Pegula Sports Entertainment, behind the scenes

[Thorner]

22 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

That's your best post to date! I had a point and didn't articulate it well. It's late. It kind of refers to something I've been trying to put my finger on for the longest time. How the Pegulas can't really own the Buffalo Sabres.

They are honestly perceived more like elected officials, without the election, of course. 

[Thorner]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

Craig Patrick was an advisor, Ken Sawyer was an advisor, the heirarchy around Pat Lafontaine was as uncertain as his qualifications, Russ Brandon was a football guy and apparently a sleaze and Kim Pegula is a sports business neophyte without an executive resume.

I have never seen the need for a hockey czar over a capable GM, but there is a need for someone to not only oversee,  but lead the operation of the business. Or, in this case a poorly structured, confusingly overlapping conglomerate of businesses.

It's interesting. There is so much riveting dissection of what's "wrong" here. Much of it seems to have the ring of truth. But sometimes I remember like, if Botterill doesn't trade ROR, aren't we a playoff team? 

It's one move? In spite of everything maybe. 

So maybe we need that czar? Or just a capable, repsected, GM? How much of the perception of things changes simply by winning? Is it not realistic we are perhaps even 1 or 2 well-chosen moves from making that happen? I guess it still comes back to, "are they capable of finding that person". 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Thorny

[Theana745]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

You don't go to many games do you?

And doesn't begin to address the FACT that attendance was wildly overstated during the criminals' tenure.

You don't know how ironic this statement was. Even if we take your word, amount of tickets purchased is a much better metric of interest and pashion. Lots of reasons why a fan might mot attend. Maybe they had an exam, got into an accident etc.

50 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

I’m not sure if this was sarcastic or not. Let’s assume on its face, this was a sincere comment by you...

I’m a STH and I can tell you from experience of over 16 years, and over 250 games attended ... the attendance they announce at the game is NOT reflected by the butts in the seats. It’s sold tickets (15,500 STH’er seats which are already fully paid for by the time the first game of the season comes), plus the mini pack holders, plus seats sold beyond that. So I’ve never heard the attendance below 16,700 or so. And yet, some badly attended games I’ve witnessed are around 10,000 - 12,000.

arena holds just over 19,000

See my other comment. Ticket purchasd is a much better metric of interest. Lots of reasons why one might not go to a game after buying a ticket. Family events, car accidents etc. 

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, Theana745 said:

You don't know how ironic this statement was. Even if we take your word, amount of tickets purchased is a much better metric of interest and pashion. Lots of reasons why a fan might mot attend. Maybe they had an exam, got into an accident etc.

See my other comment. Ticket purchasd is a much better metric of interest. Lots of reasons why one might not go to a game after buying a ticket. Family events, car accidents etc. 

Alanis Morrisette was your English teacher?  Cool beans.

And again, the criminals didn't announce actual attendance, nor even paid attendance.  They announced distributed tickets.  Take out unpaid tickets distributed and attendance goes down.

[Indabuff]

34 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Alanis Morrisette was your English teacher?  Cool beans.

And again, the criminals didn't announce actual attendance, nor even paid attendance.  They announced distributed tickets.  Take out unpaid tickets distributed and attendance goes down.

Think it was like 10,000 spoons...

[Theana745]

56 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Alanis Morrisette was your English teacher?  Cool beans.

And again, the criminals didn't announce actual attendance, nor even paid attendance.  They announced distributed tickets.  Take out unpaid tickets distributed and attendance goes down.

It's so sad to see someone call the organization criminal. Look, I think we're just going to have to agree to diasgree. I think tensions are hot over the percieved economic inequality in the country. Let's all take some time to cool down

[#freejame]

3 hours ago, Theana745 said:

Not correct. 00-01, 01-02 the team had relatively strong numbers, with close to sellout crowds. They dipped for a few seasons (02, 03) season during the early 2000s. Almost always in the top 20 for attendance. Amazing what a little research does

http://proxy.espn.com/nhl/attendance?year=2001

And we sell out every game now...what’s your point? I regularly went to games under 10,000 in attendance and I’m sure everyone here did too. 

