OT: The New Religion Thread.

[Indabuff]

Hoppy Easter and happy pre-Dyngus Day!

Edited April 12, 2020 by Indabuff

[Curt]

13 hours ago, etiennep99 said:

That's what people get wrong ALL THE TIME.   Faith isn't blind. That's why Jesus came in the flesh for all to see Him, his teachings, and his miracles.  

For Christians, 1st it was the empty tomb. 2nd it was seeing Jesus resurrected, 3rd it was seeing the miracles that the disciples worked in Jesus name.

True born-again Christians have the Holy Spirit (i.e. God!) dwelling IN them !   That's experience, having God live right inside of you!

So, yeah, the first step might be a leap of faith, but God reveals truth to his children (IFF you seek it until you find it!!)

This sounds to me like you are saying:  You will find proof if you look hard enough until you find it.

I would say this is true of anything.  I’ve lived for 34 years and attended Catholic mass weekly for 15+ years, and the truth has yet to be revealed to me.  I’m open to all different kinds of ideas, but none have shown themselves to be the truth definitively.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Curt
I cant speel tings.

[Curt]

13 hours ago, etiennep99 said:

On the Eve of Easter, I couldn't let this stand uncorrected:

That's a tired old, long disproven trope.   Most scholars, even sceptics, believe that Gospels depict true events and were written in the decades that followed Jesus' crucifixion.  So, Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John would all disagree.  No one can read the New Testament and be in doubt that Jesus claimed that he was divine.  Indeed: That's the WHOLE story, how the Jewish authorities were outraged by Jesus' teachings and claims of divine provenance: that's why they killed him!

  John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

I quote:

--

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Jesus uses the title “I AM,” the name God uses for Himself when answering Moses in Exodus 3:14. The reaction of the Pharisees confirms this is precisely what Jesus was claiming because they tried to stone Him for blasphemy.

--

                                 

Jesus makes it entirely clear to those who are tuned in.   Furthermore, the Old Testament TaNaK also prophesied Jesus.  The Jews at the time just misunderstood the prophecies.

Christianity was founded by Jews:  Jesus, the 12 Disciples, and Paul.

It is Islam which has the historicity problems.  There are no references to Mohammed for decades.  The Mosques point in different directions for over 100 years as if they

didn't know to pray towards Petra, Jerusalem, or the new teeny tiny tent city of Mecca (which was on no maps of the time); Mecca  was home to the new power brokers after Uthman.

                           

I hope that you can see the juxtaposition of these two statements.  The same statement used as evidence of truth in one case and evidence of a historicity problem in another.

I feel quite certain that any document written, copied and translated by human hand for 1,300+ years will come out the other side with significant alterations from the original.  These documents are the creations of humans.

You speak as if your beliefs are the single, correct truth.  I would urge you to understand that those who do not believe the same things as you have their own truth, that in their eyes, is no less correct than yours is to you.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Curt

[Curt]

And a very Happy Easter to everyone, whether you celebrate it yourselves or not.  I still look at as a day to celebrate new beginnings and the coming of spring.

I feel that people should look at this Easter and consider that there will be a coming “spring” after this “winter” that we are currently experiencing.  That’s what I’m trying to do.  It’s the best that I can come up with.

[Zamboni]

Happy Easter!

 

 

and now, for something completely different ...

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 minute ago, Zamboni said:

Happy Easter!

 

 

and now, for something completely different ...

If I recall correctly ... the rabbit won that fight.

[erickompositör72]

2 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Well, so much for being civil.   I will not address the post above that was in reply to mine, except to say that I respectfully disagree with all of it.  It is accepted widely by most Christians that the Gospels have been altered to meet a narrative.  Also, down through the ages Prophets fortold of future Prophets.  Moses (PBUH) fortold of Jesus (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH) fortold of Muhammad (PBUH) and many others.

Nice try @Eleven, I am a bit surprised it lasted as long as it did.

