OT: The New Religion Thread.

[Neo]

Happy everything to everybody.

For me, He is risen!  He is risen, indeed.

I watched The Passion of the Christ last night with Mrs. Neo.  Remarkably, she’d not seen it.  I took a youth group to the theater when it came out, some 16 years ago, but hadn’t seen it since.   Mrs. Neo is the spiritual leader in our house.  I’m glad to have watched it with her.  The film was not her cup of tea, but it led us to Mary Magdalene and Bible study.  What a fascinating character (s?).  Who Mary was depends on your source!

We did Easter service on television, screen mirroring an iPad.   We still have community.  Tonight, we will have a glorious dinner.  We ordered out ...  trying to keep one of our favorite restaurants alive.  After dinner, we’ll adjoirn to the television, again, and watch Jesus Christ Superstar.  I believe Andrew Lloyd Weber’s piece is pure genius.  I love it.  My kids are texting my wife and me with lyrics ...  “He is daaaAaaangerrrRRRrrouuuus” ...  and sharing  “OMG Papa and that soundtrack, for a month, every year!” memories.   For those of you with children ...  they’re watching you and will remember your quirks forever.   It’s nice.  “One thing I’ll say for him, Jesus is cool”.

Lloyd Weber, of all people, first challenged me with the idea of Judas as a full person.  I am much more engaged in the conversation when Judas is three dimensional, and not just some backstabbing villain.   Forty years later, I met Javert in Les Misérables, another three dimensional villain.  They live in the same neighborhood in my head.

Happy Easter, all.

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Neo

[Neo]

Oh, and I just watched this ... er, watched and listened .... live.

Ave Maria, Sancta Maria, and Amazing Grace ....  among others.  If he had been in my living room asking me what I’d like to hear, those would’ve been the three I chose.

What’s the Ricky Fitts quote, again?

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Neo

[Curt]

2 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

I'm getting tired of this thread. As a Christian, I realize that I'm in the minority, and I expect to be viewed in a negative light.  

Just from myself personally, I’m only viewing your comments in a negative light because you are not being very respectful of others’ beliefs.

[erickompositör72]

23 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

Fine.  We'll let NS speak for himself. He did say, as Muslims say, that the Bible has been purposely altered to fundamentally change the religion. 

I'm getting tired of this thread. As a Christian, I realize that I'm in the minority, and I expect to be viewed in a negative light.   I believe that Jesus

was the nicest man who ever lived; and they killed him.    When you try to speak truth, people will get offended.

 

I'm not here to argue.  I come here for some hockey insight.   I realize that I'm not Mr. Popular here anyhow.  I've made my key points. I'll

try to move along.

Please don't play the victim card. I can only speak for myself, but I don't view Christians in a negative light. There is a progressive Lutheran Church here that I consider my family, as I participate in artistic events with them and am very close with the Pastor and many members. Technically I'm actually a member. These people are very dear to me, and they accept me no matter what my specific beliefs are. As I said, I find the words of Jesus very inspiring.

Edited April 12, 2020 by erickompositör72

[ubkev]

The last time I saw my family on Easter, the sabres lost in overtime, my mother heard me say f*** for the first time and Ville Leino ruined everything forever! 

Happy Easter

F*** Ville Leino 

Just kidding! Happy Easter, Ville Leino.

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

I think you could find similar examples of Christians controlling/altering religious texts throughout history.

 

1 hour ago, etiennep99 said:

It's not I who on the Eve of Easter decided to post that Christianity was a complete hoax, using Muslim inspired Fake News. 

 

It's rather disingenuous for a Muslim to wish Christians a Blessed Easter because you believe the the whole passion narrative was essentially a hoax. Muslims try to use language to ingratiate themselves to those who are ignorant of the key differences.  As a Christian, I would never wish someone a happy Ramadan. It's not out of mean spiritedness. It's out of INTEGRITY.

 

For those who do not know, Muslims believe that Christ's death on the cross was a hoax.    Here's the Quran:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

— Qur'an, surah 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157–158^[

 

OK. Find it. Show me where the text was fundamentally changed in character (outside of the Gnostic Heretics).