[#freejame]

I can distinctly remember thinking during the 05-06 season how much better it was when nobody was in attendance because I could go up to the glass and get all the pucks I wanted. Take your numbers and hold them to heart but I was there and I know with certainly very few others were. I spent 12+ years being fortunate enough to go to close to twenty games a season. Nobody went to games pre-lockout. The franchise was in flux and people legitimately thought the team was gone. We are so far past that. A large chunk of this board weren’t even fans then. That’s the era I grew up in. Team support does not matter to attracting talent. Our best team in history followed the worst period in Sabres hockey. This isn’t even debatable from a butts in the stand, tv viewership, record, etc standpoint.  People didn’t give two shits in buffalo in 2003-2004. The entire city was a bandwagon come 2005-2006. This is frustrating even rehashing. These are long dormant torments you are rehashing while admitting you were not here at the time. Post Hasek pre-2005 was the darkest timeline and this does not even compare. People are at least somewhat interested now. There was maybe 50,000 folks who cared what happened to the Sabres between 2001-2004. 

[Taro T]

44 minutes ago, Theana745 said:

It's so sad to see someone call the organization criminal. Look, I think we're just going to have to agree to diasgree. I think tensions are hot over the percieved economic inequality in the country. Let's all take some time to cool down

Nobody's calling the organization criminal.

Learn a little history.

[Hank]

45 minutes ago, Theana745 said:

It's so sad to see someone call the organization criminal. Look, I think we're just going to have to agree to diasgree. I think tensions are hot over the percieved economic inequality in the country. Let's all take some time to cool down

I think he was referring to previous owners who were, in fact, convicted criminals. 

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, Theana745 said:

You don't know how ironic this statement was. Even if we take your word, amount of tickets purchased is a much better metric of interest and pashion. Lots of reasons why a fan might mot attend. Maybe they had an exam, got into an accident etc.

See my other comment. Ticket purchasd is a much better metric of interest. Lots of reasons why one might not go to a game after buying a ticket. Family events, car accidents etc. 

 

1 hour ago, Theana745 said:

It's so sad to see someone call the organization criminal. Look, I think we're just going to have to agree to diasgree. I think tensions are hot over the percieved economic inequality in the country. Let's all take some time to cool down

It’s unusual to see a new poster with this much certitude combined with this poor of a grasp of the facts.  

[SwampD]

22 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

 

It’s unusual to see a new poster with this much certitude combined with this poor of a grasp of the facts.  

That's just funny.

[Cascade Youth]

8 hours ago, nfreeman said:

 

It’s unusual to see a new poster with this much certitude combined with this poor of a grasp of the facts.  

Makes you think they might be a Pegula, fits the type!

[inkman]

29 minutes ago, Cascade Youth said:

Makes you think they might be a Pegula, fits the type!

The thought had crossed my mind, or at least someone with very close ties. 

[nucci]

10 hours ago, Theana745 said:

It's so sad to see someone call the organization criminal. Look, I think we're just going to have to agree to diasgree. I think tensions are hot over the percieved economic inequality in the country. Let's all take some time to cool down

but the Rigas' are criminals. They went to prison

[LGR4GM]

17 hours ago, Theana745 said:

Again, I said this in the other post, but attracting talent player wise and management wise comes down to two things. Robustness of the city and fan culture. Better fan culture = better team = better investments in the city. It sounds like you're fine with no hockey in Buffalo. Fine, but imagine all the dreams you'll crush from all the kids who really believe in our club. Even though the record might not be great, Mr. Pegulla has utilized the team to help a wide variety of charities and pump money into the Buffalo economy. In a city like Buffalo, A team is much more than it's record. It provides jobs and stability to many. There are some things that are too big to fail.

I am not crushing anything. You don't seem to understand I am not responsible or required to spend my hard earned cash on a product that is mediocre at best. The product should be required to get better. You gotta spend money to make money and sadly the Sabres have spent money poorly.

