The Resilience of th American People

[Ogre]

With regards to the prior censorship; I have been invited to share my thoughts here. I sincerely hope that I what I have to say will be left to stand, as the tone will be kept civil(as it was in the post that was deleted) and the intention will be from the heart. It's no secret that I am a long-time, high profile member of a Labor Union. I come from a very poor family that gave so much to a community that had less than they did. My mother watched 12-15 children at any one time while their parents worked to buy food/secure housing. She did it for $1/kid as a service to our community. My father was a certified mechanic yet drove truck because he could make more money that way. He always had someone's car in the yard though, fixing it for the price of parts and a few dollars for himself. He couldn't bring himself to collect the going rate because these were people that were struggling too. It didn't seem right and he wasn't going to do it no matter how far it set him behind. They both worked so hard and still managed to raise 5 sons without an ounce of public support. Pride! They both died with nothing but God's love, just how they came into this world. They were the true American hero. I dedicated my life and every spare breath to this Union when I realized the vessel that it is to lift people out of poverty and give them a voice in their lives. I became involved. I became a student of Labor history to better teach my course on the history of the Ironworkers. It was in the course of that study that I realized who the REAL heroes of our American past are, not the JP Morgans and the Andrew Carnegies, but the types like Mother Jones, who's big mouth I have modeled my professional career after, who NEVER stopped advocating for the working person. From her deathbed even! Here is her final recorded words from 100 years old. Such a history! Such a woman! Such an American hero! She got results. When she spoke, people listened. 

People like her and Samuel Gompers were larger than life. They took chances and refused to be deaf to the voices of the workers who were suffering the stresses of low pay and long hours. They believed the hungry should be fed and that the homeless should be housed. They believed in the American worker. They understood that the engine behind every great company was the men and women doing the labor with the unmatched productivity that the American worker had then and that we as American workers still have to this day. Our prowess is unmatched in the world. Those early leaders in Labor saw how the average citizens' lives were suppressed by corporate greed. That ugly word "Greed" is a constant of the human condition and those early leaders sought an avenue that could survive the tests of time to provide a weapon to fight the injustice that greed creates. The eight hour day, overtime pay, weekends; all brought to you by Organized Labor and the relentless efforts of Mother Jones and the like.

 What, I ask, did the airlines do with the bail out in 2008? They cashed that welfare check written by the American taxpayer and bought up stock in their own companies. Let them sell off that stock and weather this storm like the average worker. If an airline or cruise line goes under, isn't that just the market forces of capitalism at play? The current company goes down but the need for the service doesn't disappear so some other entrepreneur steps in and fills the vacuum(hopefully with a more successful business model). Why is giving government money to a citizen "socialism" and giving government money to industry NOT socialism? If we define socialism properly as the government controlling industry instead of the markets doing so, then why isn't the government's money going to industry the act that gets labeled as socialism? The idea of corporations paying a higher tax to provide for more social programs would be more accurately defined as "compassionate capitalism". The idea that corporations need the worker and should play a bigger role in the care of those workers. Eliminate the greed. There is plenty to go around and still have multi millionaires driving innovation. Instead of giving $850 billion to industry, why not give it to the American citizen to spend on those industries that are shuttered for now, when they reopen? The American citizen could continue paying their taxes (so the government still has an income) and their monthly bills so THOSE industries don't need to be bailed out as well. Instead of beating our collective heads against the wall trying to make the failed Reagan era idea of trickle down economics work, why don't we put our collective heads together to try a NEW economy? What say we give trickle up economics a try for a while and see what else capitalism is good for besides creating an oligarchy? Let's see what sort of compassion the American heroes, like my mother and father were, are capable of when they are able to live a long prosperous life, like the one my parents never got to see on this Earth. I mean no disrespect to opposing philosophies but we HAVE been trying it for an awful long time with very limited results at times. I hope you are all well and I thank you for listening to all that I have to say. I hope you take it as food for thought.

[SABRES 0311]

I do not like the idea of bailing out banks and businesses. In my mind it’s like the banker giving you an extra 500 in Monopoly. Unfair to the other players.

 Its not the system that’s wrong it’s how some people abuse it. Does that mean we have to change the system? I bet if we did people will find new ways of abusing it. 

