Pegula Sports Entertainment, behind the scenes

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

Yes. Vote with your feet. Which reminds me...

Isn’t that pretty much what is happening?

For all the work Tim put into that article, there is nothing particularly damning about what the Pegulas have done, in terms of unfair or unethical practices. The gist of their sins is they’ve created a workplace environment where people (most of whom are gone) aren’t or weren’t buying in and don’t or didn’t like coming to work: bad culture is our buzzword. Kim admitted as much in her response, just like she did when Brandon and Gilbert were canned and Terry did when Murray was shown the door. 

Whether the culture is the result or the father of the bad product is moot; one feeds the other, the market feels it, people bitch and complain and the circle continues.

What we are watching is their attempts at repairing the culture being perceived as more symptom than cure, which is pretty typical in times of change. I don’t blame people for not trusting the Pegula’s efforts, and I am not surprised that they are making mistakes in the process. I would prefer they brought in a proven sports executive to clean and streamline the organization because it would lessen the painful hunt and peck nature of the process. But what they are doing now - attempting to turn their hobby into a legitimate business -has to be done, whatever the process.

Because the status quo has not worked and they aren’t going to turn things over to a philanthropic board consisting of me, @LGR4GM and @PASabreFan (moderated by @nfreeman and audited by @SwampD) and our whiz kid GM @Randall Flagg any time soon.

Edited April 21, 2020 by dudacek

[Stoner]

Scum.

"I was up at my lake in the Adirondacks."

Bag.

[LGR4GM]

12 hours ago, Theana745 said:

And you do. You get the benefit of having such a large organization in your backyard. Think of the entertainment they provide, they jobs they create, the happiness they create. Imagine if PSE left, the impact it would have on Buffalo. Like it or not, they provide world class entertainment and job creator. From my time in Buffalo, the city is basically on the shoulders of UB and the pegullas.

 

Edit: Feeling like I'm finally get through to people ?

Here's my question. You are saying that I have to spend money and support the Pegulas and how they run the teams no matter what? Is that what you are getting at. I just want to make sure. 

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Isn’t that pretty much what is happening?

For all the work Tim put into that article, there is nothing particularly damning about what the Pegulas have done, in terms of unfair or unethical practices. The gist of their sins is they’ve created a workplace environment where people (most of whom are gone) aren’t or weren’t buying in and don’t or didn’t like coming to work: bad culture is our buzzword. Kim admitted as much in her response, just like she did when Brandon and Gilbert were canned and Terry did when Murray was shown the door. 

Whether the culture is the result or the father of the bad product is moot; one feeds the other, the market feels it, people bitch and complain and the circle continues.

What we are watching is their attempts at repairing the culture being perceived as more symptom than cure, which is pretty typical in times of change. I don’t blame people for not trusting the Pegula’s efforts, and I am not surprised that they are making mistakes in the process. I would prefer they brought in a proven sports executive to clean and streamline the organization because it would lessen the painful hunt and peck nature of the process. But what they are doing now - attempting to turn their hobby into a legitimate business -has to be done, whatever the process.

Because the status quo has not worked and they aren’t going to turn things over to a philanthropic board consisting of me, @LGR4GM and @PASabreFan (moderated by @nfreeman and audited by @SwampD) and our whiz kid GM @Randall Flagg any time soon.

In my experience, bad culture in an org always starts at the top and trickles down... funny how trickle down only applies to economics in these scenarios though. 

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

If I am being told that I basically owe loyalty because the Pegula's spend money than yes.

Not by me you're not.

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I would prefer they brought in a proven sports executive to clean and streamline the organization because it would lessen the painful hunt and peck nature of the process.

They did do that, as an initial matter. There was a veritable flotilla of FO types, Craig Patrick among them.

I'm holding out hope that they'll get this sorted, but I am pessimistic about their chances.

[Stoner]

It's not so funny to remember how Kim laughed off her office nickname a few years ago: the black widow. These people are toxic. There's no other word for it.

And as for "good people" — show me. Have very fortunate multibillionaires ever done so little for so few? Spare me with sports. Go build a children's hospital.

Edited April 21, 2020 by PASabreFan

[Neo]

I believe there’s enough to talk about in terms of approach, leadership and competence, where we can all have an informed view.  I won’t wade into the virtue pit, where none of us can.

