Updated: Pegulas and arena/hospitality workers

[Hank]

32 minutes ago, Ogre said:

And they’re ALL hiring. Every single one of them. It’s a matter of the ranking process as I’ve described. The fact that the two you reference were ranked higher due to prior training only proves MY point, that it isn’t as easy and there are far more hurtles than you care to acknowledge. 

What prior training? They went to a trade school. Anyone with a GED can do it. It's not hard. 

I use a LE31MP for the three processes. Three, not four, as flux core IS MIG with a flux core wire. If you're unfamiliar with the machine I'd be happy to walk you through it. 

[Ogre]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

LE31MP for the three processes.

MP stands for multiple process. That machine was designed to do that, it is unique and specialized and comes with a VERY specialized price. By all means, walk me through it. How does it compare to a Lincoln k1297? That is a SMAW machine that CAN’T run all the processes. You tell me why. I know why but I’m guessing you don’t. 

 

1 hour ago, Hank said:

1 hour ago, Ogre said:

 

What prior training? They went to a trade school. Anyone with a GED can do it. It's

The trade school was the prior training. NOW they are prioritized in an apprenticeship program. So with the four years of apprenticeship training and, how many years of trade school, they will finally be able to earn that decent living that we both seem to agree a Union trade brings. 

 

1 hour ago, Hank said:

It's not hard. 

You’re full of *****. I’ve asked for proof of several unconfirmed statements by you and you stick to what you know(or think you know) and dodge around the unanswered. I’m officially done with you. You’ve done more than enough make everyone else’s argument for them and expose your lack of knowledge. There really is nothing else that can be accomplished here.

[Ogre]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

flux core IS MIG with a flux core wire

*shakes his head* 

Flux core wire is totally different from mig wire. The flux that provides the shielding gas is at the core of the flux wire. It has entirely different properties. While all mig machines can be configured to run flux core, not all flux core machines can run mig. If it is going to run flux core then the smooth mig drive wheel needs to be switched out for a knurled wheel or the wire won’t feed to the tweco. Like I said, I appreciate you bringing up welding but it is a little disrespectful to fail to acknowledge that there may be a higher level of welding that you are just not familiar with. I’ll wait as long as needed for you to explain how that MP machine is able to do that while the standard SMAW machine is NOT. BTW, I’m very familiar with MP machines. I even own one. I don’t use it as often because I also have a separate machine for each process that I keep set up for THAT process so I’m not constantly swapping out parts. Congrats on getting two people in the door to a Union trade though. You can be assured that they will be receiving the advanced level of training that a trade school can not provide.

[SwampD]

Ogre, I think you are being trolled. Go enjoy the day.

[Stoner]

12 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Ogre, I think you are being trolled. Go enjoy the day.

Hank doesn't troll. Again we have this stupid word coming up when there's a disagreement. Disagree? Troll. Agree? Thumbs up.

Edited March 15, 2020 by PASabreFan

[Weave]

2 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Hank doesn't troll. Again we have this stuff word coming up when there's a disagreement. Disagree? Troll. Agree? Thumbs up.

That's just like, your agenda, man.

[SwampD]

13 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Hank doesn't troll. Again we have this stupid word coming up when there's a disagreement. Disagree? Troll. Agree? Thumbs up.

There’s a difference between disagreeing and being a dick about it. I’d be happy to walk you through it.

 

 

See what I did there?

[Zamboni]

Just now, SwampD said:

There’s a difference between disagreeing and being a dick about it. I’d be happy to walk you through it.

 

 

See what I did there?

Or is that passive aggressive? Because what you typed, what Ogre typed, what Hank typed, can be called a few things. But trolling isn’t one of them. IMO.

[SwampD]

....aaaand, I just stopped caring.

[Hank]

36 minutes ago, Ogre said:

*shakes his head* 

Flux core wire is totally different from mig wire. 

No ***** it's a different wire! I've said that twice. It's still the same ***** process. All you do is take two minutes to swap out the spools. It's a fact you can't dispute. 

The apprenticeship at the local I mentioned is ONE year, not the FOUR that you pulled out of your ass. Call them and ask. 

All you need is a GED to enroll in a welding program. Fact. Call any trade school that offers it and ask. 

You disputed that I could do all the processes on one machine. I showed you the machine I use and your reply was to tell me what you use that Can't do it. Not my fault I use better machines than your employer provides, get pissy with them about it. 

33 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Ogre, I think you are being trolled. Go enjoy the day.

No. Everything I've posted regarding welding is factual and can be verified through a Google search, with the possible exception of the referenced local regarding length of apprenticeship which could take a phone call if it can't be found on the website. I'm more knowledgeable than he assumed and use better equipment than he does, and he's being pissy. 

[Weave]

8 minutes ago, SwampD said:

....aaaand, I just stopped caring.

I think that is an early Corona virus symptom.

#notenoughteststofindout

[nfreeman]

Let's chill out a bit in here please.

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Let's chill out a bit in here please.

Ok.  I'm done. 

