Pretend GM: If you could get a Lindros-like haul for Dahlin, would you do it?

[#freejame]

  On 4/1/2020 at 10:50 PM, Zamboni said:

Dahlin for Scheifele and a 2021 1st, Not top 10 protected, 2022 2nd. Yea. I’d do that.

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This is among the worst trade proposals in Sabrespace history. 

[Zamboni]

  On 4/1/2020 at 11:55 PM, #freejame said:

This is among the worst trade proposals in Sabrespace history. 

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[Randall Flagg]

It's really hard to even find a team that has a set of assets like Duda, Neo, sweetlou describe.

If I were to guess what Dahlin could get in return today, it's more like two good roster players, a good prospect, and a first. Increase the quality of any of those and you can start to subtract them.

Schenn, Schwartz, Thomas, and a 1st from STL.

Pesce, Teuvo, Necas and a 1st from Carolina. 

Marchessault, Theodore, Glass and a 1st from Vegas

Zibanejad, Buchnevich, Shestyorkin and a 1st from NYR

Domi, Gallagher, that college kid, 1st from Montreal 

This is just wild speculation on my part, I truly have no idea and I'd pay big bucks to hear GMs hash this out as a hypothetical 

 

 

[nfreeman]

I am surprised at the willingness here to trade Dahlin without assurances that anyone in the package becomes what Forsberg became. 

In Dahlin we have the 2nd highest scoring young defenseman of all time, who achieved that distinction for a bottom-level team in his 1st 2 seasons.

There is a real possibility that Dahlin develops into a multiple Norris winner and a generational offensive defenseman.

I’m not giving that up for picks, prospects and an up and down goalie.  

[Eleven]

  On 4/2/2020 at 3:58 AM, nfreeman said:

I am surprised at the willingness here to trade Dahlin without assurances that anyone in the package becomes what Forsberg became. 

In Dahlin we have the 2nd highest scoring young defenseman of all time, who achieved that distinction for a bottom-level team in his 1st 2 seasons.

There is a real possibility that Dahlin develops into a multiple Norris winner and a generational offensive defenseman.

I’m not giving that up for picks, prospects and an up and down goalie.  

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That's why the question is fun.

But the real premise, as I intended it, is a haul similar to the Lindros trade, i.e., sure things.  And I like the answers I see.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Eleven

[That Aud Smell]

  On 4/2/2020 at 3:58 AM, nfreeman said:

I am surprised at the willingness here to trade Dahlin without assurances that anyone in the package becomes what Forsberg became. 

There is a real possibility that Dahlin develops into a multiple Norris winner and a generational offensive defenseman.

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The first piece is where I'm at with the question.

The second piece seems, to me, to be less likely now than it did at the very start of his NHL career. But that's bound to change too. One thing that portends well for him is how obviously, deadly serious he is about becoming a better player.

[matter2003]

  On 4/2/2020 at 12:21 PM, That Aud Smell said:

The first piece is where I'm at with the question.

The second piece seems, to me, to be less likely now than it did at the very start of his NHL career. But that's bound to change too. One thing that portends well for him is how obviously, deadly serious he is about becoming a better player.

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I think I would have to have a very young 1st or 2nd year player who is already lighting it up in the NHL and is a "sure thing" versus a high draft pick.

[Curt]

  On 4/2/2020 at 1:33 PM, matter2003 said:

Forsberg only played in Philly for a year and a half before being traded again to the Preds for Scottie Upshall, a minor league player and 1st and 3rd round picks.  Forsberg in his prime maybe...Forsberg at age 32 when Philly got him, nah...think I will pass

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Peter Forsberg went to Philly later in his career, yes, but that has nothing to  do with what we are talking about right now.  When he was part of the Lindros trade package, he was a prospect playing in Sweden.

[matter2003]

  On 4/2/2020 at 1:39 PM, Curt said:

Peter Forsberg went to Philly later in his career, yes, but that has nothing to  do with what we are talking about right now.  When he was part of the Lindros trade package, he was a prospect playing in Sweden.

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Yeah I realized that after I typed it that he was involved in the huge Lindros trade that sent him to Philly and Forsberg to Quebec at the time...hence why I deleted the post.

[GASabresIUFAN]

How many Cup winners in the last 30 years didn’t have a Norris caliber D man anchoring their D group? (Please excuse name spelling)
Chi - Keith

Pitt - Letang

La - Doughtry

Stl - Petrangelo

Bos - Chara

Det - Lidstrom

Wash - Carlson

ANA - Niedermayer 

NJ - Niedermayer and Stevens 

only the Canes in 06 come to mind, so one team in 30 years.  So let’s trade Dahlin after 2 seasons.  That makes sense. 

