Updated: Pegulas and arena/hospitality workers

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, matter2003 said:

You wouldn't be letting them down. In most cases they let themselves down. Does nobody take responsibility for their lives anymore or does everyone just make one giant excuse after another as to why they are in the situation they are in? I mean I get the noble effort thing but honestly maybe what they need is to get a kick in the ass to make them re-assess things.

Are you sure this is about lack of responsibility?

Maybe they are being responsible for the lives of their children, or their parents?

Maybe Johnny can’t quit PSE and join the army because there is no one available to take care of his daughter while he trains? Maybe Janie can’t get her welding ticket because she can’t afford to quit working for PSE and the second similar job she has to pay for mom’s food and medication?

Maybe Jordan isn’t that smart, or strong and PSE is about the apex of their qualifications?

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

25 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Are you sure this is about lack of responsibility?

Maybe they are being responsible for the lives of their children, or their parents?

Maybe Johnny can’t quit PSE and join the army because there is no one available to take care of his daughter while he trains? Maybe Janie can’t get her welding ticket because she can’t afford to quit working for PSE and the second similar job she has to pay for mom’s food and medication?

Maybe Jordan isn’t that smart, or strong and PSE is about the apex of their qualifications?

Not to mention that "someone" has to clean the toilet seat when some Noble a**hole sh1ts all over it. If someone has to do it....wouldn't you rather have someone do it who might take a little pride in their work? Or would they rather someone who just doesn't care or not trained properly?

Who's gonna clean those covid rooms?

[triumph_communes]

Can we change the fake news headline so I don’t have to skim through all the crap to find out the title is actually false

[Weave]

7 hours ago, Hank said:

The point is those jobs are out there, they're just not appealing. They can be obtained by literally almost anyone who will take it. 

Your overall point is very narrow minded.  It lacks the perspective of other experiences.

Here's an example.  Not a fictional one.  It's my example.

3 college degrees. 25 years in the automotive industry.  Single income household.  Not middle management. I'm an engineer.   In 2010 during the worst of the Great Recession my employer closed our facility.  I've got 25 yrs experience and 3 degrees.  I should be fine, right?  I mean, if you work hard you'll find the opportunities, I suppose.  I spent 5 years passing form lousy job to lousy job borrowing money from my 401K to make ends meet.  After staying home to raise a family for 15 years, my wife went to work as well, part time at first, full time more recently.  Most of that time she was making minimum wage.  After 5 years of dwindling savings I finally found a job that paid what the automotive industry paid me half way through my career.  Over the next 4 years I worked my way back to being paid what I was paid when I left the automotive industry.  Life's good.  You work hard and good things happen, right?

First week of January my current employer announced that they are shutting our doors in September.  I've got a choice.  Relocate to a much higher cost of living area of the country or stay home and potentially go through what I went through in 2010-2016.  According to Hank, I need to pull my bootstraps up and move to CT.  Here's the kick.  If this friggin Corona virus thing doesn't postpone it, in 2 weeks my father is going in for testing to determine if he has colon cancer.  So, in 2 weeks I may have to make the ugly choice whether to risk the local job market and help care for my father, or move to CT.  If you haven't noticed, the economy is crashing right about now, making my employment prospects dicey.  And I'm 52.  If you haven't been on a job search at that age, discrimination is real.

So, in less than 10 years a guy who has 3 degrees, a 30 yr history of work experience, and marketable skills may very well need to rely on part time hours to supplement a work situation gone south for the second time in 10 years.

I'm not sure what life choice I made, or what I needed to work harder on to prevent being in a situation where I might need to depend on the goodwill of an employer to get out of a bag I didn't make.  Sometimes ***** just happens. 

For the guy/gal who chose to  work on the production floor out of school, their options are even less than mine in the same situation.

Edited March 15, 2020 by Weave

[Hank]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

Are you sure this is about lack of responsibility?

Maybe they are being responsible for the lives of their children, or their parents?

Maybe Johnny can’t quit PSE and join the army because there is no one available to take care of his daughter while he trains? Maybe Janie can’t get her welding ticket because she can’t afford to quit working for PSE and the second similar job she has to pay for mom’s food and medication?

Maybe Jordan isn’t that smart, or strong and PSE is about the apex of their qualifications?

