Is Botterill to blame for the Sabres Cap Troubles?

[Taro T]

11 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I don't really get this feeling at all, personally. He's well beyond the realm of  "normal badness". He's, so far, been one of the worst GMs in franchise history, easily. Odds are the next guy will in fact be substantially better, even if they are just mediocre, or, average. 

I also disagree he's only had one awful move, and I don't believe the worst of his big awful is mitigated at all: worse than trading ROR was not replacing him in 2 years since. Besides, with Botterill, it's always been more about death by a thousand cuts - he makes so many head-scratching decisions they can't not add up to insurmountable sucktitude. 

Except, you rescind the O'Reilly trade, and this team legit, not via the 'everyone better than the Sabres get in' rule, makes the playoffs.  Even with the goaltending what it is, 1 friggin' non-move puts them in the dance.  (No Cozens, but that's ok.[

And, nobody has made a compelling case that the owners didn't tie his hands into the 'he's traded today regardless' position which made the trade essentially the Selke winner for Thompson, Johnson, & a Lucky 7 Lotto ticket.  Make the return Lindholm & Skinner or better yet don't make that trade & he doesn't look like Jim Neighbor's most famous character playing a GM ffg or yuks.

And, he's only had 1 bad move that mattered.  Frolik stinks no matter how you slice it, but that was stepping into dog poo getting out of the 'Stang you just wrapped around a tree.  Don't ruin the car & you likely don't step in the pooch's efforts.  The rest of the bad ones are offset by Jokiharju, Kahun, Johansson, & Lazar and being smart enough to not throw Olofsson into a deal.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Except, you rescind the O'Reilly trade, and this team legit, not via the 'everyone better than the Sabres get in' rule, makes the playoffs.  Even with the goaltending what it is, 1 friggin' non-move puts them in the dance.  (No Cozens, but that's ok.[

And, nobody has made a compelling case that the owners didn't tie his hands into the 'he's traded today regardless' position which made the trade essentially the Selke winner for Thompson, Johnson, & a Lucky 7 Lotto ticket.  Make the return Lindholm & Skinner or better yet don't make that trade & he doesn't look like Jim Neighbor's most famous character playing a GM ffg or yuks.

And, he's only had 1 bad move that mattered.  Frolik stinks no matter how you slice it, but that was stepping into dog poo getting out of the 'Stang you just wrapped around a tree.  Don't ruin the car & you likely don't step in the pooch's efforts.  The rest of the bad ones are offset by Jokiharju, Kahun, Johansson, & Lazar and being smart enough to not throw Olofsson into a deal.

The bold is a solid point. But again, it's the fact he didn't address the position afterwords that is the biggest issue! He is 100%, totally to blame for that. There was *always* a chance the trade wasn't going to work out in our favour, Botterill shouldn't have been shopping him in the first place, and that was his idea, too. 

As to the second bolded, the burden of proof is on your side, the side that says Pegula forced the trade. That's all rumour at this point. Until otherwise proven, Botterill eats the whole deal. 

The third bold, I'm sorry, not snark, are you joking? He's had 1 bad move that mattered, that's your contention? His team finished in 31st, 27th, and 25th place! Whether by moves, or lack of moves, he's made a ton of bad decisions that have mattered, certainly.

Just because we'd be a playoff team WITH ROR (who he decided to trade in the first place) doesn't mean we COULDN'T have been one without him. He's done a ton of things that have mattered. That would be like saying, if he would have ponied up for Trochek or accepted the Ehlers for Risto trade we'd be a playoff team, so one of those is the only error that matters. And it's not like delineations of good/bad aren't a thing. We'd have very likely been a 16-team playoff team with ROR, but we'd also be a lot weaker a team for several of Botterill's more egregious errors. Those things will matter when we are actually looking to move up the contender ranks. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Thorny

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The bold is a solid point. But again, it's the fact he didn't address the position afterwords that is the biggest issue! He is 100%, totally to blame for that. There was *always* a chance the trade wasn't going to work out in our favour, Botterill shouldn't have been shopping him in the first place, and that was his idea, too. 

As to the second bolded, the burden of proof is on your side, the side that says Pegula forced the trade. That's all rumour at this point. Until otherwise proven, Botterill eats the whole deal. 

Except he HAS addressed the issue.  He's drafted Cozens & brought in GA's boy Johansson (who several of us were also in on).  He hasn't adequately addressed it yet.  But don't agree that not addressing filling O'Reilly's hole is as big of an issue as creating it in the 1st place.  If the hole isn't dug, it doesn't have to be filled.  And trying to replace a Selke winner is a big friggin' hole to fill.

And, am willing to take responsibility for proving that the owners were behind trading him the day he was traded, just as soon as you PROVE that it was Botterill that wanted him shopped to begin with.

