Is Botterill to blame for the Sabres Cap Troubles?

[Brawndo]

 

[Randall Flagg]

Gonna take a break from busting Chad's balls because this is exactly what I tried and failed to look up yesterday. 

I didn't realize jason tried to claim the Oreilly move opened up cap for the skinner trade.

His cap space claims are disengenuous .

He either thinks we are dumb or doesn't care about us because he knows Terry and Kim are dumb 

 

 

[darksabre]

Yes, yes he is.

[LGR4GM]

We've mentioned botts cap bs before. It's a straight lie that he had to wait until now because the cap handcuffed him. 

[darksabre]

He has done such a poor job in all aspects of asset management that it's hard to believe Murray would have done worse.

[freester]

The article omits that Skinner's contract is the worst in the league.  Botteril is utterly and completely incompetent in all aspects of being a GM.

[darksabre]

12 minutes ago, freester said:

The article omits that Skinner's contract is the worst in the league.  Botteril is utterly and completely incompetent in all aspects of being a GM.

Oddly enough Skinner's contract doesn't bother me. He'll bounce back. 

[Randall Flagg]

Skinner's cap hit is gross but he's gonna score big goals for us throughout the duration of it, so I will just pretend we are paying 6.5 for Skinner and 2.5 for someone we bought out or something 

[Curt]

Botterill is completely responsible for the current state of the team.  With that being said, the Buffalo Sabres do not have cap troubles.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Curt

[nfreeman]

10 minutes ago, Curt said:

Botterill is completely responsible for the current state of the team.  With that being said, the Buffalo Sabres do not have cap troubles.

Yes, but Chad's point (which echoes what a number of posters here have said) is valid:  JB didn't take over a terrible cap situation, and he hasn't created a great cap situation.  He took over an OK cap situation, and he's managed it into...an OK cap situation.  There is certainly nothing about the Sabres' cap situation, either when JB took over or now, that excuses the team's performance under JB.

[DarthEbriate]

Don't act so surprised, your highness. You weren't on any cap savings quest this season.

JBot must be mistaking ROR & Skinner. We let Kane go and replaced his salary (plus) with Skinner, not ROR. More accurately, trading for ROR allowed St. Louis the "resources and cap space" to maintain themselves as a Cup contender because Bozak was younger-better Berglund, and Schenn is a solid center in his own right.

As to the main cruxes: 1) It's in the middle of the article. We brought in more salary for ROR than he cost us... for nearly 0% of the production. 2) We have a boatload of RFAs this year. This is great if Seattle is picking from our roster this year, nearly everyone important is easily protected. Except of course, expansion is next year. And to sign these RFAs is going to cost nearly all the space we have (unless some team tries to pry away Olofsson at $10M/year and we take the 4 first-round picks...).  and 3) Kahun looks like a good pickup, but it was a bad pickup for a full season because his and Dahlin's bonuses (albeit saved by ending the year early), put the team in a further bind. This would be OK if not for ... replacing Scandella's salary with Frolik's salary. That $4M was a terrible add-on.

I still like some of the things JBot has done. I liked some of the things every GM has done the last 10 years...   but cap genius is not on his resume.

Edited May 28, 2020 by DarthEbriate

[Drag0nDan]

23 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Yes, but Chad's point (which echoes what a number of posters here have said) is valid:  JB didn't take over a terrible cap situation, and he hasn't created a great cap situation.  He took over an OK cap situation, and he's managed it into...an OK cap situation.  There is certainly nothing about the Sabres' cap situation, either when JB took over or now, that excuses the team's performance under JB.

Came in and had terrible deals - moulson, bogo, okposo.  JB then sprinkled some more terrible deals in - Pominville (1 year too many), Scandella (at times a healthy scratch), Sheary (basically 5 million for him since you have to include hunwicks deal), and then Berg/Sobotka. 

I thought he did better this year with rentals (simmonds, frolik, vesey) being... rentals.  They didn't work out, oh well, they're gone. 

Mojo seems like he has a role in a middle 6, i don't think its Center though.  The salary dump of sheary/rodrigues for kahun was actually a really nice move.  But uhhh the other stuff he did - yuck.  