Im guessing you meant to quote me? Where's Jonny's hypothetical deadbeat baby mama? Dead? No parents to help out? Who's taking care of his daughter while he's working evenings at the arena? Those same people couldn't watch his daughter while he learns a trade and makes better money doing uber? Janie's mom can't even afford her own food? She must also be living with Janie. Must be on the same intellectual spectrum as poor Jordan, who must be a product of the system, held back by the man. Poor little guy. 

[Hank]

18 minutes ago, Weave said:

Your overall point is very narrow minded.  It lacks the perspective of other experiences.

Here's an example.  Not a fictional one.  It's my example.

3 college degrees. 25 years in the automotive industry.  Single income household.  Not middle management. I'm an engineer.   In 2010 during the worst of the Great Recession my employer closed our facility.  I've got 25 yrs experience and 3 degrees.  I should be fine, right?  I mean, if you work hard you'll find the opportunities, I suppose.  I spent 5 years passing form lousy job to lousy job borrowing money from my 401K to make ends meet.  After staying home to raise a family for 15 years, my wife went to work as well, part time at first, full time more recently.  Most of that time she was making minimum wage.  After 5 years of dwindling savings I finally found a job that paid what the automotive industry paid me half way through my career.  Over the next 4 years I worked my way back to being paid what I was paid when I left the automotive industry.  Life's good.  You work hard and good things happen, right?

First week of January my current employer announced that they are shutting our doors in September.  I've got a choice.  Relocate to a much higher cost of living area of the country or stay home and potentially go through what I went through in 2010-2016.  According to Hank, I need to pull my bootstraps up and move to CT.  Here's the kick.  If this friggin Corona virus thing doesn't postpone it, in 2 weeks my father is going in for testing to determine if he has colon cancer.  So, in 2 weeks I may have to make the ugly choice whether to risk the local job market and help care for my father, or move to CT.  If you haven't noticed, the economy is crashing right about now, making my employment prospects dicey.  And I'm 52.  If you haven't been on a job search at that age, discrimination is real.

So, in less than 10 years a guy who has 3 degrees, a 30 yr history of work experience, and marketable skills may very well need to rely on part time hours to supplement a work situation gone south for the second time in 10 years.

I'm not sure what life choice I made, or what I needed to work harder on to prevent being in a situation where I might need to depend on the goodwill of an employer to get out of a bag I didn't make.  Sometimes ***** just happens. 

For the guy/gal who chose to  work on the production floor out of school, their options are even less than mine in the same situation.

Yes, you had struggles, most of us do. You worked hard, you got through it, and you will again. So can others.

[Weave]

3 minutes ago, Hank said:

Yes, you had struggles, most of us do. You worked hard, you got through it, and you will again. So can others.

Agreed.  But sometimes a hand is needed.  You're doing some serious judging here. There is no reason to look down on someone when they need a hand. 

A consequence of my situation is, my retirement savings are hosed.  I may be able to dig myself out of a hole now, but I won't have the flexibility to deal with setbacks when I am older.  I'll probably need outside help if things go south at some point during my post working years.  So, I may be in the same shoes as the people you are looking down your nose at now.

[Zamboni]

FYI ... This thread is no longer about the Pegulas not paying their workers. 
 

IMO ...

1. Get it back to that 

2. Close the thread

3. Change the title so it now reflects what this thread is about

One of those would be nice to see... 

[LTS]

14 hours ago, EasternOHSabresFan said:

When employers start paying a living wage and cut the deep gap in cost of living vs. wages, THEN maybe you have a point.

Until then, all of this is hogwash... employers have been taking advantage of low wages in this country for years. Time to pay up for those who made their money off of this fact.

This is what I referred to before.  What is the living wage?  Are you defining that based off what you feel people SHOULD have versus what they NEED?  Due to the general preponderance of society to be materialistic many people live beyond their means. Those who do so are actually getting a living wage, but are so foolish in how they handle their money that it seems like they are not.

People will question the situation.  Jobs that pay $X are not meant to be career jobs but rather are jobs that are designed to served in temporarily while those people work themselves up the ladder (no not everyone can, but most can).  

If you paid everyone "living wage" what do you think that would do to the cost of living?  What is the cost of a large cheese and pepperoni pizza when employees who make them get paid $20/hr?  Around here those pizzas are already $20+.  

10 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

So called easy life decisions are what I'm questioning more than anything, but to answer your question....yes for medical reasons.