My profession comes down to two points; mission accomplishment and troop welfare. You have to take care of those subordinate to you because without them the job doesn’t get done.

[triumph_communes]

Everyone’s a socialist during a pandemic. Trump/Republicans are out there proposing cash checks for every organ sack in addition to airplane bailouts. Why not both?

[Ogre]

This video isn't the one I use in practice but it is good none the less. It got my eyes all juicy.  No one learns this stuff in school. The American worker has had a tragic history. Mother Jones=American hero.

 

Also, I missed an E in the "the" before American People in the thread title. I'm sorry,  I'm rolling with one hand so I'm surprised that is the least of my typing errors. 

[LTS]

So much to respond to and no time to do so.

My father was in a labor union. It's because of his experiences with that union and how it impacted our family that I despise them today.  They HAD a purpose when we did not have a global economy.  In today's world, someone with far less in another part of the world will do the same work, for less.  The reality is that the work will move.  During the 80's and 90's when I really came into an understanding of how his union operated, I saw this trend hit hard.

The newer workers loved the concept of making excellent wages and also some generous work rules.  As such, they were implicitly lazy.  Sure the job was hard work, when they worked, but they had a lot of time off as well.  It should have been a red flag to anyone in the business that the need to shut down lines because global sales were down that hard times were coming.  The economics demanded of the union did not support the competition from global competitors.  Adapt or die.  The union fought incessantly against it and we ended up on strike often.  Times were tough then.. go picket but don't get paid.  Ultimately the union had to concede because they had no power.  The company meanwhile was planning to move overseas anyway. So they would give just enough to keep the lights on until such day that boom.

Thankfully my father was able to retire during one of those negotiations.  But the refusal of the Union to recognize a global economy and its impact led us to hard times.  These days China, and other countries, are seeing their workers impacted much like the US worker was in the pictures/video you've posted above.  Some day, perhaps, the overall working conditions will improve, but they are not operating under the same government structures or social ideals.  It's hard to say.  

All I can post at this point in time.

[Weave]

19 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Everyone’s a socialist during a pandemic. Trump/Republicans are out there proposing cash checks for every organ sack in addition to airplane bailouts. Why not both?

Corporations can borrow against their assets at minimal interest rates.  Other than a very select few, people don’t have that option.  I have no issue with peoples tax money being used to buoy actual people.

[Ogre]

3 hours ago, LTS said:

They HAD a purpose when we did not have a global economy.  In today's world, someone with far less in another part of the world will do the same work, for less.

Labor Unions, just like anything else man made, are not perfect. I've been a member for a loooooong time. I've seen it. Nepotism was rampant and seriously hurt the public image of what a Union is and restricted the democratic process used to reach decisions. Dad(the business manger) wants this vote to go this way so let's get all of our buddies to go to the meeting tonight. I'm a first and only generation Union member. I worked my way up the ranks and stomp out nepotism like a forest fire when it tries to creep in.  It's tough to respond to the exact troubles your dad had because I don't know what Union your father was a member of. The manufacturing Unions in particular failed to recognize that globalization was going to change the way their businesses operated. They refused to acknowledge that their jobs were going overseas and(most likely due to that nepotism) failed miserably. Having said that though, don't you hold an equal responsibility on management? Sure they were getting cheap labor over there, but they knew the people doing the work were being abused. In aid to save a buck they condoned the mistreatment of workers. There's enough shame for BOTH sides that they couldn't meet in the middle. As far as Labor Unions needing to be conciliatory to keep their jobs on American soil, I don't buy it. The hands on work of construction and service industries can't be outsourced and the potential for abuse of those workers is very real. An example? The Hardrock hotel collapse in NO was a non-union contractor that was cutting corners on material, safety and employing people in the country illegally(my point with this is that there is no possible way they were properly trained). When the Union contractor working down the street shut down his job and brought his cranes over to the scene, he was turned away by the non-union contractor. We still have families mourning a loved one who's body is still in the wreck of a building. Unions have their problems(like everything does) but you would see a massive increase in worker fatalities in this country without them. Having said that, you can rest well knowing the Ironworkers work WITH a contractors. We reserve the muscle for those that won't  abide by the rules of engagement agreed on by both parties.