[Theana745]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Here's my question. You are saying that I have to spend money and support the Pegulas and how they run the teams no matter what? Is that what you are getting at. I just want to make sure. 

If you want to make sure our organization remains in buffalo, yes. The ends justify the means

[Neo]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

 

If I am being told that I basically owe loyalty because the Pegula's spend money than yes.

I think you’re being told you have a choice.  Confusing choice with an invoice takes you down the confrontational path you’re paving.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Neo

[Zamboni]

I have been a STH since 2004. I will continue to be next season and the season after that, and ....

Facts, insults, hyperbole, exaggerations, and fantasies ... this thread has it all! ?

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

They did do that, as an initial matter. There was a veritable flotilla of FO types, Craig Patrick among them.

I'm holding out hope that they'll get this sorted, but I am pessimistic about their chances.

Craig Patrick was an advisor, Ken Sawyer was an advisor, the heirarchy around Pat Lafontaine was as uncertain as his qualifications, Russ Brandon was a football guy and apparently a sleaze and Kim Pegula is a sports business neophyte without an executive resume.

I have never seen the need for a hockey czar over a capable GM, but there is a need for someone to not only oversee,  but lead the operation of the business. Or, in this case a poorly structured, confusingly overlapping conglomerate of businesses.

Edited April 21, 2020 by dudacek

[nfreeman]

28 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

It's not so funny to remember how Kim laughed off her office nickname a few years ago: the black widow. These people are toxic. There's no other word for it.

And as for "good people" — show me. Have very fortunate multibillionaires ever done so little for so few? Spare me with sports. Go build a children's hospital.

JFC.  Every now and then the fear and loathing come bubbling up, innit?

What exactly is "toxic" about them?  They made a zillion dollars, bought our sports teams, kept them here, threw a ton of money at them AND at developing downtown Buffalo -- neither of which anyone else was willing to do or has ever done -- created a bunch of jobs, made some mistakes along the way, got the Bills from Mickey Mouse status to respected, professional franchise, haven't been able to do so yet with the Sabres but not for lack of trying, and are now -- like many other sports owners in an unprecedented situation -- trying to control spending.

Are they getting arrested for fraud like Rigas?

Are they alienating everyone they come into contact with like Dan Snyder?

Are they racists like Donald Sterling or Marge Schott?

Are they drug fiends like Jim Irsay?

Are they looking the other way when their players repeatedly commit sociopathic acts like many NFL owners?

Are they running brothels -- and joining in the fun -- like Jerry Jones?

Are they continuously beefing with franchise icons like James Dolan?

Are they blackmailing the city for a new stadium while gutting the team like Jeff Loria?

No, they aren't.

And do you have any information whatsoever about their charitable donations?  Or are you just assuming that because you've heard of the Penn State hockey donation but not anything else (other than, I suppose, the Covid-related donation they just made to WNY) that there is nothing else? 

[Stoner]

39 minutes ago, Neo said:

I believe there’s enough to talk about in terms of approach, leadership and competence, where we can all have an informed view.  I won’t wade into the virtue pit, where none of us can.

I can't have an informed view of their charitable activities? Do you think they've given away significant amounts of money without making sure everyone knows about it? Is it Nittany Arena in State College or is it named something else?

nfreeman, as to any personal Covid-related donation you think the Pegulas made, be careful. PSE, not the Pegulas, donated some money. We don't know how much. The teams' foundations kicked in the rest. Most of it, if I had to guess.

[LGR4GM]

50 minutes ago, Theana745 said:

If you want to make sure our organization remains in buffalo, yes. The ends justify the means

Guess I am out then. The Sabres are not entertaining. They have not been in many years. I don't see signs from the ownership they understand how to fix that. Therefore I will spend my money on other things. So idk what ends you want to justify but at the end of the day, I am not spending money on this team until they get their ***** straightened out. If that results in the team leaving, so be it. That isn't on me. That is on the owners for creating something that is not entertaining or worth my time. It is not on me to blindly be loyal regardless of what product they are selling. 

The ends justify the means. I suppose then is about what end we are justifying. The Pegulas bad decision making or my decision to not spend money on something that ceased to be of value. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by LGR4GM

[Stoner]

14 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

JFC.  Every now and then the fear and loathing come bubbling up, innit?

