Rasmus Dahlin at 20

[Refuting]

  On 7/10/2020 at 2:29 PM, LGR4GM said:

That's it? Talk about not trying. 

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Says the guy who didn't try at all. Nice 1 sentence response. 

How is Dahlin better than Svechnikov? 

[LGR4GM]

  On 7/10/2020 at 2:31 PM, Toilet_Mop said:

Says the guy who didn't try at all. Nice 1 sentence response. 

How is Dahlin better than Svechnikov? 

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Well for starters, at the most basic level, he has 14 fewer points in 9 less games while playing defense on a easily worse team than Svechnikov. He is on the ice more, has more on ice responsibility, is 19 playing defense which basically no one does, is our best transition defender and his defensive game took a huge step forward this year, he is physical in his own end, skates better than svechnikov. He has a higher xGF than Svech which is very impressive considering he plays defense not wing. 

So basically I have a defender playing a harder position on worse team with barely less scoring all while having better xGF and slightly lower than Svech Corsi for %. 

[Refuting]

  On 7/10/2020 at 2:40 PM, LGR4GM said:

Well for starters, at the most basic level, he has 14 fewer points in 9 less games while playing defense on a easily worse team than Svechnikov. He is on the ice more, has more on ice responsibility, is 19 playing defense which basically no one does, is our best transition defender and his defensive game took a huge step forward this year, he is physical in his own end, skates better than svechnikov. He has a higher xGF than Svech which is very impressive considering he plays defense not wing. 

So basically I have a defender playing a harder position on worse team with barely less scoring all while having better xGF and slightly lower than Svech Corsi for %. 

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4 goals. Turnover machine. Mental errors 

[LGR4GM]

  On 7/10/2020 at 2:44 PM, Toilet_Mop said:

4 goals. Turnover machine. Mental errors 

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Fun fact, 

Svechnikov: 66 giveaways

Dahlin: 42

You are mad that a defenseman isn't producing more goals than a winger? 

Also fun fact, Svech's giveaway's go up from year 1 to 2

Dahlin even when accounting for games played goes down. 

[Refuting]

  On 7/10/2020 at 2:45 PM, LGR4GM said:

Fun fact, 

Svechnikov: 66 giveaways

Dahlin: 42

You are mad that a defenseman isn't producing more goals than a winger? 

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No, I'd rather have a power forward than a gimmicky offensive defenseman. His title is literally offensive defenseman. Where are the goals? 

[LTS]

  On 7/10/2020 at 2:47 PM, Toilet_Mop said:

No, I'd rather have a power forward than a gimmicky offensive defenseman. His title is literally offensive defenseman. Where are the goals? 

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So offense is only counted in goals? 

Now I'm ticked off.  All this time, every person who ever talks about hockey and offensive stats always tells me goals, assists, and total points and they've been feeding me garbage this whole time.  All you damn analytics people who kept going on and on about assists, secondary, primary... you know what? You are full of it.  The mop has spoken. It's all gimmicks.  It only matters if you score goals!  He has simplified your lives. Hell, simplified the lives of all the officials out there at every level of the game who struggle to remember two players who touched the puck before a goal was scored. It doesn't matter any more.  Praise be!

I guess I will sit back and start watching the players who only score goals. I will focus on their offensive possession skills. They should be easy to pick out. Those players taking the puck and skating end to end to score their amazing goals. You know, the only one's who drive offense.

 

[Refuting]

  On 7/11/2020 at 3:00 PM, LTS said:

So offense is only counted in goals? 

Now I'm ticked off.  All this time, every person who ever talks about hockey and offensive stats always tells me goals, assists, and total points and they've been feeding me garbage this whole time.  All you damn analytics people who kept going on and on about assists, secondary, primary... you know what? You are full of it.  The mop has spoken. It's all gimmicks.  It only matters if you score goals!  He has simplified your lives. Hell, simplified the lives of all the officials out there at every level of the game who struggle to remember two players who touched the puck before a goal was scored. It doesn't matter any more.  Praise be!

I guess I will sit back and start watching the players who only score goals. I will focus on their offensive possession skills. They should be easy to pick out. Those players taking the puck and skating end to end to score their amazing goals. You know, the only one's who drive offense.

 

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Lol @ sarcasm

He should have more goals though 

[dudacek]

  On 7/11/2020 at 4:32 PM, Toilet_Mop said:

Lol @ sarcasm

He should have more goals though 

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Where does goal-scoring rank on the list of skills you want from your defencemen?