I wish everyone who is celebrating the day in any way a very Blessed Easter.

I'm very fascinated by this. What are the texts/passages that are pointed to as foretelling Muhammad and others?

FWIW, I don't have a horse in this race ☮️☯️

[Sabres Fan in NS]

3 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

I'm very fascinated by this. What are the texts/passages that are pointed to as foretelling Muhammad and others?

FWIW, I don't have a horse in this race ☮️☯️

I don't remember the exact texts and quotes, sorry.

I did find a very good summary by my local Imam ...

https://www.whyislam.org/common-ground/mohammed-in-the-bible-jesus-prophecy/

 

[etiennep99]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

This sounds to me like you are saying:  You will find proof if you look hard enough until you find it.

I would say this is true of anything.  I’ve lived for 34 years and attended Catholic mass weekly for 15+ years, and the truth has yet to be revealed to me.  I’m open to all different kinds of ideas, but none have shown themselves to be the truth definitively.

I didn't say it. Jesus said it: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"

 

Many times people read something with closed mind.  Pop culture has a view of Christianity which is mostly false.  Even

the Catholic church has many things wrong.   You have to be open to truly seeking out the Truth regardless the consequences.

The Bible records a conversation where a rich man asked Jesus what it would take for him to get into heaven. Jesus told

 the man to sell everything and become his disciple. The rich man couldn't bring himself to do that.
 

[etiennep99]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

I hope that you can see the juxtaposition of these two statements.  The same statement used as evidence of truth in one case and evidence of a historicity problem in another.

I feel quite certain that any document written, copied and translated by human hand for 1,300+ years will come out the other side with significant alterations from the original.  These documents are the creations of humans.

You speak as if your beliefs are the single, correct truth.  I would urge you to understand that those who do not believe the same things as you have their own truth, that in their eyes, is no less correct than yours is to you.

There are several subtle distinctions here.  One: the Bible has 4 separate eye-witness accounts composed after Jesus death (but likely containing material from journals and memories: to wit the original "Q" - Quelle).  Two: Christianity was considered as a heretical Jewish sect that  suffered early persecution from Jews and Romans; Christianity was essentially forced to go underground. Ex. Emperor Nero was killing Christians in 64 AD.    Three: Christianity started 600 years earlier so early texts are less likely to have survived, and yet our earliest NT pages are from 150AD.   Fourth: there are secular references to the events, such as Pontius Pilate as being in Roman and secular historical records.

 

In complete contrast, Islam spread by conquest over the entire Middle East and North Africa shortly afterwards.  The Muslims were in control.  And yet there were no Muslim nor secular references to Mohammed by name for decades.   Even the Dome of the Rock, built in 690AD doesn't mention Mohammed by name, only as The Prophet.   As for the Quran: it was assembled after Mohammed died and many of his close followers were being killed off in battle.

I quote Wikipedia:

--

Under Caliph Uthman, a committee of five copied the scraps into a single volume, "monitoring the text as they went", resolving disagreements about verses, tracking down a lost verse.^[14] This muṣḥaf -- that became known as the "Uthmanic codex" -- was finished around 650 CE,^[15][16] whereupon Uthman issued an order for all other existing personal and individual copies and dialects of the Quran (known as Ahruf) to be burnt.

--

What this text doesn't mention is that there were more submissions refused for entry than were accepted.  Notice as well that they BURNT all disagreeing texts.

It's as if Hitler conquered Europe in 1940.  But no one knew his name until 1960; he was only known The Fuhrer to the whole world. And Mein Kampft was only put together from memories of his some followers decades after his death.

[Curt]

7 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

It's as if Hitler conquered Europe in 1940.  But no one knew his name until 1960; he was only known The Fuhrer to the whole world. And Mein Kampft was only put together from memories of his some followers decades after his death.

I think you could have chosen a less insulting parallel here.