 

[Curt]

  On 4/2/2020 at 2:05 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

How many Cup winners in the last 30 years didn’t have a Norris caliber D man anchoring their D group? (Please excuse name spelling)
Chi - Keith

Pitt - Letang

La - Doughtry

Stl - Petrangelo

Bos - Chara

Det - Lidstrom

Wash - Carlson

ANA - Niedermayer 

NJ - Niedermayer and Stevens 

only the Canes in 06 come to mind, so one team in 30 years.  So let’s trade Dahlin after 2 seasons.  That makes sense. 

 

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Only Tampa, Carolina, and maybe Montreal (they had Eric Desjardin, but he was only 23 at the time) have won the Cup without a D with at least multiple top-10 Norris voting finishes, in the past 30 years.

So, 2-3 teams out of 30.

[GASabresIUFAN]

  On 4/2/2020 at 2:37 PM, Curt said:

Only Tampa, Carolina, and maybe Montreal (they had Eric Desjardin, but he was only 23 at the time) have won the Cup without a D with at least multiple top-10 Norris voting finishes, in the past 30 years.

So, 2-3 teams out of 30.

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Tampa had Dan Boyle.  He had 3 top 6 Norris votes and was a 2 time 2nd team all NHL player. I’d say he qualifies. 
That Mon team had both Matt Schneider and Desjardins, while they technically weren’t yet Norris candidates yet they were pretty darn good for young D.

Edited April 2, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

  On 4/2/2020 at 2:05 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

How many Cup winners in the last 30 years didn’t have a Norris caliber D man anchoring their D group? (Please excuse name spelling)
Chi - Keith

Pitt - Letang

La - Doughtry

Stl - Petrangelo

Bos - Chara

Det - Lidstrom

Wash - Carlson

ANA - Niedermayer 

NJ - Niedermayer and Stevens 

only the Canes in 06 come to mind, so one team in 30 years.  So let’s trade Dahlin after 2 seasons.  That makes sense. 

 

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The question wasn't "should we trade Dahlin?" it was "should we trade Dahlin for a Lindros type haul?"

Just to follow from my "approximate values" post, you don't think adding Dubois as a 2C and Anderson as a 1G fixes this team's two biggest holes? That a Alex Turcotte or Trevor Zegras drastically improves our stash of skilled forward prospects? That Mueller and Jones add low-cost depth with some upside?

All for the cost of downgrading Dahlin to a Tyson Barrie level defenceman?

[inkman]

  On 4/2/2020 at 2:05 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

How many Cup winners in the last 30 years didn’t have a Norris caliber D man anchoring their D group? (Please excuse name spelling)
Chi - Keith

Pitt - Letang

La - Doughtry

Stl - Petrangelo

Bos - Chara

Det - Lidstrom

Wash - Carlson

ANA - Niedermayer 

NJ - Niedermayer and Stevens 

only the Canes in 06 come to mind, so one team in 30 years.  So let’s trade Dahlin after 2 seasons.  That makes sense. 

 

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Could the same argument be made about having a bevy of capable forwards and a good to great goalie?  Two things the Sabres are in desperate need of.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

  On 4/2/2020 at 2:58 PM, dudacek said:

The question wasn't "should we trade Dahlin?" it was "should we trade Dahlin for a Lindros type haul?"

Just to follow from my "approximate values" post, you don't think adding Dubois as a 2C and Anderson as a 1G fixes this team's two biggest holes? That a Alex Turcotte or Trevor Zegras drastically improves our stash of skilled forward prospects? That Mueller and Jones add low-cost depth with some upside?

All for the cost of downgrading Dahlin to a Tyson Barrie level defenceman?

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Barrie stinks and that is a huge problem.  Ask Toronto how much they like Barrie.

Your fixing one non hole (Goalie) and swapping one hole (2C) for another (No 1 D).  There are cheaper ways to fix the 2C and the goaltending with out losing your 2nd best player.  Also the trade isn't realistic.    

Don't forget we had the 1C/2C but a crappy defense and where did it get us?  Now we have a good D group and improving goalie (Ullmark) and the only real significant hole is the 2C.  

We have a very good top line (Skinner Jack Sam), 1 to 2 pieces of a 2nd line (VO and Kahun), and a 3rd LW.  We need a 2C, 3C and a 3 RW.  Again, like it or not, Mitts or Cozens is going to be the 3C next year and that is OK, as long as we find a decent to 2C. At some point we are going to have to play our kids.  The 3 RW slots is easily filled with some like Toffoli (or others) on the FA front or allowing Thompson to compete for the job.  That leaves our only real hole at 2C.  I'm not trading Dahlin to fill that hole.  

