Pegula Sports Entertainment, behind the scenes

[Stoner]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

"On a hunch" appears to animate most of your posts on this topic.

In addition to -- proudly, it appears -- assuming that they aren't charitable based on zero facts, what boxes are you checking off based on hunches?  Drugs?  Racism?  Brothels?  Fraud?  Which family members do your hunches tell you are indulging in these vices?  How certain are you?

You've mentioned a few times that you don't subscribe to the Athletic.  Were you able to read the full story, or is your description of it as "brilliant" and "reveals a lot" also based on a hunch?

As for superyacht and family lifestyle -- are they not allowed to own a fancy yacht?  Are they not allowed to have/enjoy their lifestyle?

They're allowed to have a new superyacht. I'm allowed to say that it is morally, socially, ethically, economically, environmentally, and several other -llies I can't think of, unconscionable.

Don't you worry about how I read the article for free.

[Tondas]

30 years as a Manager, Director, VP, COO and CEO  taught me this:  Having a lot of money DOES NOT make you a good executive, but a good executive can make you a lot of money.   And create a winning organization.  Terry and Kim, please learn this quickly!!

[SwampD]

16 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

They're allowed to have a new superyacht. I'm allowed to say that it is morally, socially, ethically, economically, environmentally, and several other -llies I can't think of, unconscionable.

Don't you worry about how I read the article for free.

If I ever had that much money, I'd have a yacht. Without a second thought.

I wouldn't care what you thought of me for having it.

 

... but you would be invited on it to watch a Sabres playoff game on the 105" screen while drinking Labatt Blue mimosas.

[inkman]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

The problem with that reputation is that, if it's true, you end up with employees who live in fear, which makes them unwilling to be creative, speak up when they think something is wrong, or take risks. You end up with business culture that rewards doing what you're told, keeping your head down, and hoping your paycheck keeps coming until you can find a way out. You hemorrhage your best employees that way. The good ones don't stay in places like that. The bad ones do... and then you end up hiring your family members because they're the only ones who you can guilt into showing up..

Kinda sounds like GM in the 80s...

? ☹️

[Theana745]

2 hours ago, LTS said:

This is an absolutely horrible take.  The best neurosurgeon will go wherever a healthcare system will promise them the most money and almost assuredly the most leeway to run various levels of medical studies with insane resources and as little oversight as possible.

Patients will travel between cities to find that single neurosurgeon. 

The success of the organization is dependent upon those who run it, not the people who live in the same area code it's run in.  The fans can take down a successful organization by still continuing to not care about it.  Fans aren't responsible for a failing organization, it takes care of itself.  No business is run on the premise of give me money first and I will give you a quality product second.  It doesn't work that way, period.  Even if it happens to work for a brief period of time, it's not sustainable. 

Your take is myopic and puts a value on sports that is perceived but not real.  Plenty of cities in this country thrive without a sports team in them. The initial impact might be significant, but people move on and these days they usually do so within weeks.

I suppose everyone is different, but eventually each person wakes up and realizes that handing hard earned money to an entity that has no interest in improving your quality of life is not justifiable. I mean, why improve the product or invest if people keep blindly handing over money?

Everyone is titled to his or her opinion. Even though this take might not be reality per say, many individuals in the NHL and other leagues still believe in it. There's been so many stories of players in the league not wanting to come to Buffalo, and that was before Mr. Pegulla came around. It came town to two things. City and fan culture. Ultimately, it's a double edged soward. If you don't provide the team with ticket sales, it will never improve and things will only get worse. Don't you want to give the team a chance at improving?  Let me tell you, there's so many kids out there that would be crushed if their favorite hockey team was no longer around. Being in the league is really an honor, and the best fan bases treat it as such.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Theana745

[Pimlach]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

Isn’t that pretty much what is happening?

For all the work Tim put into that article, there is nothing particularly damning about what the Pegulas have done, in terms of unfair or unethical practices. The gist of their sins is they’ve created a workplace environment where people (most of whom are gone) aren’t or weren’t buying in and don’t or didn’t like coming to work: bad culture is our buzzword. Kim admitted as much in her response, just like she did when Brandon and Gilbert were canned and Terry did when Murray was shown the door. 

Whether the culture is the result or the father of the bad product is moot; one feeds the other, the market feels it, people bitch and complain and the circle continues.

What we are watching is their attempts at repairing the culture being perceived as more symptom than cure, which is pretty typical in times of change. I don’t blame people for not trusting the Pegula’s efforts, and I am not surprised that they are making mistakes in the process. I would prefer they brought in a proven sports executive to clean and streamline the organization because it would lessen the painful hunt and peck nature of the process. But what they are doing now - attempting to turn their hobby into a legitimate business -has to be done, whatever the process.