[LTS]

  On 7/11/2020 at 4:32 PM, Toilet_Mop said:

Lol @ sarcasm

He should have more goals though 

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The entire Sabres team should have more goals.  The story of a player is not told solely in the stats they provide. You do have to account for the team they are on, the style of play the team adopts, etc.

 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

  On 7/12/2020 at 2:50 PM, LTS said:

The entire Sabres team should have more goals.  The story of a player is not told solely in the stats they provide. You do have to account for the team they are on, the style of play the team adopts, etc.

 

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Maybe it is.....what do you think of E. Karlsson or Brent Burns?

Karksson's first 2 yrs (ages 19/20) he scored 18g in 135gms

Brent Burns' first 2 yrs (ages 20/21) he scored 11g in 149gms

Dahlin's first 2 yrs (ages 18/19) he scored 13g in 139gms

If Dahlin becomes anything like either one, I'm sure most will be happy. There is a chance that he will be even better and that makes me ecstatic.

[LTS]

  On 7/12/2020 at 4:08 PM, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Maybe it is.....what do you think of E. Karlsson or Brent Burns?

Karksson's first 2 yrs (ages 19/20) he scored 18g in 135gms

Brent Burns' first 2 yrs (ages 20/21) he scored 11g in 149gms

Dahlin's first 2 yrs (ages 18/19) he scored 13g in 139gms

If Dahlin becomes anything like either one, I'm sure most will be happy. There is a chance that he will be even better and that makes me ecstatic.

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Sure, but I'd have to look at the teams they were playing on to see how it related to the overall offensive output.  I'm high on Dahlin. I'm just saying that goals scored, by a defenseman, on a team that hasn't scored goals for years, is probably not the best stat to look at for how good the player is..

Put a parachute on Usain Bolt and he's not going to win many races, despite still being fast.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

  On 7/13/2020 at 1:24 AM, LTS said:

Sure, but I'd have to look at the teams they were playing on to see how it related to the overall offensive output.  I'm high on Dahlin. I'm just saying that goals scored, by a defenseman, on a team that hasn't scored goals for years, is probably not the best stat to look at for how good the player is..

Put a parachute on Usain Bolt and he's not going to win many races, despite still being fast.

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Those teams couldn't have been any worse than ours.

[Andrew Amerk]

I’m guessing that in the context of this conversation, that defensive forwards are just as useless as offensive defensemen. 

[Thorner]

  On 7/10/2020 at 4:44 AM, Toilet_Mop said:

Should have picked Svechnikov

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It’s not absurd at all to think Svech ends up the better player.

But the certainty of this statement, at this point in time, is what gets me. Forwards develop quicker than D, we won’t get a clear idea for what Dahlin is going to amount to for years. 

What he’s done, at the age he’s done it...I haven’t soured at all on the initial development projection. If, if Dahlin reaches his ceiling he’ll be the more valuable asset. 

Both will be real good. The appeal of Dahlin is the endgame. A playoff team where we can shuffle Dahlin out there for 30 mins a night in key situations is what I find most appealing. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Thorny

[nfreeman]

  On 7/10/2020 at 2:22 PM, Toilet_Mop said:

I'm not explaining to you what finesse means. Look it up if you have to. If you can't tell why Dahlin is more finesse than anything, you're not trying. 

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This is obnoxious and not how we communicate here.

[Taro T]

  On 7/15/2020 at 9:56 PM, Thorny said:

It’s not absurd at all to think Svech ends up the better player.

But the certainty of this statement, at this point in time, is what gets me. Forwards develop quicker than D, we won’t get a clear idea for what Dahlin is going to amount to for years. 

What he’s done, at the age he’s done it...I haven’t soured at all on the initial development projection. If, if Dahlin reaches his ceiling he’ll be the more valuable asset. 

Both will be real good. The appeal of Dahlin is the endgame. A playoff team where we can shuffle Dahlin out there for 30 mins a night in key situations is what I find most appealing. 

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True.  But it would've been absurd to pick anyone 1st overall rather than Dahlin.  His floor heading into that draft was a 3 & his ceiling was Potvin/Robinson.  So, at worst, you get a guy that can play 22 minutes a night servicably & at best you get a game changer that can play close to 30 minutes a night.

(Knowing full well you agree with this.  Not trying to say you don't. Adding some support to your point.)

[bob_sauve28]

From the Buffalo News article yesterday 

 

During the recent interview, Dahlin also revealed he now weighs approximately 205 pounds – the Sabres had him listed at 193 pounds this season – and works out five days a week in Frolunda, the city in which he starred before he was drafted first overall in 2018.