Ullmark has improved every season and won the NO.1 job this year.  He is an RFA and his career is tracking very similarly to guys like Markstrom.  The need at goalie is for a good backup who can give us solid hockey for 30-35 games; a Marty Biron if you will.

Therefore, I'm not trading Dahlin under any circumstances.  It's terrible asset management because no matter how many warm bodies you get in the deal, the team the trades away the best players always loses the deal.

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

  On 4/2/2020 at 3:22 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Barrie stinks and that is a huge problem.  Ask Toronto how much they like Barrie.

Your fixing one non hole (Goalie) and swapping one hole (2C) for another (No 1 D).  There are cheaper ways to fix the 2C and the goaltending with out losing your 2nd best play.  Also the trade isn't realistic.    

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Barrie doesn't stink. He's a good example of how narrative powers internet conversation. I thought he was overrated as an Av but has become underrated as Leaf fans realized he wasn't as good as they thought. The guy is a legit NHL defenceman with offensive skills and defensive flaws — Montour/Miller-esque.

Goalie is a huge hole. You slide over Dubois, who actually fixes 2C, and on a long-term basis, instead of just patching it. And you are totally ignoring the Zegras/Turcotte element.

The trade isn't realistic. It is fun conversation.

[Stoner]

  On 4/2/2020 at 12:21 PM, That Aud Smell said:

The first piece is where I'm at with the question.

The second piece seems, to me, to be less likely now than it did at the very start of his NHL career. But that's bound to change too. One thing that portends well for him is how obviously, deadly serious he is about becoming a better player.

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Wouldn't "obviously serious" about getting better describe virtually ever player out there? I think the key word is "deadly." What makes you think he is deadly serious about getting better? More than the average young player. Because he doesn't smile, joke around, celebrate goals or even smirk at cat goalkeeper videos?

Edited April 2, 2020 by PASabreFan

[dudacek]

I generally agree with the best player theory in trades.

But warm bodies is not how I would describe Dubois and Zegras (or Anderson or Barrie for that matter).

And it is no guarantee Dahlin will end up being the best player in the deal. I think he will be. I thought Lindros was going to be too.

[Stoner]

No Lindros haul is coming for Dahlin. I can almost guarantee that the estimation of Dahlin by the typical Buffalo Sabres internet poster is higher than that of the typical NHL GM. Plus, Botterill is a soft touch in a position of tremendous weakness. GMs would be glad to take Dahlin off his hands, but the offer won't be historic.

Anywho, Terry would never approve it. Because, boy, can that kid skate.

Edited April 2, 2020 by PASabreFan

[Eleven]

  On 4/2/2020 at 4:09 PM, PASabreFan said:

No Lindros haul is coming for Dahlin. I can almost guarantee that the estimation of Dahlin by the typical Buffalo Sabres internet poster is higher than that of the typical NHL GM. Plus, Botterill is a soft touch in a position of tremendous weakness. GMs would be glad to take Dahlin off his hands, but the offer won't be historic.

Anywho, Terry would never approve it. Because, boy, can that kid skate.

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Not that this has anything to do with the point of the exercise (which is to relieve boredom and talk hockey), but Botterill in no way is in more of a position of weakness than Quebec was when it traded Lindros.  Lindros had publicly stated that he never would play for Quebec, and had successfully used that same ploy earlier in his career, when he refused to play for Soo and was traded to Oshawa.  Quebec had no leverage whatsoever and still received two competing, and heavy, bids.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Eleven

[Weave]

I am convinced that GA isn’t watching the same team and prospects that I am watching.  I’m sure one of us isn’t paying attention to the Buffalo Sabres, but I’m not sure if it is him or me.

[Stoner]

I served with Eric Lindros, I knew Eric Lindros, Eric Lindros was a friend of mine...

[Curt]

  On 4/2/2020 at 2:43 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Tampa had Dan Boyle.  He had 3 top 6 Norris votes and was a 2 time 2nd team all NHL player. I’d say he qualifies. 
That Mon team had both Matt Schneider and Desjardins, while they technically weren’t yet Norris candidates yet they were pretty darn good for young D.

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I didn’t remember Boyle being THAT good, but you are right.

[Kristian]

Yes. The Sabres are made up of 50% AHL caliber players.

In a perfect world we wouldn’t make that deal, but with the current team? Yes.

Only problem is JBott would probably bring 3rd and 4th liners ?

[French Collection]

  On 4/2/2020 at 4:35 PM, Curt said:

I didn’t remember Boyle being THAT good, but you are right.

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Some of his best years were in San Jose.