[Ogre]

Just so everyone not named Hank can walk away with accurate info, the FCAW process and the GMAW process(mig) are not the same. 
https://prezi.com/t5xnrs_t_xtk/the-differences-between-fcaw-and-gmaw/

43 minutes ago, Hank said:

FOUR that you pulled out of your ass.

My apprentices train four years. One ENTIRE year of welding. 

 

29 minutes ago, Hank said:

I'm done. 

You were done soon after you started.

[Ogre]

BTW, the reason a multiple process machine can do what it does is because it has an IGBT. An isolated gate bipolar transistor. It’s a ceramic semi conductor that does the work of the inverter(inverting the alternating side of the sine wave) and the rectifier(stacking those sine waves into something useable). If you were to crack open the case on an IGBT machine it would look eerily empty. The large coils that did the work before are replaced by a tiny semi conductor leaving a whole lot of extra space for the necessary components for the other processes. I never disputed that it wasn’t possible. In fact I asserted that any SMAW machine could power all the other processes, with extra equipment, which the IGBT provides the extra space for. If you are in fact teaching in a trade school then you OWE it to the students to educate yourself about this stuff so you can deliver it to the students. But now you know so please pass the info along.

[Neo]

Well, friends squabbling isn't a good thing, and I’m as black as any kettle.  Setting that aside ...

I was enjoying the knowledge based back and forth.  My gut has always held the trades in the same regard as the degrees, often higher.

Welding ...  knowledge, artistry and craftsmanship.  Who knew?  We all did.

Edit to add, while social distancing ...

I was raised by bricklayers and steelworkers.  As a young boy, I scurried to the refrigerator in our South Buffalo garage, fetching Schmidt’s bottles for my grandparents and great uncles.  I listened to them “build and pour”.  They were larger than life.  Demi-Gods.  I remember watching them do magic with their hands.  They made reluctant toasters “toast” and disinterested washers “wash”.  Thick fingers and gnarled hands that brought things back to life.  My grandfather built small, fragile, model cars and ships with me, using those same hands.  Actually, he built for me.  I mostly sat, as much mesmerized as anything else.

Culver Road, South Buffalo, craftsman and homemakers.  I am one lucky son of a gun.

Later, I would do well in school.  Science, math, and literature they said.  I listened and did what was expected of me.  I have no regrets, life’s good.  I do wonder, though, what  life would be had I picked up a brick.  I’ve wondered for years ...

Edited March 16, 2020 by Neo

[Hank]

33 minutes ago, Ogre said:

Just so everyone not named Hank can walk away with accurate info, the FCAW process and the GMAW process(mig) are not the same. 
https://prezi.com/t5xnrs_t_xtk/the-differences-between-fcaw-and-gmaw/

My apprentices train four years. One ENTIRE year of welding. 

 

You were done soon after you started.

Again, as I said upthread, MIG uses an 80% argon mix as a shielding gas. The "flux" IS the shielding gas and comes on the wire, just like the 6010 and 7018 rods you use in stick welding. The application process is the exact same, which is much different than stick, and much different than TIG. You know that. 

I would have no possible way of knowing how long an apprenticeship would be at YOUR specific job that entails much more than welding. I was referencing a pipe fitter local, but you knew that too. 

[Ogre]

10 minutes ago, Hank said:

ike the 6010 and 7018 rods you use in stick welding. The application process is the exact same,

It isn’t though but I’m running out of gas to get through to you.  6010 runs on straight polarity and  7018 runs on reverse polarity. So you’re either flipping the polarity switch or, if the machine is not equipped, swapping ground and stinger. 6010 runs on waaay less amps and in most industry settings, 60 series rods are not used. Ironworkers use 60 series on deck welding and pipe fitters use it for root pass in any non-backed weld. Like a pipe. We wouldn’t use it for root because our welds need to meet seismic standards and 60 series rod is only good for 60,000 lbs/square inch where 7018 is good for 70,000 lbs/square inch. Entirely different methods for root pass application and for  drawing out the weld pool too. I would have to know all of this and document it if I were writing a weld procedure(which I am sometimes required to do). I would have to note that I used a different process. See?

 

24 minutes ago, Hank said:

I was referencing a pipe fitter local, but you knew that too. 

I did. I know all of their trainers as well. We collaborate at times.(psssst, they have a four year program too). Look dude. I’ve been doing this for close to 30 years. I probably have spent 600 hours of my time in classrooms over the years not to mention the countless hours of my fun time learning everything that I can to be the best GD trainer that I can. I care about the other poor schlubs trickling out a living. That extends beyond my trade. I’m well known by many tradesmen just by virtue of my OSHA trainer duties. Why wouldn’t you want to listen to what I have to say? At the very least, why wouldn’t you have at least approached me with a better level of civility? You attack me and attempt to be condescending with the attempts to suggest that I don’t understand what’s going on in the machine and offer to walk me through it, and when I say “OK”, so that I can assess YOU’RE understanding, you defer. Look. You’re welds might look pretty, or they might be gorilla welds for all I know. I’m not going to dispute or contest that. When we are getting technical, though, I’m going to go all in because I am MORE than ready. I worked my GD ass off and am willing to share what I’ve learned to help people, not judge them for finding themselves in a particular situation at a particular time in their life. Now, I’m done too. My serious congratulations on getting people into our programs.