But also, what about someone displaced from a job let's say because their company closed the doors and they're in their 60's with no other training and market is stagnant. Maybe underlying medical issues that limit capabilities and options? They take a job at a McD's or similar job to make ends meet and be useful instead of relying on welfare?

What about the kid who chooses the service, gets injured and/or PTSD then comes home and one day wigs out, pulls a knife on his mom....cops come and shoot him because he wouldn't put it down? Good life choice?

Could tell you others but you probably have your mind set already so won't bother.

There are thousands of what-ifs.. there are millions of didn't try or did make excuses.  You can find the exceptions, but don't ignore the majority of situations.  People are irrational and as such they make decisions that hinder them in many ways. No one wants to hear it, but that does not make it false.

My wife runs an organization that is geographically bound to the southern shore of Lake Ontario.  We are a single income family so she can spend time volunteering to run this organization. I work in a volatile field where I've been moved involuntarily between jobs 3 times in 7 years.  She's done this for nearly 25 years and yet we've planned that should I lose my job we are most likely going to be moving out of the state before I get my next job.  The market sucks in Rochester.  As it is, before COVID, I had to fly to the HQ in Arkansas (not Wal-mart) once a month.  We're prepared to uproot our kids and distance ourselves from family because we have to find a way to make ends meet.

That of course is MY situation and it isn't indicative of everyone else either.  Everyone's situation is different.  When I moved into my current house our neighbor was a carpenter and had a hard time finding consistent work.  They were in above their heads on the house they bought.  They ultimately moved into an apartment in our town.  This was their decision rather than uprooting their child and moving south where there were plenty of jobs.  Their choice.. they made it work. 

I have another friend whose wife was just diagnosed with a brain tumor.  He's had all kinds of health problems throughout his life that have prevented him holding down a steady job. He's done all kinds of side projects to try and earn money while she is a cashier at Wegmans.  They live paycheck to paycheck and now they are in really deep because she won't be working, he barely makes any money, and they will have a mountain of bills to pay.  Now, I've questioned some of his choices in the past as I think he's capable of finding a better way to earn a living, but at the same time I am donating to help them get through this surgery.

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

Are you sure this is about lack of responsibility?

Maybe they are being responsible for the lives of their children, or their parents?

Maybe Johnny can’t quit PSE and join the army because there is no one available to take care of his daughter while he trains? Maybe Janie can’t get her welding ticket because she can’t afford to quit working for PSE and the second similar job she has to pay for mom’s food and medication?

Maybe Jordan isn’t that smart, or strong and PSE is about the apex of their qualifications?

Maybe.  Maybe they made a choice to care for their children or parents and also need to accept the constraints that will put on their lives by choosing to do so.

Maybe Johnny had a kid at 17... maybe he made a decision then that will impact him for the rest of his life.

Maybe Jordan won't be able to have everything that someone who is smarter and more capable can have.  Does that mean Jordan should be given it anyway?

And just maybe they are all unfortunate circumstances where they need the good will of society to get through. Because maybe it was all out of their control because sometimes loads of really bad crap happen.  It's that point that you hope they've got a great social network that can help them get through the bad times.  Whether it's their employer, their friends, obtaining assistance from a charity that helps those in need or with a particular need, or at the end a government assistance program.

 

[Hank]

13 minutes ago, Weave said:

Agreed.  But sometimes a hand is needed.  You're doing some serious judging here. There is no reason to look down on someone when they need a hand. 

A consequence of my situation is, my retirement savings are hosed.  I may be able to dig myself out of a hole now, but I won't have the flexibility to deal with setbacks when I am older.  I'll probably need outside help if things go south at some point during my post working years.  So, I may be in the same shoes as the people you are looking down your nose at now.

You remember I was I single parent when 9/11 happened, my oldest son not dealing with my deployment very well and attempting suicide, being involuntarily separated from the Army because I had to come home and take care of him? Living in the 15th st projects and working at Friendly's at 32 years old? I've been there too, remember? Like you, I bounced back. Like you, I worked hard, was disciplined, and sacrificed. I'm not judging anyone. I'm saying most people, not all, but most, can better their life if they really want to. You know I'm right. 

[Ogre]

12 hours ago, Hank said:

There's not enough qualified welders to fill available jobs.

. 

7 hours ago, Hank said:

The country is short of qualified welders.