Because the status quo has not worked and they aren’t going to turn things over to a philanthropic board consisting of me, @LGR4GM and @PASabreFan (moderated by @nfreeman and audited by @SwampD) and our whiz kid GM @Randall Flagg any time soon.

Hey, what about me?  I have 4 Cups and a Fedora.   

[Theana745]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Guess I am out then. The Sabres are not entertaining. They have not been in many years. I don't see signs from the ownership they understand how to fix that. Therefore I will spend my money on other things. So idk what ends you want to justify but at the end of the day, I am not spending money on this team until they get their ***** straightened out. If that results in the team leaving, so be it. That isn't on me. That is on the owners for creating something that is not entertaining or worth my time. It is not on me to blindly be loyal regardless of what product they are selling. 

The ends justify the means. I suppose then is about what end we are justifying. The Pegulas bad decision making or my decision to not spend money on something that ceased to be of value. 

Again, I said this in the other post, but attracting talent player wise and management wise comes down to two things. Robustness of the city and fan culture. Better fan culture = better team = better investments in the city. It sounds like you're fine with no hockey in Buffalo. Fine, but imagine all the dreams you'll crush from all the kids who really believe in our club. Even though the record might not be great, Mr. Pegulla has utilized the team to help a wide variety of charities and pump money into the Buffalo economy. In a city like Buffalo, A team is much more than it's record. It provides jobs and stability to many. There are some things that are too big to fail.

[Randall Flagg]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Wow, those are some pretty impressive bars to have to hurdle. Give them time. I can already, on a hunch, check off a few of those boxes. Mayor Black anyone? That one brilliant Athletic story reveals a lot about these people. What part of superyacht and family lifestyle don't you understand?

Your response to that yacht comment would make sense if the comment was a Pegula going all "woe is me" about suspending construction of the yacht, but the comment was merely graham (unnecessarily, honestly) reporting the suspension of construction, seemingly to draw reactions like yours.

Like I don't care about their yacht, but I'm genuinely unbothered that it exists and not glad that they had to suspend its construction, and not mad that they are potentially upset about this (again, they have said nothing of the yacht themselves from what I've seen) to me it's a weird thing to get hung up on.

 

[dudacek]

58 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Hey, what about me?  I have 4 Cups and a Fedora.   

Sorry Georgie, you had your shot.

[#freejame]

1 hour ago, Theana745 said:

Everyone is titled to his or her opinion. Even though this take might not be reality per say, many individuals in the NHL and other leagues still believe in it. There's been so many stories of players in the league not wanting to come to Buffalo, and that was before Mr. Pegulla came around. It came town to two things. City and fan culture. Ultimately, it's a double edged soward. If you don't provide the team with ticket sales, it will never improve and things will only get worse. Don't you want to give the team a chance at improving?  Let me tell you, there's so many kids out there that would be crushed if their favorite hockey team was no longer around. Being in the league is really an honor, and the best fan bases treat it as such.

There’s so few kids who are actually fans of this team now. It was very sad watching my kid brother and his friends grow up not caring about the Sabres. Do kids in Buffalo really care that much or are they all Caps, Hawks, Leafs, and Penguin fans?

1 hour ago, Theana745 said:

Again, I said this in the other post, but attracting talent player wise and management wise comes down to two things. Robustness of the city and fan culture. Better fan culture = better team = better investments in the city. It sounds like you're fine with no hockey in Buffalo. Fine, but imagine all the dreams you'll crush from all the kids who really believe in our club. Even though the record might not be great, Mr. Pegulla has utilized the team to help a wide variety of charities and pump money into the Buffalo economy. In a city like Buffalo, A team is much more than it's record. It provides jobs and stability to many. There are some things that are too big to fail.

The prelockout era was arguably the darkest time in franchise history. Attendance was less than I’ve ever seen it and the entire organization was in shambles. I don’t believe fan culture has anything to do with it. Win games and the fans will come. 

[Stoner]

2 hours ago, SwampD said:

If I ever had that much money, I'd have a yacht. Without a second thought.

I wouldn't care what you thought of me for having it.

 

... but you would be invited on it to watch a Sabres playoff game on the 105" screen while drinking Labatt Blue mimosas.

But not a superyacht. I know you're better than that.