[erickompositör72]

36 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

I didn't say it. Jesus said it: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"

 

Many times people read something with closed mind.  Pop culture has a view of Christianity which is mostly false.  Even

the Catholic church has many things wrong.   You have to be open to truly seeking out the Truth regardless the consequences.

The Bible records a conversation where a rich man asked Jesus what it would take for him to get into heaven. Jesus told

 the man to sell everything and become his disciple. The rich man couldn't bring himself to do that.
 

With all due respect, I asked, I sought, and I knocked (for the first 20 years of my life). I was never given, didn't find anything, or have anything opened for me that would be considered Christianity.

 

I did, however, come to find the words and teaching of Jesus (not so much the apostles) to be incredibly inspiring and enlightening. I find much of what he said about existence and humanity to be revolutionary and truly inspired. I also just happen to believe that he was merely human (of the most brilliant kind, mind you), but not divine.

EDIT: I should add, I do not believe he is any more "divine" than you or I. As for the idea of divinity, I believe it's something we can all connect to and are made of.

Edited April 12, 2020 by erickompositör72

[Curt]

9 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

Under Caliph Uthman, a committee of five copied the scraps into a single volume, "monitoring the text as they went", resolving disagreements about verses, tracking down a lost verse.^[14] This muṣḥaf -- that became known as the "Uthmanic codex" -- was finished around 650 CE,^[15][16] whereupon Uthman issued an order for all other existing personal and individual copies and dialects of the Quran (known as Ahruf) to be burnt.

--

What this text doesn't mention is that there were more submissions refused for entry than were accepted.  Notice as well that they BURNT all disagreeing texts.

I think you could find similar examples of Christians controlling/altering religious texts throughout history.

[etiennep99]

3 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Well, so much for being civil.   I will not address the post above that was in reply to mine, except to say that I respectfully disagree with all of it.  It is accepted widely by most Christians that the Gospels have been altered to meet a narrative.  Also, down through the ages Prophets fortold of future Prophets.  Moses (PBUH) fortold of Jesus (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH) fortold of Muhammad (PBUH) and many others.

Nice try @Eleven, I am a bit surprised it lasted as long as it did.

I wish everyone who is celebrating the day in any way a very Blessed Easter.

It's not I who on the Eve of Easter decided to post that Christianity was a complete hoax, using Muslim inspired Fake News. 

 

It's rather disingenuous for a Muslim to wish Christians a Blessed Easter because you believe the the whole passion narrative was essentially a hoax. Muslims try to use language to ingratiate themselves to those who are ignorant of the key differences.  As a Christian, I would never wish someone a happy Ramadan. It's not out of mean spiritedness. It's out of INTEGRITY.

 

For those who do not know, Muslims believe that Christ's death on the cross was a hoax.    Here's the Quran:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

— Qur'an, surah 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157–158^[

 

Just now, Curt said:

I think you could find similar examples of Christians controlling/altering religious texts throughout history.

OK. Find it. Show me where the text was fundamentally changed in character (outside of the Gnostic Heretics).

[erickompositör72]

2 minutes ago, Curt said:

I think you could have chosen a less insulting parallel here.

I agree; such a reference really does not promote civil dialogue

[etiennep99]

1 minute ago, erickompositör72 said:

With all due respect, I asked, I sought, and I knocked (for the first 20 years of my life). I was never given, didn't find anything, or have anything opened for me that would be considered Christianity.

 

I did, however, come to find the words and teaching of Jesus (not so much the apostles) to be incredibly inspiring and enlightening. I find much of what he said about existence and humanity to be revolutionary and truly inspired. I also just happen to believe that he was merely human (of the most brilliant kind, mind you), but not divine.

I'm here today to tell you that there is more to be found.  Please don't give up.  I was lost for years too.  I pray that the Holy Spirit would touch you and help guide you to where you will find peace.

[Zamboni]

My god, this thread is a bad idea. 

 

^ see what I did there ?