What exactly is "toxic" about them?  They made a zillion dollars, bought our sports teams, kept them here, threw a ton of money at them AND at developing downtown Buffalo -- neither of which anyone else was willing to do or has ever done -- created a bunch of jobs, made some mistakes along the way, got the Bills from Mickey Mouse status to respected, professional franchise, haven't been able to do so yet with the Sabres but not for lack of trying, and are now -- like many other sports owners in an unprecedented situation -- trying to control spending.

Are they getting arrested for fraud like Rigas?

Are they alienating everyone they come into contact with like Dan Snyder?

Are they racists like Donald Sterling or Marge Schott?

Are they drug fiends like Jim Irsay?

Are they looking the other way when their players repeatedly commit sociopathic acts like many NFL owners?

Are they running brothels -- and joining in the fun -- like Jerry Jones?

Are they continuously beefing with franchise icons like James Dolan?

Are they blackmailing the city for a new stadium while gutting the team like Jeff Loria?

No, they aren't.

And do you have any information whatsoever about their charitable donations?  Or are you just assuming that because you've heard of the Penn State hockey donation but not anything else (other than, I suppose, the Covid-related donation they just made to WNY) that there is nothing else? 

Wow, those are some pretty impressive bars to have to hurdle. Give them time. I can already, on a hunch, check off a few of those boxes. Mayor Black anyone? That one brilliant Athletic story reveals a lot about these people. What part of superyacht and family lifestyle don't you understand?

[LTS]

15 hours ago, Theana745 said:

Couldn't agree more. I think a lot of poster are just frustrated at the wealth gap and divide in this country (thoughts that get projected to this organization), and when a piece like this came out, people jumped on it like sharks. I've said this so many times before, but people are going to have to come together here, whether you like it or not. And again, before people say I have a dog in this fight, I don't anymore. The success of this organization is a vital part to Buffalo, and the direction it goes is partially dependent on your support. Like or not, you have to create a culture that makes players/talented managers and others want to come here. And this goes for every major field. If everyone here is moping around, you're not going to get best neurosurgeon here etc. Culture comes from the ground up.

This is an absolutely horrible take.  The best neurosurgeon will go wherever a healthcare system will promise them the most money and almost assuredly the most leeway to run various levels of medical studies with insane resources and as little oversight as possible.

Patients will travel between cities to find that single neurosurgeon. 

The success of the organization is dependent upon those who run it, not the people who live in the same area code it's run in.  The fans can take down a successful organization by still continuing to not care about it.  Fans aren't responsible for a failing organization, it takes care of itself.  No business is run on the premise of give me money first and I will give you a quality product second.  It doesn't work that way, period.  Even if it happens to work for a brief period of time, it's not sustainable. 

Your take is myopic and puts a value on sports that is perceived but not real.  Plenty of cities in this country thrive without a sports team in them. The initial impact might be significant, but people move on and these days they usually do so within weeks.

44 minutes ago, Theana745 said:

If you want to make sure our organization remains in buffalo, yes. The ends justify the means

I suppose everyone is different, but eventually each person wakes up and realizes that handing hard earned money to an entity that has no interest in improving your quality of life is not justifiable. I mean, why improve the product or invest if people keep blindly handing over money?

[LGR4GM]

41 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

I have been a STH since 2004. I will continue to be next season and the season after that, and ....

Facts, insults, hyperbole, exaggerations, and fantasies ... this thread has it all! ?

Here's the thing. I am not in here telling you not be a STH. You do what you want.

What I take exception in this thread is the notion from others that I am responsible for placating the Pegulas bank accounts enough for them in their benevolence to keep the team here. I am not. I don't have to spend money and if they move the team, I will probably stop following hockey all together at this point. 

[That Aud Smell]

39 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Are they getting arrested for fraud like Rigas? 

I've mostly been on the other (another?) side of this debate than you, but I will tip my hat to a robust, persuasive post when I read one.

[Neo]

8 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I can't have an informed view of their charitable activities? Do you think they've given away significant amounts of money without making sure everyone knows about it? Is it Nittany Arena in State College or is it named something else?

nfreeman, as to any personal Covid-related donation you think the Pegulas made, be careful. PSE, not the Pegulas, donated some money. We don't know how much. The teams' foundations kicked in the rest. Most of it, if I had to guess.