Since you've mentioned this twice now with absolutely nothing to back up your claim, I'm going to call BS. Prove me wrong. This is one of the fields that I train people in so I can offer my two cents with authority. First off, when you are trained as a welder, you are trained in a specific welding process(SMAW,FCAW,TIG,MIG etc). These processes are not the same in terms of training or equipment used. The other variable involved with training to be a welder is in the type of weld groove that you were trained on and the weld positions that you have successfully passed the testing for. Example: I hold a SMAW certification for 3G and 4G for groove unlimited thickness. That takes a hell of a lot more training than someone with a SMAW 3/8" 2G fillet cert and that is even in the same weld process. If want certs for FCAW(which is also frequently used in my trade) I need to take another course in it's entirety. They also come with a huge swing in wages paid for that process. So if someone took your advice and went to someplace like the Arc an Flame Center, and got a certificate of completion, they would still be vastly UNDERTRAINED to make anything more than a $14/hr starting level job with no benefits. That person with the certificate of completion would then have to undergo a training course that could certify them through the AWS in a specific process with the specific parameters of the process that they are training in. That takes $$ and time so maybe they need PSE in the meantime? I appreciate that you used welding in your argument but you didn't do your homework, friend. Isn't that your big gripe about the under employed? They didn't try hard enough? I'd be satisfied if you could prove to me how welding(the higher level of welding where the sustainable wage comes from) is in high demand. I don't want stats on the entry level $14/hr gigs. Show me the numbers on how people are getting that living wage. I'd be glad to incorporate your argument the next time I am recruiting high school aged people for my trade. Go ahead. Tell me things about my trade that I don't already know.

[Weave]

25 minutes ago, Hank said:

You remember I was I single parent when 9/11 happened, my oldest son not dealing with my deployment very well and attempting suicide, being involuntarily separated from the Army because I had to come home and take care of him? Living in the 15th st projects and working at Friendly's at 32 years old? I've been there too, remember? Like you, I bounced back. Like you, I worked hard, was disciplined, and sacrificed. I'm not judging anyone. I'm saying most people, not all, but most, can better their life if they really want to. You know I'm right. 

I know there are alot of people that don't have the resources that I have.  I made it work.  It cost me my mental health in the process.

[TrueBlueGED]

9 hours ago, nfreeman said:

@Eleven — again, not everything is political.  This is a broad and sober and mostly respectful discussion about the obligations in society of the wealthy and of those who are just getting by.  No one is firing in hysterical and/or gratuitous partisan shots.  

"You're in your poor situation only because of your choices" is the holy grail of gratuitous partisan potshots. You just don't perceive it that way because of your own leanings. 

[nfreeman]

19 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

"You're in your poor situation only because of your choices" is the holy grail of gratuitous partisan potshots. You just don't perceive it that way because of your own leanings. 

No.  It's merely the flip side to "the rich should pay more to help the poor" -- a view that has been repeatedly expressed in this thread and yet not, for some reason, characterized as "partisan" or "gratuitous" by you and others making accusations of bias.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, LTS said:

This is what I referred to before.  What is the living wage?  Are you defining that based off what you feel people SHOULD have versus what they NEED?  Due to the general preponderance of society to be materialistic many people live beyond their means. Those who do so are actually getting a living wage, but are so foolish in how they handle their money that it seems like they are not.

People will question the situation.  Jobs that pay $X are not meant to be career jobs but rather are jobs that are designed to served in temporarily while those people work themselves up the ladder (no not everyone can, but most can).  

If you paid everyone "living wage" what do you think that would do to the cost of living?  What is the cost of a large cheese and pepperoni pizza when employees who make them get paid $20/hr?  Around here those pizzas are already $20+.  

There are thousands of what-ifs.. there are millions of didn't try or did make excuses.  You can find the exceptions, but don't ignore the majority of situations.  People are irrational and as such they make decisions that hinder them in many ways. No one wants to hear it, but that does not make it false.

My wife runs an organization that is geographically bound to the southern shore of Lake Ontario.  We are a single income family so she can spend time volunteering to run this organization. I work in a volatile field where I've been moved involuntarily between jobs 3 times in 7 years.  She's done this for nearly 25 years and yet we've planned that should I lose my job we are most likely going to be moving out of the state before I get my next job.  The market sucks in Rochester.  As it is, before COVID, I had to fly to the HQ in Arkansas (not Wal-mart) once a month.  We're prepared to uproot our kids and distance ourselves from family because we have to find a way to make ends meet.