What about the gospels that never made it into the Bible.

53 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

I'm not here to try to coerce you into another belief.   God gave us freewill.  I'm glad that you have peace.

Seems like you are just here to yell at everyone for being wrong.

[Curt]

54 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

At first blush the comparison might seem harsh, but only to those who are ignorant of History.  Hitler killed millions.  Muslims have killed millions of Jews and Christians.

I quote the Quran:

And when the forbidden months have passed, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and take them prisoners, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

I’m not ignorant of history.  Muslims have killed millions, Christians have killed millions, Hitler killed millions.  People kill other people.  It’s not because of their religion.

[erickompositör72]

4 minutes ago, Curt said:

I’m not ignorant of history.  Muslims have killed millions, Christians have killed millions, Hitler killed millions.  People kill other people.  It’s not because of their religion.

Like it or not, we are alive today most likely because our direct ancestors did the killing, rather than being killed. It is the human condition.

EDIT: "Most likely" is probably better stated "most definitely"

Edited April 12, 2020 by erickompositör72

[etiennep99]

56 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

Please don't play the victim card. I can only speak for myself, but I don't view Christians in a negative light. There is a progressive Lutheran Church here that I consider my family, as I participate in artistic events with them and am very close with the Pastor and many members. Technically I'm actually a member. These people are very dear to me, and they accept me no matter what my specific beliefs are. As I said, I find the words of Jesus very inspiring.

PTL.

32 minutes ago, Curt said:

I’m not ignorant of history.  Muslims have killed millions, Christians have killed millions, Hitler killed millions.  People kill other people.  It’s not because of their religion.

It exactly because of their beliefs that people have killed millions.  Senseless killing is even more sinister.   The Quran says to make war against unbelievers. The Bible says to love your neighbor.   Have people done evil in the name of Christianity?  Of course. But it's an aberration of the true intent.

[etiennep99]

35 minutes ago, SwampD said:

 

What about the gospels that never made it into the Bible.

Seems like you are just here to yell at everyone for being wrong.

Where am I yelling?  I haven't put anything in bold or all caps save to highlight some key differences, as I recall.  I'm sorry if it seems like I'm yelling. I'm not.  This is calm discourse.

As for the "other" gospels, the early church fathers wrote extensively about heresies and the need to hold fast to the truth as given in the 4 gospels.  One of our oldest extant texts is a copy of the Diatessaron which was a later attempt to "harmonize" the 4 gospels into 1 single text; it was almost universally condemned as a distortion.  Irenaeus was a church father who flourished circa 170AD; he wrote extensively against the gnostics.  Irenaeus was a disciple of the martyr Polycarp who was a disciple of John.   Two degrees of separation from a disciple; three from Jesus himself.  The point is that the early church strove to keep their sources pure.

Talking about keeping sources pure, we have the Dead Sea scrolls which date as early as 300 BC(!).  Aside from some textual differences, they are in the main congruent with our existing Old Testament texts.   The scribes was exceedingly exacting in trying to keep their copies pure.  The early Christians had a similar mindset, except that they tended to prefer the LXX over the Hebrew texts in several places.   The "Majority Text" Greek manuscripts are very numerous and are in accord with one another.

The Dead Sea scrolls should be the only proof needed against Islam as Islam says that Jews and Christians corrupted the Bible.  But some our texts pre-date Islam by up to 900 years. What's more believable: Jews and Christians conspired to alter texts for thousands of years, or Mohammad living in backwater, desert Arabia got jumbled source material from mainstream and heretical sources? (There are stories in the Quran which parallel heretical Christian texts; and the Christian texts, of course, pre-date the Quranic texts).  Remember, Islamic tradition states that Mohammed couldn't even read nor write.

 

So, yes, it is a falsehood that Christians doctored their religion and changed their belief system.  As the myth goes, after Emperor Constantine converted, he called the Council of Nicea to get the scribes to fundamentally change the religion.   It's a silly idea.   The proponents of this theory never give us proof of what they think  the religio nhad  been -  where Christians were hunted down, willingly martyred, and persecuted for hundreds of years.    The gnostics thought that salvation came from knowing a secret code; surely you're not going to willing go to death if you haven't received the secret yet.   The corruption theory is fake news.