One, the informed view I was referring to had to do with character.  You called them toxic and suggested they don’t give enough.  You may have a character judge gene I do not.  Toxic is quite a term.

You also asked if any billionaire has ever done so little, referenced a $102 million gift, and then wrote you have no idea what else they’ve done.  I can’t even follow that reasoning unless it’s connected to some “every gift must be publicly recorded for me to judge against some philanthropy standard only I possess” chart.

So, to answer your direct question, I can’t see you as having an informed view about a subject about which you indicate you lack information.

Here’s an uninformed view.  “The toxic rich never do enough, no matter what they do”.  I’ll let you decide what view is best supported by your posts and the evidence you did or didn’t present.

 

 

23 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Wow, those are some pretty impressive bars to have to hurdle. Give them time. I can already, on a hunch, check off a few of those boxes. Mayor Black anyone? That one brilliant Athletic story reveals a lot about these people. What part of superyacht and family lifestyle don't you understand?

Superyacht! Lifestyle!  Evil!

[That Aud Smell]

57 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Craig Patrick was an advisor, Ken Sawyer was an advisor,

Fair points, there. And I think you make another good, larger point: The management, organizational structures -- such as they've been -- have mostly been a hot mess in Sabreland since 2/11/11.

[Zamboni]

8 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Here's the thing. I am not in here telling you not be a STH. You do what you want.

What I take exception in this thread is the notion from others that I am responsible for placating the Pegulas bank accounts enough for them in their benevolence to keep the team here. I am not. I don't have to spend money and if they move the team, I will probably stop following hockey all together at this point. 

I won’t stop supporting hockey. Either thru my money or my viewing. Because I love the sport. So if the Sabres ever folded and moved, I would go to Amerks games more. Beauts games more than I already do. UB games more. Niagara University games more.  Canisius college games more. Occasionally travel to Pittsburgh, or NY Rangers. I would get my fix elsewhere. Because, I love the sport. And In a fantasy scenario where the Sabres relocated, I would support other organizations. Just not Toronto. Those fools can F off. ?

[Curt]

43 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Are they running brothels -- and joining in the fun -- like Jerry Jones?

Robert Kraft?  No?

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

It's not so funny to remember how Kim laughed off her office nickname a few years ago: the black widow.

I still think about that sometimes.

On the one hand, she needs to be tough and maybe a little feared to make her way in a high-stakes, male-dominated industry.

On the other hand ... not the most promising of signs that she sort of embraced the sobriquet.

[darksabre]

8 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I still think about that sometimes.

On the one hand, she needs to be tough and maybe a little feared to make her way in a high-stakes, male-dominated industry.

On the other hand ... not the most promising of signs that she sort of embraced the sobriquet.

The problem with that reputation is that, if it's true, you end up with employees who live in fear, which makes them unwilling to be creative, speak up when they think something is wrong, or take risks. You end up with business culture that rewards doing what you're told, keeping your head down, and hoping your paycheck keeps coming until you can find a way out. You hemorrhage your best employees that way. The good ones don't stay in places like that. The bad ones do... and then you end up hiring your family members because they're the only ones who you can guilt into showing up..

Kinda sounds like GM in the 80s...

[nfreeman]

40 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Wow, those are some pretty impressive bars to have to hurdle. Give them time. I can already, on a hunch, check off a few of those boxes. Mayor Black anyone? That one brilliant Athletic story reveals a lot about these people. What part of superyacht and family lifestyle don't you understand?

"On a hunch" appears to animate most of your posts on this topic.

In addition to -- proudly, it appears -- assuming that they aren't charitable based on zero facts, what boxes are you checking off based on hunches?  Drugs?  Racism?  Brothels?  Fraud?  Which family members do your hunches tell you are indulging in these vices?  How certain are you?

You've mentioned a few times that you don't subscribe to the Athletic.  Were you able to read the full story, or is your description of it as "brilliant" and "reveals a lot" also based on a hunch?

As for superyacht and family lifestyle -- are they not allowed to own a fancy yacht?  Are they not allowed to have/enjoy their lifestyle?