That of course is MY situation and it isn't indicative of everyone else either.  Everyone's situation is different.  When I moved into my current house our neighbor was a carpenter and had a hard time finding consistent work.  They were in above their heads on the house they bought.  They ultimately moved into an apartment in our town.  This was their decision rather than uprooting their child and moving south where there were plenty of jobs.  Their choice.. they made it work. 

I have another friend whose wife was just diagnosed with a brain tumor.  He's had all kinds of health problems throughout his life that have prevented him holding down a steady job. He's done all kinds of side projects to try and earn money while she is a cashier at Wegmans.  They live paycheck to paycheck and now they are in really deep because she won't be working, he barely makes any money, and they will have a mountain of bills to pay.  Now, I've questioned some of his choices in the past as I think he's capable of finding a better way to earn a living, but at the same time I am donating to help them get through this surgery.

Maybe.  Maybe they made a choice to care for their children or parents and also need to accept the constraints that will put on their lives by choosing to do so.

Maybe Johnny had a kid at 17... maybe he made a decision then that will impact him for the rest of his life.

Maybe Jordan won't be able to have everything that someone who is smarter and more capable can have.  Does that mean Jordan should be given it anyway?

And just maybe they are all unfortunate circumstances where they need the good will of society to get through. Because maybe it was all out of their control because sometimes loads of really bad crap happen.  It's that point that you hope they've got a great social network that can help them get through the bad times.  Whether it's their employer, their friends, obtaining assistance from a charity that helps those in need or with a particular need, or at the end a government assistance program.

 

The bolded is what I've been trying to get across in my posts. Those people shouldn't be dumped on just because of their job status and/or position in life especially without knowing their situation at all. It may just be a temporary job to hold them over for better times and are at least making an attempt to support themselves. I also agree that some life choices along the way possibly could have been better but that could also be considered hindsight. Myself, sure I regret some of the choices I've made over the years but even some of the bad choices I don't regret because they've let to some fond memories, happiness within myself and others, and looking back some choices weren't nearly as bad as once was thought.

Some menial jobs and moreso the people whom perform them are looked down upon as if they are low-life losers who don't want to better themselves when that may be the farthest from the truth. Those jobs are sometimes more important than much higher paying jobs.

Just think....in a crisis like this virus, who would you consider more important, a sales manager with a six figure income or the janitor who takes pride in his work cleaning a hospital room making near minimum wage, or a bricklayer with a good income? I hope you don't choose the bricklayers sales manager just because he could build you a wall.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Ogre said:

First off, when you are trained as a welder, you are trained in a specific welding process(SMAW,FCAW,TIG,MIG etc). These processes are not the same in terms of training or equipment used.

You actually do use the same machine for all four processes. Three processes, being that MIG AND FCAW are the exact same process, you just use a flux core wire in FCAW, which is what the FC stands for. The difference between MIG and FCAW is as significant as writing with blue ink as opposed to black ink. You of course know that being that you train people. You use a stinger for stick welding. For MIG you disconnect the stinger, attach the hose, run the wire through it, and use an 80% argon mix as a shielding gas. For TIG you attach a different hose, the collet, collet body, tungsten and use a 100% argon as a shielding gas. Same machine though. You already know this of course, being that you train people. 

 

35 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

No.  It's merely the flip side to "the rich should pay more to help the poor" -- a view that has been repeatedly expressed in this thread and yet not, for some reason, characterized as "partisan" or "gratuitous" by you and others making accusations of bias.

It's societies fault. No ones responsible for their own actions. Success is given, not earned. Don't you know that?

[Stoner]

21 hours ago, tom webster said:

They announced they will he paid if games are canceled.

The money is a lot more then some if the calculations.

Decisions such as these are not taken lightly.

 

Thanks also to the players, staff and Alumni Foundation for helping out. It lightens the burden on the Pegulas.

[Stoner]

3 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Can we change the fake news headline so I don’t have to skim through all the crap to find out the title is actually false

PSE, players, staff, Alumni might help workers

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Ogre said:

. 