 

Before the mass firings in the Sabres’ hockey operations, former General Manager Jason Botterill told reporters in May that adding strength will allow Dahlin to play more minutes. Dahlin averaged 19 minutes, 18 seconds per game this season – a decrease of almost two minutes from his rookie year.

[dudacek]

  On 8/8/2020 at 6:09 PM, bob_sauve28 said:

From the Buffalo News article yesterday 

 

During the recent interview, Dahlin also revealed he now weighs approximately 205 pounds – the Sabres had him listed at 193 pounds this season – and works out five days a week in Frolunda, the city in which he starred before he was drafted first overall in 2018.

 

Before the mass firings in the Sabres’ hockey operations, former General Manager Jason Botterill told reporters in May that adding strength will allow Dahlin to play more minutes. Dahlin averaged 19 minutes, 18 seconds per game this season – a decrease of almost two minutes from his rookie year.

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I wonder if he has a relationship with Frolunda’s Lucas Raymond, a possible Sabres first rounder.

[inkman]

  On 8/8/2020 at 6:16 PM, dudacek said:

I wonder if he has a relationship with Frolunda’s Lucas Raymond, a possible Sabres first rounder.

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I hear the Frolunda cheese is to die for 

[sabremike]

Also remember that Kreuger made the baffling decision to have Dahlin not go forward on rushes/attacks, essentially neutralizing one of his biggest strengths which is why his production fell this past season.

[Curt]

  On 8/8/2020 at 11:41 PM, sabremike said:

Also remember that Kreuger made the baffling decision to have Dahlin not go forward on rushes/attacks, essentially neutralizing one of his biggest strengths which is why his production fell this past season.

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His production did not fall this past season.  It increased, despite the other stuff you said.

[dudacek]

  On 8/8/2020 at 11:41 PM, sabremike said:

Also remember that Kreuger made the baffling decision to have Dahlin not go forward on rushes/attacks, essentially neutralizing one of his biggest strengths which is why his production fell this past season.

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His production did not fall. Not even close. He got almost as many points in 23 fewer games.

He went from .54 P/g (33rd in the league) to .68 (15th).

Where do these made-up narratives come from?

[sabremike]

  On 8/9/2020 at 1:10 AM, dudacek said:

His production did not fall. Not even close. He got almost as many points in 23 fewer games.

He went from .54 P/g (33rd in the league) to .68 (15th).

Where do these made-up narratives come from?

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So if he scored 10 extra points (which given that the team had fallen completely off a cliff is anything but a given) he would've increased his total from last year by 6 points. That doesn't fail to change the fact that failing to utilize one of his biggest strengths was completely stupid. And here is a narrative that is NOT made up: Despite Jack having one of the greatest seasons in team history (that would've been a serious Hart candidate had he played for an actual NHL quality team) the team failed to qualify for a 24 team playoff, and had the season not halted there was an excellent chance of a bottom 5 finish (which would've been even more impressive given the unusually high number of simply flat out awful teams this past season).

[Gabrielor]

  On 8/9/2020 at 1:10 AM, dudacek said:

His production did not fall. Not even close. He got almost as many points in 23 fewer games.

He went from .54 P/g (33rd in the league) to .68 (15th).

Where do these made-up narratives come from?

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Gotta be people looking exclusively at goals.

[Curt]

  On 8/9/2020 at 1:24 AM, sabremike said:

So if he scored 10 extra points (which given that the team had fallen completely off a cliff is anything but a given) he would've increased his total from last year by 6 points. That doesn't fail to change the fact that failing to utilize one of his biggest strengths was completely stupid. And here is a narrative that is NOT made up: Despite Jack having one of the greatest seasons in team history (that would've been a serious Hart candidate had he played for an actual NHL quality team) the team failed to qualify for a 24 team playoff, and had the season not halted there was an excellent chance of a bottom 5 finish (which would've been even more impressive given the unusually high number of simply flat out awful teams this past season).

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The increase in scoring rate would equate to 11-12 points over a full season.  It’s a significant increase, not a decrease as you stated it to be.  You had your supporting facts wrong and that really undercut your argument, it’s ok to just eat the crow on that, but your criticism of Krueger‘a handling of Dahlin is reasonable.  The counterpoint would be that it may have been in the best interest of Dahlin’s long term development to spend that time tightening up his defensive game with the end result of him becoming a more complete and better player.

I don’t think any of the bolded stuff is very relevant to the discussion.