[Weave]

1 hour ago, Theana745 said:

Everyone is titled to his or her opinion. Even though this take might not be reality per say, many individuals in the NHL and other leagues still believe in it. There's been so many stories of players in the league not wanting to come to Buffalo, and that was before Mr. Pegulla came around. It came town to two things. City and fan culture. Ultimately, it's a double edged soward. If you don't provide the team with ticket sales, it will never improve and things will only get worse. Don't you want to give the team a chance at improving?  Let me tell you, there's so many kids out there that would be crushed if their favorite hockey team was no longer around. Being in the league is really an honor, and the best fan bases treat it as such.

It is interesting how consistently you place blame on the fans.  The fans are there and willing to support.  They have not been provided anything worth supporting.  You have it ass backwards.

And the best fan bases absolutely stay home when the team sucks for long periods.  Every team has an amazing fanbase when they are winning.  Every team has a library for an arena when they aren't.

Except Toronto.  They are too stupid to know the difference.

[Theana745]

39 minutes ago, #freejame said:

There’s so few kids who are actually fans of this team now. It was very sad watching my kid brother and his friends grow up not caring about the Sabres. Do kids in Buffalo really care that much or are they all Caps, Hawks, Leafs, and Penguin fans?

The prelockout era was arguably the darkest time in franchise history. Attendance was less than I’ve ever seen it and the entire organization was in shambles. I don’t believe fan culture has anything to do with it. Win games and the fans will come. 

Not correct. 00-01, 01-02 the team had relatively strong numbers, with close to sellout crowds. They dipped for a few seasons (02, 03) season during the early 2000s. Almost always in the top 20 for attendance. Amazing what a little research does

http://proxy.espn.com/nhl/attendance?year=2001

Edited April 21, 2020 by Theana745

[Theana745]

13 minutes ago, Weave said:

It is interesting how consistently you place blame on the fans.  The fans are there and willing to support.  They have not been provided anything worth supporting.  You have it ass backwards.

And the best fan bases absolutely stay home when the team sucks for long periods.  Every team has an amazing fanbase when they are winning.  Every team has a library for an arena when they aren't.

Except Toronto.  They are too stupid to know the difference.

I just have never seen someone say something positive about the players/management/staff here in a long time, and I think that's what prevents people from wanting to come here. Always doom and gloom. I think people here need to have a positive outlook 

[Jerry Jabber]

The Sabres were the first sports team the Pegula’s bought, so they were brand new to owning and operating a sports franchise and it showed. The LaFontaine hire backfired in many ways, between LaFontaine quitting abruptly and Pat’s choice of GM [Tim Murray]. Murray gave away all the assets the Sabres were stockpiling during “the tank” as he tried to accelerate the Sabres rebuild, which left the Sabres void of talent and depth. The players that Murray overpaid for were traded away by the new Sabres GM [Botterill], so in actuality, all those years of tanking only got the Sabres three good players: Eichel, Reinhart and Dahlin. So after being at the bottom of the league for so long, I’m sure it started to impact a lot of people in the organization, but I don’t think overall the Pegula’s are bad owners, just inexperienced. With the Bills, the Pegula’s have had many of talks with Bill Polian, so Bill was able to provide a lot of mentoring to Terry and Kim. With the Sabres, they’ve had to learn as they went along. 

[Weave]

9 minutes ago, Theana745 said:

I just have never seen someone say something positive about the players/management/staff here in a long time, and I think that's what prevents people from wanting to come here. Always doom and gloom. I think people here need to have a positive outlook 

Players want to come to winners.  The amount of time it's been since you've heard positive things is equal to the amount of time this team has been bad.  How soon you've forgotten the hysteria around here in '05-06.  The problem is, the stupid moves the team made started showing up right around '07. 

[Jerry Jabber]

13 minutes ago, Weave said:

Players want to come to winners.  The amount of time it's been since you've heard positive things is equal to the amount of time this team has been bad.  How soon you've forgotten the hysteria around here in '05-06.  The problem is, the stupid moves the team made started showing up right around '07. 

Agreed! Not resigning the teams top Centers was the biggest boneheaded move. Next was resigning Vanek, instead of getting multiple first round picks from Edmonton. 

[Theana745]

56 minutes ago, Weave said:

Players want to come to winners.  The amount of time it's been since you've heard positive things is equal to the amount of time this team has been bad.  How soon you've forgotten the hysteria around here in '05-06.  The problem is, the stupid moves the team made started showing up right around '07. 

Didn't come to Buffalo till after. But have read up on things when I came here.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Theana745

[Weave]

3 minutes ago, Theana745 said:

Didn't come to Buffalo till after. But have read up on things when I came here.