Since you've mentioned this twice now with absolutely nothing to back up your claim, I'm going to call BS. Prove me wrong. This is one of the fields that I train people in so I can offer my two cents with authority. First off, when you are trained as a welder, you are trained in a specific welding process(SMAW,FCAW,TIG,MIG etc). These processes are not the same in terms of training or equipment used. The other variable involved with training to be a welder is in the type of weld groove that you were trained on and the weld positions that you have successfully passed the testing for. Example: I hold a SMAW certification for 3G and 4G for groove unlimited thickness. That takes a hell of a lot more training than someone with a SMAW 3/8" 2G fillet cert and that is even in the same weld process. If want certs for FCAW(which is also frequently used in my trade) I need to take another course in it's entirety. They also come with a huge swing in wages paid for that process. So if someone took your advice and went to someplace like the Arc an Flame Center, and got a certificate of completion, they would still be vastly UNDERTRAINED to make anything more than a $14/hr starting level job with no benefits. That person with the certificate of completion would then have to undergo a training course that could certify them through the AWS in a specific process with the specific parameters of the process that they are training in. That takes $$ and time so maybe they need PSE in the meantime? I appreciate that you used welding in your argument but you didn't do your homework, friend. Isn't that your big gripe about the under employed? They didn't try hard enough? I'd be satisfied if you could prove to me how welding(the higher level of welding where the sustainable wage comes from) is in high demand. I don't want stats on the entry level $14/hr gigs. Show me the numbers on how people are getting that living wage. I'd be glad to incorporate your argument the next time I am recruiting high school aged people for my trade. Go ahead. Tell me things about my trade that I don't already know.

Local 572 in Nashville is hiring. Journeymen start at $35/he after completing their apprenticeship program. Consider moving. 

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

Im guessing you meant to quote me? Where's Jonny's hypothetical deadbeat baby mama? Dead? No parents to help out? Who's taking care of his daughter while he's working evenings at the arena? Those same people couldn't watch his daughter while he learns a trade and makes better money doing uber? Janie's mom can't even afford her own food? She must also be living with Janie. Must be on the same intellectual spectrum as poor Jordan, who must be a product of the system, held back by the man. Poor little guy. 

Wherever baby mama is, she’s not available to help. Johnny’s bad choice, marrying a woman who got cancer.

Johnny moved away from his parents in the Midwest in a bid to pull himself up by his bootstraps going where the jobs were before the economy changed. He’s not going back to expose his daughter to his mom’s booze and bad boyfriends. His bad choice. 

Janey’s mom is pretty ill and very much dependent on her. Janey’s bad choice for not cutting her loose to get that welding certificate.

Jordan is a hard worker, just didn’t get the good genes. Everyone at PSE is amazed at how reliable he is and well he does his job given his limitations, I’m not sure what his bad choice was, maybe something in the womb.

I try to work hard, surround myself with good people, and treat them well. It’s helped me maintain a comfortable life for my family. I also am eternally grateful that I was born with good health and intellect into an amazing family support system that helped me figure things out and smooth out the bumps along the way. Good fortune has meant as much to me as good work and good choices.

The flaw in your apparent philosophy is not in saying that all people have the capacity to improve their lot in life - they do - or even so much in your frustration with those who choose not to try.

 It is in not seemingly recognizing how hard some people are working to get to even the “lowly” spot they are in and allowing your pride in your own choices and situations to supersede any empathy for theirs.

Edited March 15, 2020 by dudacek

[Ogre]

5 minutes ago, Hank said:

You actually do use the same machine for all four processes. Three processes, being that MIG AND FCAW are the exact same process, you just use a flux core wire in FCAW, which is what the FC stands for. The difference between MIG and FCAW is as significant as writing with blue ink as opposed to black ink. You of course know that being that you train people. You use a stinger for stick welding. For MIG you disconnect the stinger, attach the hose, run the wire through it, and use an 80% argon mix as a shielding gas. For TIG you attach a different hose, the collet, collet body, tungsten and use a 100% argon as a shielding gas. Same machine though. You already know this of course, being that you train people. 

 

It's societies fault. No ones responsible for their own actions. Success is given, not earned. Don't you know that?