[Curt]

26 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

PTL.

It exactly because of their beliefs that people have killed millions.  Senseless killing is even more sinister.   The Quran says to make war against unbelievers. The Bible says to love your neighbor.   Have people done evil in the name of Christianity?  Of course. But it's an aberration of the true intent.

It’s rarely truly because of religious beliefs.  Religion can be a great scapegoat.  It’s a good way to mobilize a population.

[etiennep99]

I think that we are saying the same thing from different angles.  ??

[#freejame]

8 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

Where am I yelling?  I haven't put anything in bold or all caps save to highlight some key differences, as I recall.  I'm sorry if it seems like I'm yelling. I'm not.  This is calm discourse.

As for the "other" gospels, the early church fathers wrote extensively about heresies and the need to hold fast to the truth as given in the 4 gospels.  One of our oldest extant texts is a copy of the Diatessaron which was a later attempt to "harmonize" the 4 gospels into 1 single text; it was almost universally condemned as a distortion.  Irenaeus was a church father who flourished circa 170AD; he wrote extensively against the gnostics.  Irenaeus was a disciple of the martyr Polycarp who was a disciple of John.   Two degrees of separation from a disciple; three from Jesus himself.  The point is that the early church strove to keep their sources pure.

Talking about keeping sources pure, we have the Dead Sea scrolls which date as early as 300 BC(!).  Aside from some textual differences, they are in the main congruent with our existing Old Testament texts.   The scribes was exceedingly exacting in trying to keep their copies pure.  The early Christians had a similar mindset, except that they tended to prefer the LXX over the Hebrew texts in several places.   The "Majority Text" Greek manuscripts are very numerous and are in accord with one another.

The Dead Sea scrolls should be the only proof needed against Islam as Islam says that Jews and Christians corrupted the Bible.  But some our texts pre-date Islam by up to 900 years. What's more believable: Jews and Christians conspired to alter texts for thousands of years, or Mohammad living in backwater, desert Arabia got jumbled source material from mainstream and heretical sources? (There are stories in the Quran which parallel heretical Christian texts; and the Christian texts, of course, pre-date the Quranic texts).  Remember, Islamic tradition states that Mohammed couldn't even read nor write.

 

So, yes, it is a falsehood that Christians doctored their religion and changed their belief system.  As the myth goes, after Emperor Constantine converted, he called the Council of Nicea to get the scribes to fundamentally change the religion.   It's a silly idea.   The proponents of this theory never give us proof of what they think  the religio nhad  been -  where Christians were hunted down, willingly martyred, and persecuted for hundreds of years.    The gnostics thought that salvation came from knowing a secret code; surely you're not going to willing go to death if you haven't received the secret yet.   The corruption theory is fake news.

Both of these are equally 100% believable. Your general tone against Islam is also not civil discourse. You are taking everything Christian under the light of absolute truth and everything Islam under the light of absolute falsehood. Your are also dismissing every fault of Christianity and “no true Scotsmen” whereas the same is not being applied to Islam. Christians have killed many, many times in the name of Christianity. Muslims have killed many, many times in the name of Islam. These are undeniable truths. 

[etiennep99]

When David Icke says that Covid-19 is a hoax caused by 5G, I take offence.  I don't want to censor the guy, but he's clearly talking smack. (That's not to say that 5G hasn't been tested for negative health impacts; just to say that Sars-Cov-2 is real.)    When people say that the Earth is flat, I think that they are incredibly naive and ignorant. When people say that the moon landing was a hoax, I think it's silly.  When people say that The Civil War had nothing to do with slavery, I find it offensive.  When people say that Holocaust was a hoax, I'm offended.   But I don't go bat-crazy on people; I just feel sad. I'm just putting out facts to let people decide for themselves. But, to quote Marcus Aurelius:

#2: “Choose not to be harmed and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.”