Considering "Mr. Pegula" can't move the team anyways according to the contract he signed with Mr Golisano I could light my money on fire in front of the arena and they still can't move the team. 

To the too big to fail thing... now you are saying I am required to spend money at PSE places. We have left the hockey team behind and moved onto supporting all they have done regardless of if I like it. The NHL won't move the team. The Pegulas legally can't according to their sales contract. So the only logical conclusion is you are now expanding this argument to all of the PSE enterprises. Do I have that correct? If so that means I should be eating and drinking at 716. I almost never go there. Why? Is it because I hate the pegulas and their richness? No it is because the food is mediocre, the beer is cheaper most other places, and if I wanted to watch a game there it is always packed. If they fixed the food, I might bet tempted to go more often.

Edited April 22, 2020 by LGR4GM

[LGR4GM]

13 hours ago, Theana745 said:

And you should know that team success comes from BOTH a bottom up/top down approach. I'm just trying to find ways to bring people together so the whole organization is on the same page

That's because the paid ticket number is so similar to actual attendence.

We are not part of the organization. If we were, Brock Boeser would be a Sabre. ROR would be a Sabre. Nick Roberston would be a Sabre. Sergachev would be a Sabre. Drury and Briere would have remained Sabres. Pomminstein would have been given a contract this year. Frolic would never have been acquired. Risto would still be here but that's cuz we disagree. Bottom line is I am not part of PSE. I am also not part of my favorite bar. If that bar starts serving crappy food and the drink prices go up, I will go to other places. 

PSE isn't on the same page and that is on them. It isn't on me. I am on this ***** forum hours every week discussing ways to improve this team. Maybe if PSE put a product out that was some vanilla arena experience only geared towards 8-12 year olds while simultaneously putting out one of the most boring teams with the exception of Eichel, I would want to spend money and be more supportive in that way. Right now, I refuse because the only thing that seems to wake these massive companies up to change is either scandal or a sudden drop in profits. 

[LGR4GM]

13 hours ago, Theana745 said:

Didn't come to Buffalo till after. But have read up on things when I came here.

I was here in those years. I remember standing outside the arena because I couldn't afford a ticket and literally hearing the crowd when a goal was scored. This fanbase is begging for a good product, they would support it at massive levels but they sure as hell don't deserve this bs that because we aren't buying enough and being positive enough the team is bad. The team is bad because for a decade we have drafted poorly. We continued that trend last year when we ignored offensive talent to take lesser defensive talent because they came from a "preferred" league. I have said it 100 times but once more. The Buffalo Sabres will continue to be bad as long as they continue to draft poorly. 

[LGR4GM]

11 hours ago, Theana745 said:

It's so sad to see someone call the organization criminal. Look, I think we're just going to have to agree to diasgree. I think tensions are hot over the percieved economic inequality in the country. Let's all take some time to cool down

Who cares about economic inequality in this thread? No one. This is about you claiming that we have to support the team with our money (specifically) regardless of what they do because we somehow owe that. That is *****. No one is talking about income inequality. The Pegulas are rich, good for them. I am not required to keep them rich if the product they sell me is bad and they continue to do dumb things to keep it bad (see the Frolic trade, Johnson draft, ROR trade, not signing Pommers, probably not signing Larsson, failure to use data in the decision making process, piss poor draft record). 

Edited April 22, 2020 by LGR4GM

[SDS]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Who cares about economic inequality in this thread? No one. This is about you claiming that we have to support the team with our money (specifically) regardless of what they do because we somehow owe that. That is *****. No one is talking about income inequality. The Pegulas are rich, good for them. I am not required to keep them rich if the product they sell me is bad and they continue to do dumb things to keep it bad (see the Frolic trade, Johnson draft, ROR trade, not signing Pommers, probably not signing Larsson, failure to use data in the decision making process, piss poor draft record). 

I wasn't in this thread, but I care about it.

I will also say the term "perceived economic inequality" is one of the worst garbage phrases uttered. Yes, it's all perception. ?