If you’re referring to the fact that an IGBT machine CAN run all processes, that is a half truth. To switch from SMAW(what you’re calling”stick”) to the FCAW process you’d need the entire “suitcase” apparatus that holds all the inverters and the roll of wire. How can I just unplug the stinger and attach a “hose”(it’s a weld lead)? Where is the wire coming from? There is no tweco handle on Earth that’s 200’ long. I don’t think  there are any that are over 10’! There are some machines that have that capability but that machine is as proportional to a standard SMAW machine as a pen is to a crayon(you started the write implement analogy, not me). The other big difference(as if the necessity of extra equipment wasn’t enough) is that the SMAC runs on constant apms whereas FCAW runs on constant voltage. HUGE difference. If you didn’t already know this then you obviously haven’t used both processes. The MIG is not interchangeable with FCAW. The only similarity is with the fact that both use rolled wire as the consumable. I own a FCAW machine that can NOT run MIG as it doesn’t have the fittings for the argon. There are also different requirements for drive wheels. The TIG process as well needs extra equipment to convert an IGBT machine into a TIG machine. Just because you used a machine that runs SMAW doesn’t translate directly to the other processes. I can ***** go on and on and on and on and on. Do yourself a favor and study up a little before you go beating on your chest. I’m a reasonable person that’s smart enough to keep his ***** mouth shut when he doesn’t have the knowledge necessary to intercede. I’m not willing, though, to let someone spin their wheels on a topic they have a passing experience with. That’s doesn’t do the topic justice.
 

Also, where are those stats in regards to high demand for specifically trained welders?

[Ogre]

25 minutes ago, Hank said:

Local 572 in Nashville is hiring. Journeymen start at $35/he after completing their apprenticeship program. Consider moving. 

You have to be accepted into the program. Let me explain to you how that works(because I’m involved with it. An organizer or Apprentice coordinator has to have a set monthly day(by law) to accept applications. They can’t accept one in advance as the government deems that unfair. Out of all of those accepted applications that said Coordinator has to rank the applicants by experience and prior training. They are then only allowed to hire apprentices in that specific order(again, by law and if you don’t think this is fair, then talk to the conservative anti Union lawmakers that made this a requirement). It may take him many years and several attempts to get into the program. The call was made for journeymen, not apprentices. There are strict rules that vary by local but they all have language that limits the ratio of apprentices to journeymen. This is  to prevent an apprentice from being forced into a situation that he is not yet trained for. It’s for safety. You can try to argue all of this stuff with me but you have absolutely no idea who I am and what I’m involved with. You just keep making yourself look like an even bigger ass every time too. Like I’ve said already, I keep my mouth shut when I lack the knowledge or even suspect that I lack the knowledge. You should give that a try.

[Hank]

9 minutes ago, Ogre said:

You have to be accepted into the program. Let me explain to you how that works(because I’m involved with it. An organizer or Apprentice coordinator has to have a set monthly day(by law) to accept applications. They can’t accept one in advance as the government deems that unfair. Out of all of those accepted applications that said Coordinator has to rank the applicants by experience and prior training. They are then only allowed to hire apprentices in that specific order(again, by law and if you don’t think this is fair, then talk to the conservative anti Union lawmakers that made this a requirement). It may take him many years and several attempts to get into the program. The call was made for journeymen, not apprentices. There are strict rules that vary by local but they all have language that limits the ratio of apprentices to journeymen. This is  to prevent an apprentice from being forced into a situation that he is not yet trained for. It’s for safety. You can try to argue all of this stuff with me but you have absolutely no idea who I am and what I’m involved with. You just keep making yourself look like an even bigger ass every time too. Like I’ve said already, I keep my mouth shut when I lack the knowledge or even suspect that I lack the knowledge. You should give that a try.

Two students from my Feb class were accepted last week. Local 91 in Birmingham is also hiring. Jobs are out there. 

[Ogre]

13 minutes ago, Hank said:

Two students from my Feb class were accepted last week. Local 91 in Birmingham is also hiring. Jobs are out there. 

Find where I said that there wasn’t jobs out there in my text that you quoted and highlight it for me. Oh you can’t? Cause I didn’t? Strike three, bub.

Can’t answer the tough questions yet blah blah blah.

[Ogre]

25 minutes ago, Hank said:

Two students from my Feb class were accepted last week. Local 91 in Birmingham is also hiring. Jobs are out there. 

And they’re ALL hiring. Every single one of them. It’s a matter of the ranking process as I’ve described. The fact that the two you reference were ranked higher due to prior training only proves MY point, that it isn’t as easy and there are far more hurtles than you care to acknowledge.