#1: “When you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: The people I deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly. They are like this because they can’t tell good from evil. But I have seen the beauty of good and the ugliness of evil, and have recognized that the wrongdoer has a nature related to my own – not of the same blood or birth, but the same mind, and possessing a share of the divine. And so none of them can hurt me. No one can implicate me in ugliness. Nor can I feel angry at my relative, or hate him. We were born to work together like feet, hands, and eyes, like the two rows of teeth, upper and lower. To obstruct each other is unnatural. To feel anger at someone, to turn your back on him: these are obstructions.”

 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Nice try @Eleven.  It was a good thread until it wasn't.

[Curt]

17 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

I'm just putting out facts to let people decide for themselves.

You don’t need to pushing out facts, trying to disprove the validity or goodness of other people’s religions. It’s not for you to judge.  That’s the issue here.

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Nice try @Eleven.  It was a good thread until it wasn't.

Yeah, probably not a good idea when we're all on lockdown.

 

All right, I've received enough messages asking me to reopen.  (You do all know that you could just start your own, right?)  I guess if what's being said in here bothers you, don't read it or whatever.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Eleven

[FogBat]

To the best of my knowledge, I'm glad this thread didn't exist before I was suspended and given a warning point. I've had the time I needed to get help, do some growing, and take some time to listen to the other side while still maintaining my core convictions and principles.

[Weave]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

You don’t need to pushing out facts, trying to disprove the validity or goodness of other people’s religions. It’s not for you to judge.  That’s the issue here.

This is well said.  Religion is a personal thing. Pushing a message that your religion is more accurate, valid, correct, or whatever the right word is not cool.

[FogBat]

5 hours ago, Curt said:

I think you could find similar examples of Christians controlling/altering religious texts throughout history.

That depends on which scholars we consult. Textual criticism is very much, shall we say, inside hockey. The James White/Bart Ehrman debate from several years ago made this very clear about different schools of thought on the matter.

 

[FogBat]

5 hours ago, etiennep99 said:

I didn't say it. Jesus said it: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"

 

Many times people read something with closed mind.  Pop culture has a view of Christianity which is mostly false.  Even

the Catholic church has many things wrong.   You have to be open to truly seeking out the Truth regardless the consequences.

The Bible records a conversation where a rich man asked Jesus what it would take for him to get into heaven. Jesus told

 the man to sell everything and become his disciple. The rich man couldn't bring himself to do that.
 

Honest question: how long have you believed the Gospel?

[FogBat]

5 hours ago, etiennep99 said:

God gave us freewill.

Sorry, but I disagree. He gave us human responsibility. If there is any "freewill", it is done according to whether we are saved or not. Ligonier Ministries has some excellent resources on the freewill question.

[FogBat]

5 hours ago, Curt said:

Just from myself personally, I’m only viewing your comments in a negative light because you are not being very respectful of others’ beliefs.

You would have said the same thing to me several years ago. I know where etiennep99 is coming from. I've been there.

[FogBat]

5 hours ago, erickompositör72 said:

 

I believe the thread title serves as the appropriate "trigger warning" ?

enter at your own risk...

No kidding! I can understand etiennep99's zeal. I've been there. I hope he understands that he needs time to grow and learn. Tact doesn't appear to be a strong suit for him.

5 hours ago, etiennep99 said:

Fine.  We'll let NS speak for himself. He did say, as Muslims say, that the Bible has been purposely altered to fundamentally change the religion. 

I'm getting tired of this thread. As a Christian, I realize that I'm in the minority, and I expect to be viewed in a negative light.   I believe that Jesus

was the nicest man who ever lived; and they killed him.    When you try to speak truth, people will get offended.

 

I'm not here to argue.  I come here for some hockey insight.   I realize that I'm not Mr. Popular here anyhow.  I've made my key points. I'll

try to move along.

NS and I may disagree over the Islam question. However, we treat each other with respect as much as we can. He and I (and the rest of us) are fellow imagebearers since we were all made in the image of God. Being taught that essential piece of truth went a very long way in how I do my best to relate to others.

As for not being Mr. Popular, I used to worry about that. Not anymore. I am not looking to be popular. I'd rather stand by my convictions and yet treat others with respect - and they know this. Trust me: they are watching. They made that clear in their responses to you.

[Stoner]

And the thread is resurrected.