[Curt]

31 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Yes, but Chad's point (which echoes what a number of posters here have said) is valid:  JB didn't take over a terrible cap situation, and he hasn't created a great cap situation.  He took over an OK cap situation, and he's managed it into...an OK cap situation.  There is certainly nothing about the Sabres' cap situation, either when JB took over or now, that excuses the team's performance under JB.

 

45 minutes ago, Curt said:

Botterill is completely responsible for the current state of the team.  With that being said, the Buffalo Sabres do not have cap troubles.

Yes, hence the first of my two sentences.  The one that you didn’t highlight.

Botterill doesn’t have excuses.  

[DarthEbriate]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

Botterill is completely responsible for the current state of the team.  With that being said, the Buffalo Sabres do not have cap troubles.

 

49 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

JB didn't take over a terrible cap situation, and he hasn't created a great cap situation.  He took over an OK cap situation, and he's managed it into...an OK cap situation.

This is all too true. We aren't in a cap hell. And we won't be threatened by it until we extend Dahlin. Once we have Eichel and Dahlin both at 10+ or so (wrench caveat: salary cap TBD once the COVID economy settles) then JBot will have the opportunity to put us into cap troubles. That's when we'll need a cap-savvy GM (be it JBot or his successor).

JBot has "kicked the can down the road" to refer to the article, or been treading water, when really we needed to take advantage of having 2 excellent young players who aren't yet breaking the bank.

[dudacek]

Get used to the above.

Unless we get a positive blip in the lottery, it’s about all we have to look forward to until the fall. Because there will be nothing significant done to change this team until this delayed season is done, not even the draft.

And it will probably be December before the masterpiece Botterill has promised to paint the Pegulas with his $35 million blank canvas takes to the ice.

Edited May 28, 2020 by dudacek

[darksabre]

21 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Get used to the above.

Unless we get a positive blip in the lottery, it’s about all we have to look forward to until the fall. Because there will be nothing significant done to change this team until this delayed season, not even the draft.

And it will probably be December before the masterpiece Botterill has promised to paint the Pegulas with his $35 million blank canvas takes to the ice.

The problem with Botterill's "cap space" is that he actually doesn't have any because he has to sign so many players to even ice an NHL roster next season. He's going to get back-burnered by every FA looking to sign with a team that actually has half a roster.

Who would want to sign here before they know whether or not their linemates are going to be a bunch of AHLers, undrafted college players, and overagers from Europe?

Who's ready for Botterill to overpay some players!

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, darksabre said:

He has done such a poor job in all aspects of asset management that it's hard to believe Murray would have done worse.

But, but , but … Murray was not a "good communicator". 

Reasons Pegula picked Botterill:

1.  Botterill went to a top college and has an MBA, this would go a long way in fixing the "communication" issues.  (Terry's #1 complaint of Murray)

2.  He is the only Canadian to ever win a Gold Medal in three straight World Junior Hockey Championships.  (Terry likes to tout this silly factoid).

3.  He was in the Pittsburgh organ-eye-zation so he must be good.  (Trusted people from Pittsburgh told him so)

4.  Bots minor league experience and role at Pittsburgh would benefit the Sabres and Amerks.  (Terry thought the Amerks we neglected by Murray) 

5.  He would be more likely to listen to Terry and Kim over an experienced/proven GM who might pull a Lafontaine and bolt on them.  (my opinion here) 

Some of these reasons (see 1, 2, and 5) are silly and point to the naiveté of the Pegulas.   The NHL business culture is not the same as the Natural Gas business, or even the NFL for that matter.  

We see a flawed product on the ice and we see flawed execution off the ice too - need a real hockey person to run everything. 

[darksabre]

1 minute ago, Pimlach said:

But, but , but … Murray was not a "good communicator". 

Reasons Pegula picked Botterill:

1.  Botterill went to a top college and has an MBA, this would go a long way in fixing the "communication" issues.  (Terry's #1 complaint of Murray)

2.  He is the only Canadian to ever win a Gold Medal in three straight World Junior Hockey Championships.  (Terry likes to tout this silly factoid).

3.  He was in the Pittsburgh organ-eye-zation so he must be good.  (Trusted people from Pittsburgh told him so)

4.  Bots minor league experience and role at Pittsburgh would benefit the Sabres and Amerks.  (Terry thought the Amerks we neglected by Murray) 

5.  He would be more likely to listen to Terry and Kim over an experienced/proven GM who might pull a Lafontaine and bolt on them.  (my opinion here) 

Some of these reasons (see 1, 2, and 5) are silly and point to the naiveté of the Pegulas.   The NHL business culture is not the same as the Natural Gas business, or even the NFL for that matter.  

