COVID-19

[darksabre]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Not according to the Georgia Department of Public Health.

GDPH

*shrug*

https://www.wabe.org/kemp-warns-of-growing-outbreak-stressing-northeast-georgia/

[Stoner]

A woman who works in a local nursing home told her husband who told the husband of my co-worker who told my co-worker who told another co-worker of mine who told me that... antibody testing had been done on the entire staff at the home and there were many who tested positive. This is in a zip code with no positive tests so far out of 80 tests. Kind of interesting.

Or, given the nature of the telephone game, what the woman really said was, "I am positive after seeing Ben in his tight-fiting scrubs that I am officially anti-body."

[Neo]

I am afraid we’ve developed herd immunity ...  to a voice informed and experienced used courageously to speak rationally in terms of choices, outcomes, costs and benefits.  People have died in his hands.  We suggested he’s “ok” with it and called him a nut.

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, Neo said:

I am afraid we’ve developed herd immunity ...  to a voice informed and experienced used courageously to speak rationally in terms of choices, outcomes, costs and benefits.  People have died in his hands.  We suggested he’s “ok” with it and called him a nut.

Because I asked him a question? I wanted to know where his limits were. 

[Neo]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

So you are comfortable with several million people dying? Is that correct?

Those might not be the questions I’d ask if I wanted to know if someone had a limit calculation or methodology around herd immunity.  Call me a smooth talkin’ charmer ....

Edited May 7, 2020 by Neo

[Taro T]

25 minutes ago, darksabre said:

*shrug*

https://www.wabe.org/kemp-warns-of-growing-outbreak-stressing-northeast-georgia/

The main source of infection touted in that article was a chicken processing plant and it stressed that the state is trying to get better info and testing out to people working in such facilities.  Meat processors have been hit heavily throughout the country.  

It will bear watching both Georgia and Colorado over the coming days as both have had similar reopenings.

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, Neo said:

Those might not be the questions I’d ask if I wanted to know if someone had a limit calculation or methodology around herd immunity.  Call me a smooth talkin’ charmer ....

Oh so how he words things is "rationale" and "courageous" but asking him a question about a possible outcome, that is a bridge too far. 

[Neo]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Oh so how he words things is "rationale" and "courageous" but asking him a question about a possible outcome, that is a bridge too far. 

Had you asked him a question about a possible outcome, it would not be a bridge too far.  I’m not sure whether or not you see the difference between what you asked originally or what you ask in your re-phrasing.  If you don’t, I can’t help.  If you do, you don’t want my help.

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, Neo said:

Had you asked him a question about a possible outcome, it would not be a bridge too far.  I’m not sure whether or not you see the difference between what you asked originally or what you ask in your re-phrasing.  If you don’t, I can’t help.  If you do, you don’t want my help.

And you don't see what you did at all. Reminds me of the other interaction I have had with you recently. 

[That Aud Smell]

The most assertive, self-assured medical voice in my circle proclaimed a couple weeks ago that Florida was gonna be FOOKED.

Not so much, it’s turned out.

There’s much that’s known about the virus. And it appears that there’s much that’s not known.

On the other side of the ledger: That same voice was proclaiming “phew - kids aren’t being affected”.

Again, not entirely true, it appears (as the weird inflammatory syndrome hospitalizations in NYC suggest).

Has there been discussion herein of how some areas of the world really seemed to get a virulent strain (NYC, Italy), while others seemed to get a less potent one (Seattle?)?

[Eleven]

What in the world went on in here?

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

The most assertive, self-assured medical voice in my circle proclaimed a couple weeks ago that Florida was gonna be FOOKED.

Not so much, it’s turned out.

There’s much that’s known about the virus. And it appears that there’s much that’s not known.

On the other side of the ledger: That same voice was proclaiming “phew - kids aren’t being affected”.

Again, not entirely true, it appears (as the weird inflammatory syndrome hospitalizations in NYC suggest).

Has there been discussion herein of how some areas of the world really seemed to get a virulent strain (NYC, Italy), while others seemed to get a less potent one (Seattle?)?

The only correlation that jumps out at me is air quality.

