that was one Paul Hamilton 

Yep Paul ‘give me 10 Ham sandwiches’ Hamilton. No one should ever believe one thing that fat f’er ever says. 

[Kristian]

But Kim Pegula likes JBot - And "She realizes, maybe it’s not popular with the fans AND THE STAR NO. 2 DRAFTPICK, but she has to do the things that she feels are right,”

[Kristian]

4 hours ago, Billznut said:

Physical toughness and intimidation on the ice creates offensive opportunities that wouldn’t normally be there other than outstanding offensive play.  It’s another way to create opportunities/tilt the ice as us old timers like to say. It’s been something lacking for SOO long with Sabres teams that the average fan here in Buffalo doesn’t even recognize its importance anymore. Except when maybe watching the Stanley cup playoffs and seeing the good teams employing it. 

During the lockdown I sat down and watched some of the old 1999 Series games.

Wow... Just WOW! Take Dom away, even with Roloson in net, this team was a nightmare to play against, and I feel 100% convinced that the 1999 team would sweep the current Sabres in any series. Without Dom.

No superstars, just plain hard work and the occasional pest.

[Tondas]

3 minutes ago, Kristian said:

But Kim Pegula likes JBot - And "She realizes, maybe it’s not popular with the fans AND THE STAR NO. 2 DRAFTPICK, but she has to do the things that she feels are right,”

I've never been impressed with either Terry or Kim's management/executive abilities.  They made a ton of money running a smallish family business in an industry that peaked at the right time for them.  I think they think because they're rich, it makes them smart, savvy business people.  It doesn't work that way.  Until they lose the ego, we're in for more "suffering."

[Drag0nDan]

13 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

That trade defined the ensuing 3 - 5 seasons of the Sabres, in a negative way, and many of us saw that fact right away when the return scrolled across the screen, our caps-lock raging wasn't just uncalculated emotion. going for round two would be franchise suicide, unless you're getting the fairy tale return. I tip my cap to you if you trust Botterill or any Pegula selection with finding it 

I think for me it was like... thats all it took to get traded?  He didn't have a long drawn out issue with management or ownership.  He just made an emotional statement after a terrible season.  

I don't see how JB saw that compensation and was like - LETS GOOOOOO! I feel like deep down TP forced his hand to remove a guy who had poorly represented the team in the media.

Housley was a terrible coach, JB probably should've been fired with him tbh.