Then you have no idea how well this community supports an entertaining team.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Theana745 said:

Not correct. 00-01, 01-02 the team had relatively strong numbers, with close to sellout crowds. They dipped for a few seasons (02, 03) season during the early 2000s. Almost always in the top 20 for attendance. Amazing what a little research does

http://proxy.espn.com/nhl/attendance?year=2001

The Rigas era Sabres gave out a ####-ton of free tix.  They gave STHers 2-4 extra pairs of seats throughout the season.  No idea how many extra free tix went out to box holders & sponsors, but they got the tix too.  That practice ceased under the NHL stewardship and Golisano did not revive it.

The NHL teams announced DISTRIBUTED tickets prior to THE lockout, NOT PAID tickets, and absolutely not ACTUAL attendance.

[Theana745]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

Then you have no idea how well this community supports an entertaining team.

And you should know that team success comes from BOTH a bottom up/top down approach. I'm just trying to find ways to bring people together so the whole organization is on the same page

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

The Rigas era Sabres gave out a ####-ton of free tix.  They gave STHers 2-4 extra pairs of seats throughout the season.  No idea how many extra free tix went out to box holders & sponsors, but they got the tix too.  That practice ceased under the NHL stewardship and Golisano did not revive it.

The NHL teams announced DISTRIBUTED tickets prior to THE lockout, NOT PAID tickets, and absolutely not ACTUAL attendance.

That's because the paid ticket number is so similar to actual attendence.

[Weave]

2 minutes ago, Theana745 said:

And you should know that team success comes from BOTH a bottom up/top down approach. I'm just trying to find ways to bring people together so the whole organization is on the same page.

LOL  I'll give you points for consistency, even if it is misguided.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Theana745 said:

And you should know that team success comes from BOTH a bottom up/top down approach. I'm just trying to find ways to bring people together so the whole organization is on the same page

That's because the paid ticket number is so similar to actual attendence.

You don't go to many games do you?

And doesn't begin to address the FACT that attendance was wildly overstated during the criminals' tenure.

[Thorner]

22 hours ago, Neo said:

They got the three point slide correct.

They got a whole lotta other stuff wrong.

There’s nothing unusual about the mission.   There is something unusual about the lack of commitment from the generals and the foot soldiers.  There’s also something unusual if the three point slide is “news” to anyone.

These families succeed when the foot soldiers want to deliver the mission.  They fail when those same soldiers are surprised when they hear it.

And now, I will speculate about things I do not know.   I will speculate from experience, which all by itself is weak sauce out of the bottle.   I am not fair to the Pegulas without this disclosure.

The Pegulas appear over their heads with a conglomerate of businesses new to them.  They don’t have the one and two generations of leadership that builds loyalty, or equity in tough times, among the troops.  Some of their moves won’t get them that loyalty.  They don’t need loyalty, of course.   They can just be business excellent, hire and fire, and get results from whomever they bring in.   Possible.  Difficult.  The Knox family’s employees loved them.  Frankly, they didn’t run the most compelling business model.  They were stewards of a community asset.  Simpler times, simpler business model.   The Pegulas are closer to the Jacobs in their reach.  DNC is one, sharp, steely business machine.  Everyone knows the standards.  It’s also three generations (nearly four), old.  It doesn’t suffer fools, but it’s experienced enough to recognize fools before putting them into positions where they’ll fail.  The Pegulas lack Knox Family love and loyalty and Jacobs family acumen.

This is quick fortune, expanded beyond its expertise, without long time loyal employees that serve wealth creators and the everyday slides one, two and three.

Edit to add ... illiquidity is real and it’s freakin’ a lot of people out.   Entertainment, food, beverage and ENERGY?   oh, boy ...

That's a truly cutting read.

Now, do an equally awesome post about how things get fixed, please. 

Please?

[Zamboni]

9 minutes ago, Theana745 said:

 

That's because the paid ticket number is so similar to actual attendence.

I’m not sure if this was sarcastic or not. Let’s assume on its face, this was a sincere comment by you...

I’m a STH and I can tell you from experience of over 16 years, and over 250 games attended ... the attendance they announce at the game is NOT reflected by the butts in the seats. It’s sold tickets (15,500 STH’er seats which are already fully paid for by the time the first game of the season comes), plus the mini pack holders, plus seats sold beyond that. So I’ve never heard the attendance below 16,700 or so. And yet, some badly attended games I’ve witnessed are around 10,000 - 12,000.

arena holds just over 19,000