 

3 hours ago, LTS said:

The union fought incessantly against it

The voting members fought against it. "The union" is the active membership. Sounds like your dad understood the ramifications. Adapt or die. Again, blame should be diffused. When a Union member lets nepotism exist in their ranks, then they really can't blame an outside source for their problems. People get comfortable and don't want to rock a boat they feel safe in when long-term longevity, and not sinking that boat, is the goal they should aspire to. The complacent were at fault, not the idea of freedom a Union inspires.

3 hours ago, LTS said:

These days China, and other countries, are seeing their workers impacted much like the US worker was in the pictures/video you've posted above

I'm really glad you mentioned this. It is absolutely true. Again, I'd like to defer blame to the corporations that are putting profit before life and dignity. Here we have an a opportunity to revisit compassionate capitalism and its potential to improve the human condition. There is plenty of blame to hand out in the abuse of those overseas workers. I'll add consumers hungry for cheap goods and politicians failing to recognize or care that they were damning those workers by not acting with legislation to check those corporations from being able make profits on the back of human misery. I suspect globalization and the transfer of our Union philosophies would eventually have the same impact that it did on a very young United States. The money is there to share a lot more equitably with enough potential for individual wealth to inspire innovation just fine. 

[LTS]

Without going into too much I can say that I agree with you.

The problem is that a Union is often looked at as the appropriate response to corrupt business but much like in politics, Unions also become corrupt and amoral.  It's the greed of the company versus the greed of the Union.  Who gets to be greedy?

You'd love for corporations to have some level of compassion for those they employ. Unfortunately the leadership of a  corporation is responsible to the board.  The board is responsible to the shareholders and the shareholders want their damn money.  They are so far removed from any of the impacts that it doesn't matter to them if someone is getting killed every other day.  Pair that with people in the US looking at the cheap goods and thinking, who cares if someone is getting killed every other day. It's not someone I know.

We know all about animal abuse on farms, people abuse in other countries, and yet the vast majority of people keep on buying the products because if they don't have to see it, it's not their problem.

You can put your garbage anywhere you'd like, except my backyard.

Globalizaton of unions would be an interesting concept.  Do you foresee that working in China?  It worked in the US because of our culture and courts. I think it might be a harder achievement in China.  I'm not saying it shouldn't happen.

As for the phrase "the money is there to share a lot more equitably with enough potential for individual wealth to inspire innovation just fine"... I cringe when I read it. Someone/ some group has to draw that line of what is "too much".  The entire process to define that point is a great target for corruption.  It also would need some rules, what do you consider in accounting for the individual wealth?  Is it property?  What if the company owns the property and the CEO just gets to live on it?  The loopholes.. they could make our heads spin.

 

[Ogre]

2 hours ago, LTS said:

Globalizaton of unions would be an interesting concept.  Do you foresee that working in China?

Unions are the last thing that any communist regime wants to deal with. Communists sell themselves as the worker's party but in reality they are a control party. The collective bargaining power of a Union counters the Communist party's need to control all facets of society. Does a communist leader offer up free elections? When my three year term is done and I am nominated again for my office I will have to sign an affidavit that I am not currently, nor have I been within the last ten years, a member of the communist party. To directly address your question now, YES! YES I DO! Every single human being alive today is exactly the same. They would all love to feel secure and have a voice. I'll use the problems that Hershey had with the chocolate workers striking in 1937 as an example. Hershey provided what he felt was a utopian existence with a comfortable living, entertainment, spiritual needs. Some people didn't mind but others became frustrated with every facet of their lives being controlled by the Board. They wanted a higher level of freedom and control over their lives. They went on strike to change the lack of choice in their town. The dairy farmers, because they had milk rotting on their farms, got involved and violence ensued. Milton turned his back on the whole scene hoping the farmers would teach the workers a lesson. It back fired on Milton though.