[Stoner]

11 hours ago, nfreeman said:

 

It’s unusual to see a new poster with this much certitude combined with this poor of a grasp of the facts.  

In other words, he or she will fit right in.

[Taro T]

7 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

In other words, he or she will fit right in.

Well, we've kept you around all these years. ?

[Stoner]

58 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Well, we've kept you around all these years. ?

I know I'm full of BS, so there's little certitude. Look into it. I have some literature if you're interested.

[Kruppstahl]

I am new to this story and can only read what others post in this thread and the one over at TBD.  

I have been saying for a LONG time that when an organization is as bad as the Sabres, for this long, the ONLY place to look is at the top.  And this emerging story proves that.

I love how Kim Pegula is running the ship, with basically no expertise or education to support that....online.....from her 10,000 sq.ft. house in Boca.   Yeah, that's going to work out really well.

I come away thinking that, as a Sabres fan, the best we can hope for is the Pegulas to realize they much consolidation in order to survive and operate on a higher level, and that means selling the Sabres.

Yes, sell the Sabres.  No way will a guy like Pegula sell the Bills instead; it's a much better money maker and owning an NFL team is the feather in his cap that he is looking for, not the Sabres.  Even if he is probably a bigger hockey fan than a football fan.

When the Pegula ownership started, we had the famous "I'll drill a well if I want money" quote and the "sole purpose for our existence is to win the Stanley Cup."

Yeah, well that franchise doesn't exist currently.  It's poorly run by amateurs making amateurish mistakes, and they are penny pinching just as past ownership has always done.

It's really quite bad and I don't see it improving any time soon.

I'm really curious to see how this plays out over, say, a 3 to 5 year period.

I can see them selling the team.  I really can.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Kruppstahl

[LTS]

21 hours ago, Theana745 said:

Everyone is titled to his or her opinion. Even though this take might not be reality per say, many individuals in the NHL and other leagues still believe in it. There's been so many stories of players in the league not wanting to come to Buffalo, and that was before Mr. Pegulla came around. It came town to two things. City and fan culture. Ultimately, it's a double edged soward. If you don't provide the team with ticket sales, it will never improve and things will only get worse. Don't you want to give the team a chance at improving?  Let me tell you, there's so many kids out there that would be crushed if their favorite hockey team was no longer around. Being in the league is really an honor, and the best fan bases treat it as such.

Yes, but you stated a quite specific instance about neurosurgeons.  I happen to have one who lives on my street and I spent 11 years in health care consistently meeting with administrations and researchers.  I refuted it. Not opinion, reality.

Players don't come to Buffalo because the team has been bad, the ownership is clearly not winning people over, and frankly has demonstrated an actual lack of competence in running an organization. Why would any player or executive want to come here and work for this family?  It's not about the city, it's about the owners. Should we not expect that all the people who were let go don't speak about the inability of this family to lead an organization?

I know I've asked about jobs in other companies only to be told about the culture there and then reconsidered my interest immediately.  It wasn't based on the city. 

You know how many kids grow up to play hockey that have never had an NHL team in their city?  They weren't crushed.  People will be upset if the team leaves, but that will quickly be replaced.  Quebec City is still standing and last I checked, the kids there still play hockey.

If you want some blind fan loyalty to a franchise then don't tell me its a business.  Instead, tell me its a social club, where we can $2 brews and some wings and watch a crappy hockey team get their arses kicked year in and year out.  It's amazing how little I'd care about the product on the ice if it didn't cost so much money just to get in the building.

But that's the not case, fans get to pay an large sum of money to go through metal detectors, have the option to buy seriously overpriced beverages and crappy food and then sit in seats so uncomfortable and jammed in that the Delta CEO uses them as a reference of how far the airlines can cut back.  What's left?  Oh yeah, a terrible arena experience, and to top it off... the whole reason people showed up?  See some really crappy hockey.

Sounds like a I've got it all wrong though.  I should be happy to have that.  Hell it's an HONOR to have all that.

Nope.. not how it works.