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Except he HAS addressed the issue.  He's drafted Cozens & brought in GA's boy Johansson (who several of us were also in on).  He hasn't adequately addressed it yet.  But don't agree that not addressing filling O'Reilly's hole is as big of an issue as creating it in the 1st place.  If the hole isn't dug, it doesn't have to be filled.  And trying to replace a Selke winner is a big friggin' hole to fill.

And, am willing to take responsibility for proving that the owners were behind trading him the day he was traded, just as soon as you PROVE that it was Botterill that wanted him shopped to begin with.

Again, the GM makes trades. If ROR was being shopped, it's on you to prove it was Pegula ordering it. We also know of specific instances where it came up that ROR was in the rumor mill as being apparently shopped by Botterill, from noted, verified reporters, well before he was actually moved. 

I'll see if i can find some stuff. 

- - - 

Regardless, there was so much beyond ROR in my post. It's assuredly not the only bad move he made that mattered. Has his handling of the goaltending situation mattered? His handling of Reinhart's contract mattered? His hiring of Housley mattered? His handling of Mittelstadt? 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Except he HAS addressed the issue.  He hasn't adequately addressed it yet. 

 

Hang a GD banner

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Again, the GM makes trades. If ROR was being shopped, it's on you to prove it was Pegula ordering it. We also know of specific instances where it came up that ROR was in the rumor mill as being apparently shopped by Botterill, from noted, verified reporters, well before he was actually moved. 

I'll see if i can find some stuff. 

And you showing he was being shopped (via rumors) doesn't prove the owners didn't say they wanted him gone.  He embarrassed them with his trip to the Timmy's "drive though" and ticked them off with getting his big bro set up as a great foster brother to the new shiny toy.  

Really don't know which came 1st, the Pegulas saying get him out of here or Botterill saying he could be a major trade piece to retool.  But, looking at the circumstances of the trade & the pitiful return they got, there's no way Botterill said "I'll submarine the team to save Terry $7.5MM."  And again, the onus is on you 1st & we have Randall's quote of Botterill that the strength of the team was the C spine.

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Hang a GD banner

You're just being petulant now.  Please show me where any of the posts you take issue with indicate we should celebrate in any way his accomplishments. 

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And you showing he was being shopped (via rumors) doesn't prove the owners didn't say they wanted him gone.  He embarrassed them with his trip to the Timmy's "drive though" and ticked them off with getting his big bro set up as a great foster brother to the new shiny toy.  

Really don't know which came 1st, the Pegulas saying get him out of here or Botterill saying he could be a major trade piece to retool.  But, looking at the circumstances of the trade & the pitiful return they got, there's no way Botterill said "I'll submarine the team to save Terry $7.5MM."  And again, the onus is on you 1st & we have Randall's quote of Botterill that the strength of the team was the C spine.

So you consider this proof to the point the onus is solely on me, and without it, you've proven it was Pegula's idea to move him in the first place? Come on. 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Thorny

[Taro T]

Just now, Thorny said:

So you consider this proof to the point the onus is solely on me, and without it, you've proven it was Pegula's idea to move him in the first place? Come on. 

You want proof that the Pegulas affected the trade.  There's a heck of a lot more evidence of that than them not having effected it.  As soon as you prove the latter, we can worry about the former. My realization that there are exactly 3 people who know for certain the truth to both allows me to defer to you to prove your contention 1st.

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

You want proof that the Pegulas affected the trade.  There's a heck of a lot more evidence of that than them not having effected it.  As soon as you prove the latter, we can worry about the former. My realization that there are exactly 3 people who know for certain the truth to both allows me to defer to you to prove your contention 1st.

No, I believe Pegula imposed the timeframe on the trade to avoid paying the bonus. But that's just my personal belief. I believe that because it's been heavily rumoured. Just like I believe Botterill was shopping ROR for a long time previous because it was heavily rumoured. 

But the rumour isn't that Pegula told Botts to move ROR, it's always been centered around the bonus. We know he was being shopped, and that's the GM's job. If you want to contend that Pegula also initiated that process, the burden would be on you. 

- - - 

Again, regardless, there are so many other things he has done wrong, all of which matter, none of which are mitigated simply because he, hypothetically could have been somewhat hampered on a trade that hypothetically may have had us in the playoffs had it gone otherwise. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Thorny

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

No, I believe Pegula imposed the timeframe on the trade to avoid paying the bonus. I believe that because it's been heavily rumoured. Just like I believe Botterill was shopping ROR for a long time previous because it was heavily rumoured. 

So, your contention is that Botterill wanted to move O'Reilly to improve the club even in the off-season though he KNEW that even considering to move him then that he would not be able to pay him the $7.5MM he was due on July 1 which would necessarily lower his trade value?