In order for a Labor Union to succeed in China it would require a change in regime. As much as Labor Unions reject globalization, I support it. The short term pain it may bring would be balanced in the end with all workers around the world realizing a comparable standard of living, defanging the bite of corporate greed(I like your description as shareholder greed better). I don't know though. We would have to convince the entire base of American consumers to pay a few more dollars for a product that was built by justly compensated labor or convince our elected leaders to build legislation that would restrict products sold in the US from being produced without worker protections in place. I hope for the prior and doubt like hell we will ever get to the latter. I'm hoping this problem we are facing now will open the average American's eyes to the injustices that are being perpetrated on the worlds workers. I'm hoping that a good dose of hardship will changes minds and hearts and we will all demand products that are made humanely(anybody buying Nike products ever again?). Who knows, the anti-996 movement in China seems to be gaining steam. I'd like to hope that the Chinese worker could do what the American worker did but I remember that tank running that dude being run over in Tiananmen Square. The communists are extreme but that was before globalization started.  China has become reliant on manufacturing so if the world's consumers demanded change, it would happen. Let's hope for their workers' fates, and the fate of the American worker, that we can get there. Let's have a true look at capitalism when it can't rely on cheap dispensable labor for profit and the merits of management are the driving force behind profit. Can you imagine a world where the livelihood of the CEO was dictated by performance? I'm willing to do my part.

 

(Can you guess which party I sided with in The Outer Worlds??)

[LTS]

16 hours ago, Ogre said:

Unions are the last thing that any communist regime wants to deal with. Communists sell themselves as the worker's party but in reality they are a control party. The collective bargaining power of a Union counters the Communist party's need to control all facets of society. Does a communist leader offer up free elections? When my three year term is done and I am nominated again for my office I will have to sign an affidavit that I am not currently, nor have I been within the last ten years, a member of the communist party. To directly address your question now, YES! YES I DO! Every single human being alive today is exactly the same. They would all love to feel secure and have a voice. I'll use the problems that Hershey had with the chocolate workers striking in 1937 as an example. Hershey provided what he felt was a utopian existence with a comfortable living, entertainment, spiritual needs. Some people didn't mind but others became frustrated with every facet of their lives being controlled by the Board. They wanted a higher level of freedom and control over their lives. They went on strike to change the lack of choice in their town. The dairy farmers, because they had milk rotting on their farms, got involved and violence ensued. Milton turned his back on the whole scene hoping the farmers would teach the workers a lesson. It back fired on Milton though.

In order for a Labor Union to succeed in China it would require a change in regime. As much as Labor Unions reject globalization, I support it. The short term pain it may bring would be balanced in the end with all workers around the world realizing a comparable standard of living, defanging the bite of corporate greed(I like your description as shareholder greed better). I don't know though. We would have to convince the entire base of American consumers to pay a few more dollars for a product that was built by justly compensated labor or convince our elected leaders to build legislation that would restrict products sold in the US from being produced without worker protections in place. I hope for the prior and doubt like hell we will ever get to the latter. I'm hoping this problem we are facing now will open the average American's eyes to the injustices that are being perpetrated on the worlds workers. I'm hoping that a good dose of hardship will changes minds and hearts and we will all demand products that are made humanely(anybody buying Nike products ever again?). Who knows, the anti-996 movement in China seems to be gaining steam. I'd like to hope that the Chinese worker could do what the American worker did but I remember that tank running that dude being run over in Tiananmen Square. The communists are extreme but that was before globalization started.  China has become reliant on manufacturing so if the world's consumers demanded change, it would happen. Let's hope for their workers' fates, and the fate of the American worker, that we can get there. Let's have a true look at capitalism when it can't rely on cheap dispensable labor for profit and the merits of management are the driving force behind profit. Can you imagine a world where the livelihood of the CEO was dictated by performance? I'm willing to do my part.

 

(Can you guess which party I sided with in The Outer Worlds??)

1st bolded - this is why I don't think it will happen.  China, as it currently stands, would not let it happen.

2nd bolded - people do buy Nike products.. all the time.  They will continue.

3rd bolded - I agree, the problem is that there are never enough consumers demanding change.  The other problem is that if China improved conditions the next country over might want all that investment from the businesses.  The government leaders happy to look the other way as corporations line their pockets and trample their people.