We see a flawed product on the ice and we see flawed execution off the ice too - need a real hockey person to run everything. 

Murray was a mess. There's no getting away from that. The guy might have been a good GM but he couldn't act like a professional. That's his fault more than anything. 

Botterill feels like an overcorrection from Murray. The Pegulas decided "culture" was important and wanted someone more professional. I can't blame them for that.

The problem is that just because someone can take a shower and not curse his bosses out doesn't mean they'll be good at their job. 

Ideally, that would be the case though lol 

[Curt]

5 minutes ago, darksabre said:

The problem with Botterill's "cap space" is that he actually doesn't have any because he has to sign so many players to even ice an NHL roster next season. He's going to get back-burnered by every FA looking to sign with a team that actually has half a roster.

Who would want to sign here before they know whether or not their linemates are going to be a bunch of AHLers, undrafted college players, and overagers from Europe?

Who's ready for Botterill to overpay some players!

There won’t be a lot of extra cap space, but there will probably be a few $M.  Enough to upgrade a bottom 6 type salary to a top 6 type salary for one player.

This of course is impossible to speak on with any certainty because we don’t have a very good idea what the cap will be.

Also, having cap flexibility can be useful.  It creates the ability to take on salary in a trade because you aren’t locked in to many contracts and can shift things around more easily.

Botterill will have a little bit of cap space and a ton of flexibility to work with this offseason.

[Ruff Around The Edges]

When Botterill is fired and we mean when, I hope they decide on hiring someone with real GM experience this next go around, similar to Ken Holland in Edmonton.

[Taro T]

5 hours ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

When Botterill is fired and we mean when, I hope they decide on hiring someone with real GM experience this next go around, similar to Ken Holland in Edmonton.

Sadly, they'll likely decide on hiring someone with real GM experience this next go around, similar to Peter Chiarelli in Edmonton.

[Sabel79]

12 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Sadly, they'll likely decide on hiring someone with real GM experience this next go around, similar to Peter Chiarelli in Edmonton.

I wouldn't put it past them to actually hire Peter Chiarelli at this point.

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Sabel79 said:

I wouldn't put it past them to actually hire Peter Chiarelli at this point.

Which explains my ambivalence to firing Botterill.  There is NO faith here that the next hire will be better.  Combine that with his only truly awful move that mattered (yes, trading for Frolik stunk as did a couple others, but bad trades for fringe players doesn't really move the needle, ymmv) having to have been influenced by ownership's unwillingness to pay a signing bonus, and it becomes: are you better off with the devil you know or the one you don't?  Most of the board wants to try the new one.  Not there yet.

[Thorner]

13 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Yes, but Chad's point (which echoes what a number of posters here have said) is valid:  JB didn't take over a terrible cap situation, and he hasn't created a great cap situation.  He took over an OK cap situation, and he's managed it into...an OK cap situation.  There is certainly nothing about the Sabres' cap situation, either when JB took over or now, that excuses the team's performance under JB.

Exactly. 

There is an idea going around, I believe Wawrow used the words, that Botterill is "finally free" to manipulate the roster this summer. It's such bs. 

[Thorner]

41 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Which explains my ambivalence to firing Botterill.  There is NO faith here that the next hire will be better.  Combine that with his only truly awful move that mattered (yes, trading for Frolik stunk as did a couple others, but bad trades for fringe players doesn't really move the needle, ymmv) having to have been influenced by ownership's unwillingness to pay a signing bonus, and it becomes: are you better off with the devil you know or the one you don't?  Most of the board wants to try the new one.  Not there yet.

I don't really get this feeling at all, personally. He's well beyond the realm of  "normal badness". He's, so far, been one of the worst GMs in franchise history, easily. Odds are the next guy will in fact be substantially better, even if they are just mediocre, or, average. 

I also disagree he's only had one awful move, and I don't believe the worst of his big awful is mitigated at all: worse than trading ROR was not replacing him in 2 years since. Besides, with Botterill, it's always been more about death by a thousand cuts - he makes so many head-scratching decisions they can't not add up to insurmountable sucktitude. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Thorny