So, the Pegulas were ok with keeping him, but if he moved it had to be before they paid him a nickel.  Is that really your contention? 

[Thorner]

47 minutes ago, Taro T said:

So, your contention is that Botterill wanted to move O'Reilly to improve the club even in the off-season though he KNEW that even considering to move him then that he would not be able to pay him the $7.5MM he was due on July 1 which would necessarily lower his trade value?

So, the Pegulas were ok with keeping him, but if he moved it had to be before they paid him a nickel.  Is that really your contention? 

Possibly. I think either the bonus was the biggest sticking point to Pegula, "We sure as hell aren't giving that guy an extra 7.5 out of my pocket if we are sending him to another team", or, he grew accustomed to the idea of moving him after Botterill suggested it as a way to improve depth. 

They may have both come to the conclusion. Point being, there is absolutely zero reason to absolve Botterill of all or even most of the blame on this thing, he bears blame on it, as do ownership. Add in his failure to address the position, it's a massive black mark. When it's added into the cacophony of other poor moves, it adds up to a GM so far below average firing him shouldn't be a second thought. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Thorny

[Billznut]

12 hours ago, darksabre said:

Murray was a mess. There's no getting away from that. The guy might have been a good GM but he couldn't act like a professional. That's his fault more than anything. 

Botterill feels like an overcorrection from Murray. The Pegulas decided "culture" was important and wanted someone more professional. I can't blame them for that.

The problem is that just because someone can take a shower and not curse his bosses out doesn't mean they'll be good at their job. 

Ideally, that would be the case though lol 

1000% Agreed. I don’t know if we know any of the same people/Sabres employees or not, but I know for a FACT that Murray wasn’t fired because of any moves he made or didn’t make or progression or lack thereof with the team. He was fired because of his extreme and very common use of cursing while discussing organizational matters with the 2 owners, who were appalled and embarrassed by it. One owner more than the other. 

[Billznut]

18 minutes ago, Taro T said:

You want proof that the Pegulas affected the trade.  There's a heck of a lot more evidence of that than them not having effected it.  As soon as you prove the latter, we can worry about the former. My realization that there are exactly 3 people who know for certain the truth to both allows me to defer to you to prove your contention 1st.

You’re not wrong 

[Taro T]

11 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Possibly. I think either the bonus was the biggest sticking point to them, "We sure as hell aren't giving that guy an extra 7.5 out of my pocket if we are sending him to another team", or, the grew accustomed to the idea of moving him after Botterill suggested it as a way to improve depth. 

That doesn't make sense.  What would O'Reilly have done in Botterill's eyes to make him such a cancer on the team to be worth moving off the roster without eating his $7.5MM bonus?

The Pegulas could cite: Timmy Ho's, Cal's fostering Alex, & ROR being Murray's pet acquisition as reasons THEY wanted him gone without paying another dime.  (His mopey locker clean out interview being the final straw on top of Murray being the GM that was canned in no small part due (per rumors) his tone & demeanor to 1 of the owners & his having brought the Kane fiascos to town as well.)  (And, IMHO, the locker clean out story was simply a red herring.)

There was NO indication that Botts wanted O'Reilly gone at ALL costs.  Which is what trading him when he did ended up.  There was that ownership might want him gone.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Taro T

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, Taro T said:

That doesn't make sense.  What would O'Reilly have done in Botterill's eyes to make him such a cancer on the team to be worth moving off the roster without eating his $7.5MM bonus?

The Pegulas could cite: Timmy Ho's, Cal's fostering Alex, & ROR being Murray's pet acquisition as reasons THEY wanted him gone without paying another dime.  (His mopey locker clean out interview being the final straw on top of Murray being the GM that was canned in no small part due (per rumors) his tone & demeanor to 1 of the owners & his having brought the Kane fiascos to town as well.)  (And, IMHO, the locker clean out story was simply a red herring.)

There was NO indication that Botts wanted O'Reilly gone at ALL costs.  Which is what trading him when he did ended up.  There was that ownership might want him gone.

But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Botterill may have been content to wait on a move, but Pegula refused to pay the bonus. He was reportedly shopping him at the 2018 deadline. Didn't get the offers he wanted. I don't think Terry was willing to wait so long that he'd be down another 7.5 mil to a guy he, like you said, probably didn't think all that highly of. 

There could be a big difference in someone's mind between paying that money out to someone who still has to call you their boss, or to someone (you don't like) "getting what they want" after being traded. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Thorny

[Billznut]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

That doesn't make sense.  What would O'Reilly have done in Botterill's eyes to make him such a cancer on the team to be worth moving off the roster without eating his $7.5MM bonus?