4th bolded - despite popular opinion, CEO performance is a factor.  The performance of the stock is critical to their livelihood.  People get bent over a CEO having a golden parachuts and all that.. it's like getting a no trade clause in hockey.  Someone wants your skills bad enough, they'll give you what you want.

Your initial story is an excellent example of how things can and do work in the US.  My problem is that these days, it's very different because of globalization.

[triumph_communes]

Power corrupts absolutely.

It's not a story of 'corporations bad' or 'unions bad'.  They are both good until they are bad.  Just like governments, unions need to be able to quickly and freely form. but also disband once the objective is done.  Yeah, you might say 'well that means unions will never be as organized as management', but that's overlooking how powerful striking is as a negotiation tool.  

If you want to give unions more power, stop outsourcing.  That's what's been undermining the US worker more than anything for the last thirty+ years.  Opening up to China and NAFTA, etc. is the problem.  And the average worker understands this and is why Trump's 'oh god he's so racist' policies get the cult following despite the 'downsides'.

[Weave]

19 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Power corrupts absolutely.

It's not a story of 'corporations bad' or 'unions bad'.  They are both good until they are bad.  Just like governments, unions need to be able to quickly and freely form. but also disband once the objective is done.  Yeah, you might say 'well that means unions will never be as organized as management', but that's overlooking how powerful striking is as a negotiation tool.  

If you want to give unions more power, stop outsourcing.  That's what's been undermining the US worker more than anything for the last thirty+ years.  Opening up to China and NAFTA, etc. is the problem.  And the average worker understands this and is why Trump's 'oh god he's so racist' policies get the cult following despite the 'downsides'.

The dirty little secret that’s never been touched is, outsourcing to domestic contract agencies and service providers have done just as much to undermine the American worker as outsourcing manufacturing to low wage countries.

It used to be that a gig in the auto industry, defense industry, and aerospace was an enviable gig for a white collar worker and on the floor technical people, but around 1990 all of those industries went to a model that let go direct hire employees and replaced them with employees from contract agencies and contracted technical service companies. Wages and benefits in those situations are a fraction of what they were for direct hire employees.  And it’s quite widespread.  
 

And its never been discussed at any meaningful level.

[triumph_communes]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

The dirty little secret that’s never been touched is, outsourcing to domestic contract agencies and service providers have done just as much to undermine the American worker as outsourcing manufacturing to low wage countries.

It used to be that a gig in the auto industry, defense industry, and aerospace was an enviable gig for a white collar worker and on the floor technical people, but around 1990 all of those industries went to a model that let go direct hire employees and replaced them with employees from contract agencies and contracted technical service companies. Wages and benefits in those situations are a fraction of what they were for direct hire employees.  And it’s quite widespread.  
 

And its never been discussed at any meaningful level.

Fair to bring that up. But if we weren’t competing with countries with zero labor laws then I don’t think the competitive pressure would exist that makes temp/staffing agencies a necessary evil. 

Edited March 20, 2020 by triumph_communes

[Weave]

3 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Fair to bring that up. But if we weren’t competing with countries with zero labor laws then I don’t think the competitive pressure would exist that makes temp/staffing agencies a necessary evil. 

You assume that compassionate capitalism would prevail without global pressures?  I won't.

More realistic, IMO, is that the rise of T. Boone Pickens and "Shareholder Rights" is what led us down the path of cutting employees off.  We didn't see these kinds of things until Pickens showed the world that stock prices and dividends could go through the roof with heavy cost cutting measures including substituting direct hire employees for contract labor.  His battle cry of shareholder rights and shareholder value is still corporate-speak today.  And his methods are still in common usage.  You want to explore the movement to outsourced labor, do some research on Mr. Pickens' tactics.  He forced boards to cut costs under the threat of hostile takeover, and in the process led a movement towards short term share value over long term performance.

 

Actually, that's not quite right.  We've seen plenty of pre-1980's examples of the worlds capitalists take advantage of those that work for them.  Thinking Robber Barons and the lead up to the union movement.  Employers taking advantage of their employees as much as they can legally is as old as capitalism itself.  Really, the only period of relief from it was during the union era, now that I think about it.

IMO we're entering the second era of the Robber Baron.

Edited March 20, 2020 by Weave