Edited April 12, 2020 by Zamboni

[etiennep99]

1 minute ago, erickompositör72 said:

I agree; such a reference really does not promote civil dialogue

At first blush the comparison might seem harsh, but only to those who are ignorant of History.  Hitler killed millions.  Muslims have killed millions of Jews and Christians.

I quote the Quran:

And when the forbidden months have passed, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and take them prisoners, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
 

[erickompositör72]

1 minute ago, etiennep99 said:

I'm here today to tell you that there is more to be found.  Please don't give up.  I was lost for years too.  I pray that the Holy Spirit would touch you and help guide you to where you will find peace.

Thank you, I appreciate it. I'm happy to say I'm not lost. I've never been more at peace with the universe in my entire life. Christianity did not bring me peace or comfort, unfortunately. I consider my existence a privilege and a wonder, and I hope you too have that same peace and wonderment in your faith that I have found.

[Weave]

2 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

My god, this thread is a bad idea. 

 

^ see what I did there ?

Yup.  There is too Much pride involved.

[etiennep99]

1 minute ago, erickompositör72 said:

Thank you, I appreciate it. I'm happy to say I'm not lost. I've never been more at peace with the universe in my entire life. Christianity did not bring me peace or comfort, unfortunately. I consider my existence a privilege and a wonder, and I hope you too have that same peace and wonderment in your faith that I have found.

I'm not here to try to coerce you into another belief.   God gave us freewill.  I'm glad that you have peace.

[erickompositör72]

5 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

My god, this thread is a bad idea. 

 

^ see what I did there ?

 

1 minute ago, Weave said:

Yup.  There is too Much pride involved.

I believe the thread title serves as the appropriate "trigger warning" ?

enter at your own risk...

[Curt]

7 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

It's not I who on the Eve of Easter decided to post that Christianity was a complete hoax, using Muslim inspired Fake News. 

 

It's rather disingenuous for a Muslim to wish Christians a Blessed Easter because you believe the the whole passion narrative was essentially a hoax. Muslims try to use language to ingratiate themselves to those who are ignorant of the key differences.  As a Christian, I would never wish someone a happy Ramadan. It's not out of mean spiritedness. It's out of INTEGRITY.

 

For those who do not know, Muslims believe that Christ's death on the cross was a hoax.    Here's the Quran:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

— Qur'an, surah 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157–158^[

This is out of line.  We are respectful of other people’s views here.

There is no reason that we can not wish each other a good holiday.  You don’t get to decide if it’s ok or not.

Also, you are saying things here that NS never ever said and throwing it under the umbrella of “Muslims believe”.

[etiennep99]

Fine.  We'll let NS speak for himself. He did say, as Muslims say, that the Bible has been purposely altered to fundamentally change the religion. 

I'm getting tired of this thread. As a Christian, I realize that I'm in the minority, and I expect to be viewed in a negative light.   I believe that Jesus

was the nicest man who ever lived; and they killed him.    When you try to speak truth, people will get offended.

 

I'm not here to argue.  I come here for some hockey insight.   I realize that I'm not Mr. Popular here anyhow.  I've made my key points. I'll

try to move along.

Edited April 12, 2020 by etiennep99

[erickompositör72]

3 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

Fine.  We'll let NS speak for himself. He did say, as Muslims say, that the Bible has been purposely altered to fundamentally change the religion. 

I'm getting tired of this thread. As a Christian, I realize that I'm in the minority, and I expect to be viewed in a negative light.   I believe that Jesus

was the nicest man who ever lived; and they killed him.    When you try to speak truth, people will get offended.

 

I'm not here to argue.  I come here for some hockey insight.   I realize that I'm not Mr. Popular here anyhow.  I've made my key points. I'll

try to move along.

Just curious: which version of the Bible do you use?

 

Unless one can read it in it's original language, and refer to the oldest texts, one is [necessarily] basing all of their beliefs off of what other humans tell them it says, not what it actually says.