The Pegulas could cite: Timmy Ho's, Cal's fostering Alex, & ROR being Murray's pet acquisition as reasons THEY wanted him gone without paying another dime.  (His mopey locker clean out interview being the final straw on top of Murray being the GM that was canned in no small part due (per rumors) his tone & demeanor to 1 of the owners & his having brought the Kane fiascos to town as well.)  (And bbn personally, IMHO, the locker clean out story was simply a red herring.)

There was NO indication that Botts wanted O'Reilly gone at ALL costs.  Which is what trading him when he did ended up.  There was that ownership might want him gone.

I think Botterill is a terrible GM. But I don’t believe even he is a big enough idiot to come up with the idea to trade O’Reilly all by himself. NO chance. This directive came from above, almost assuredly for the exact reasons you listed. He made mistakes embarrassing to the organization and then the locker room statement. That is ALL it takes to cross the team president and earn a one way ticket out of town. To hasten it before July 1st and save on the bonus? That is 100% an ownership decision. 

[Taro T]

Just now, Thorny said:

But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Botterill may have been content to wait on a move, but Pegula refused to pay the bonus. 

So, if Botterill realizes he'll get more for trading O'Reilly later, then it would be the Pegulas driving the trade that happens before the bonus is due.  Right...?  So we agree on MY point.  How about proving the idea was Botterill's in the 1st place.

[Thorner]

21 minutes ago, Taro T said:

So, if Botterill realizes he'll get more for trading O'Reilly later, then it would be the Pegulas driving the trade that happens before the bonus is due.  Right...?  So we agree on MY one single (point) you were making out of several.  How about proving the idea was Botterill's in the 1st place.

Have at it, man. It's baby's bed time.  ?

Edited May 29, 2020 by Thorny

[Marvin]

If the guys in the arena I know can be believed (variously, fans, Sabres employees, visiting hockey people), it was rumored all 2017-8.  Rumours were particularly strong at the last home game before the TDL, there were at least 4 separate discussions in different sections about the rumored return for ROR.  FWIW, one guy in a marketing booth (Sabres employee) held court about one rumour (Carolina?) and said that JNot initiated the idea and that Pegula was OK with his judgement.

At the Dahlin draft party, at least 3 different rumours on trades were discussed by the ushers and guards.  One person was on the phone with one of the draft guys at Rogers said the trade was 3OA for him if Montreal accepted.  He yelled it and for the next several seconds, people came stumbling helter-skelter out of the port-a-potties asking for confirmation.  (I was in line.)

Based on this and other information, my theory that fits the facts and hints as I know them is that JBottom felt he needed to trade ROR (3 different reasons cited, NONE of which were that Eichel and ROR did not get along -- according to my sources).  When it was coming to the bonus, Pegula said, "trade him before the bonus or keep him all of next season."

And here we are.

[Ruff Around The Edges]

14 hours ago, Taro T said:

Which explains my ambivalence to firing Botterill.  There is NO faith here that the next hire will be better.  Combine that with his only truly awful move that mattered (yes, trading for Frolik stunk as did a couple others, but bad trades for fringe players doesn't really move the needle, ymmv) having to have been influenced by ownership's unwillingness to pay a signing bonus, and it becomes: are you better off with the devil you know or the one you don't?  Most of the board wants to try the new one.  Not there yet.

Agree, what this franchise really needs is a President at the top of the food chain. Its a shame the LaFontaine move was a disaster because someone needs to get in Terry's ear that is the way to go these days. Get someone in here to be the figurehead at the top and hire the right GM and coach and let Terry focus on being a fan and focus on that.

Kruger for Team President?

[Kruppstahl]

I personally blame Botterill for everything, including climate change and Covid 19.

 

 

[Curt]

5 minutes ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

Agree, what this franchise really needs is a President at the top of the food chain. Its a shame the LaFontaine move was a disaster because someone needs to get in Terry's ear that is the way to go these days. Get someone in here to be the figurehead at the top and hire the right GM and coach and let Terry focus on being a fan and focus on that.

Kruger for Team President?

Unfortunately, I don’t think that is what the Pegulas want.  They seem to want to be intimately involved in the day to day stuff.

[freester]

8 minutes ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

Agree, what this franchise really needs is a President at the top of the food chain. Its a shame the LaFontaine move was a disaster because someone needs to get in Terry's ear that is the way to go these days. Get someone in here to be the figurehead at the top and hire the right GM and coach and let Terry focus on being a fan and focus on that.

Kruger for Team President?

We don't need a president just a competent GM. 

[bob_sauve28]

On 5/28/2020 at 9:27 AM, darksabre said:

Oddly enough Skinner's contract doesn't bother me. He'll bounce back. 

Which would solve nice part of the scoring problems. I also think/hope he will be better next year.