[Ogre]

1 hour ago, Neo said:

do wonder, though, what  life would be had I picked up a brick.

Mother *****in hard!

[Hank]

23 minutes ago, Ogre said:

It isn’t though but I’m running out of gas to get through to you.  6010 runs on straight polarity and  7018 runs on reverse polarity. So you’re either flipping the polarity switch or, if the machine is not equipped, swapping ground and stinger. 6010 runs on waaay less amps and in most industry settings, 60 series rods are not used. Ironworkers use 60 series on deck welding and pipe fitters use it for root pass in any non-backed weld. Like a pipe. We wouldn’t use it for root because our welds need to meet seismic standards and 60 series rod is only good for 60,000 lbs/square inch where 7018 is good for 70,000 lbs/square inch. Entirely different methods for root pass application and for  drawing out the weld pool too. I would have to know all of this and document it if I were writing a weld procedure(which I am sometimes required to do). I would have to note that I used a different process. See?

 

I did. I know all of their trainers as well. We collaborate at times.(psssst, they have a four year program too). Look dude. I’ve been doing this for close to 30 years. I probably have spent 600 hours of my time in classrooms over the years not to mention the countless hours of my fun time learning everything that I can to be the best GD trainer that I can. I care about the other poor schlubs trickling out a living. That extends beyond my trade. I’m well known by many tradesmen just by virtue of my OSHA trainer duties. Why wouldn’t you want to listen to what I have to say? At the very least, why wouldn’t you have at least approached me with a better level of civility? You attack me and attempt to be condescending with the attempts to suggest that I don’t understand what’s going on in the machine and offer to walk me through it, and when I say “OK”, so that I can assess YOU’RE understanding, you defer. Look. You’re welds might look pretty, or they might be gorilla welds for all I know. I’m not going to dispute or contest that. When we are getting technical, though, I’m going to go all in because I am MORE than ready. I worked my GD ass off and am willing to share what I’ve learned to help people, not judge them for finding themselves in a particular situation at a particular time in their life. Now, I’m done too. My serious congratulations on getting people into our programs.

I think maybe we're just talking past each other. There factors to consider when deciding to use flux or MIG, such as weather/environment. If you're incorporating that when you talk about process, than you're correct. Once the machine is set up, the application process for the filler metal is the same, which is what I'm referring to. 

6010 and 7018 are just rods, the run on the same polarity. I know you know that because it's as basic as it gets. I know it's difficult to infer context(thanks Eleven!?) through text but I don't mean that in a condescending way. I know you're intelligent and knowledgeable. That's why I think we're talking past each other. Things are getting muddled. 

 

[Stoner]

I've heard of nerd fights. I'm not sure what this one is.

[Neo]

31 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I've heard of nerd fights. I'm not sure what this one is.

Never call a welder “nerd”.

[LTS]

11 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

The bolded is what I've been trying to get across in my posts. Those people shouldn't be dumped on just because of their job status and/or position in life especially without knowing their situation at all. It may just be a temporary job to hold them over for better times and are at least making an attempt to support themselves. I also agree that some life choices along the way possibly could have been better but that could also be considered hindsight. Myself, sure I regret some of the choices I've made over the years but even some of the bad choices I don't regret because they've let to some fond memories, happiness within myself and others, and looking back some choices weren't nearly as bad as once was thought.

Some menial jobs and moreso the people whom perform them are looked down upon as if they are low-life losers who don't want to better themselves when that may be the farthest from the truth. Those jobs are sometimes more important than much higher paying jobs.

Just think....in a crisis like this virus, who would you consider more important, a sales manager with a six figure income or the janitor who takes pride in his work cleaning a hospital room making near minimum wage, or a bricklayer with a good income? I hope you don't choose the bricklayers sales manager just because he could build you a wall.

I've never been one to define who is more important.  Balance is the key.  The perfectly natural opposition statement to your question is that the janitor doesn't have a job if the sales manager is not out there earning revenue for the company.  So in a time of crisis they'd both be unemployed and equally ineffective.  

By and large I don't think people push themselves very hard.  Some do and succeed greatly, some do and never seem to get very far. It's a mix.

All I know is that I now know a crap ton more about welding than I did 24 hours ago.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

14 hours ago, LTS said:

I've never been one to define who is more important.  Balance is the key.  The perfectly natural opposition statement to your question is that the janitor doesn't have a job if the sales manager is not out there earning revenue for the company.  So in a time of crisis they'd both be unemployed and equally ineffective.  

By and large I don't think people push themselves very hard.  Some do and succeed greatly, some do and never seem to get very far. It's a mix.

All I know is that I now know a crap ton more about welding than I did 24 hours ago.

But what about the janitor at the hospital? The hospital will obviously stay open and rooms need to be disinfected.

[bunomatic]

23 hours ago, Weave said:

That's just like, your agenda, man.

Dude !