[Brawndo]

35 minutes ago, Eleven said:

What in the world went on in here?

I was coming to post some information and felt like this 

 

[SwampD]

28 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

I was coming to post some information and felt like this 

 

Don't let this stop you. I know that many of us appreciate the insider input.

[Stoner]

2 hours ago, Neo said:

I am afraid we’ve developed herd immunity ...  to a voice informed and experienced used courageously to speak rationally in terms of choices, outcomes, costs and benefits.  People have died in his hands.  We suggested he’s “ok” with it and called him a nut.

I'm not sure it was all that rational. He's been all over the place. And his tone was pretty off-key in a discussion where many people are just flat out afraid. Maybe he is too. I'm not mad at him, he's a good man. This whole situation has turned everyone inside out.

[Stoner]

Re: the meat processing plants. Anyone ever make the mistake of farting while skating (not sharting, mind you)? Big mistake. It doesn't disperse. It's the mistake that keeps on giving. And punishing everyone around you. For a good long time. I think it's because the gas doesn't rise; cold air sinks. My pet theory is that this virus gets aerosolized, and in the (I would assume) cold, dry environment of these plants, it hangs around, for a good long time. I've never believed so many workers touched infected surfaces or breathed heavy droplets let out by sick co-workers, one rapidly infecting the next. I'll dedicate my Nobel Prize to Andrej Meszaros.

[Curt]

3 hours ago, Neo said:

I am afraid we’ve developed herd immunity ...  to a voice informed and experienced used courageously to speak rationally in terms of choices, outcomes, costs and benefits.  People have died in his hands.  We suggested he’s “ok” with it and called him a nut.

I get what you are saying here, but I just want to say that I don’t think Woody is particularly more informed in the areas of epidemiology or the economic and social impacts of a shutdown than many others here.  I believe that he has stated as much in the past, correct me if I’m wrong.

He is certainly entitled to his opinion, but I feel that it’s based upon his emotion and personal experiences more so than any study or deeper understanding of the situation.  That’s ok though.

[Eleven]

There is a plausible "10,000 foot view" that millions of people are going to die from this anyway, so let's just get on with our lives.  It doesn't mean that people with that view want one of those people to be themselves or one of their loved ones, and it's not born from selfishness.  It's just a plausible view.

[shrader]

3 minutes ago, Eleven said:

There is a plausible "10,000 foot view" that millions of people are going to die from this anyway, so let's just get on with our lives.  It doesn't mean that people with that view want one of those people to be themselves or one of their loved ones, and it's not born from selfishness.  It's just a plausible view.

And then there's the people who have died during this for other reasons since they don't want to seek medical attention.  That may very well be the biggest concern from all of this longterm.  People aren't seeking out care when they otherwise would and that's going to cause a lot of issues down the road. 

[Stoner]

3 minutes ago, Eleven said:

There is a plausible "10,000 foot view" that millions of people are going to die from this anyway, so let's just get on with our lives.  It doesn't mean that people with that view want one of those people to be themselves or one of their loved ones, and it's not born from selfishness.  It's just a plausible view.

I think you've encapsulated it pretty well, except for the plausible part and the selfishness part. It's not plausible to suggest that allowing millions of people to die relatively quickly is better than spreading the deaths way out — in fact, so way out that treatments and vaccines would arrive before you reached that death toll. I mean, it was like six weeks and some people started freaking out. Are we that spastic a society? The thing that irks me is we did all the hard work to flatten the curve, now we're spitting out the bit before the virus is on the mat, so to speak. As for selfishness, "I don't want to sacrifice anything in the name of societal good" is the very definition of it.

[Stoner]

2 minutes ago, shrader said:

And then there's the people who have died during this for other reasons since they don't want to seek medical attention.  That may very well be the biggest concern from all of this longterm.  People aren't seeking out care when they otherwise would and that's going to cause a lot of issues down the road. 

Maybe. Or maybe it's an urban legend. "Bob had a massive coronary at home and still wouldn't call 911. Now he eats his soup through a straw while re-watching Super Bowl 27." Think about the deaths unrelated to Covid-19 that would have ensued had the health care system essentially ceased to exist.

[Eleven]

5 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I think you've encapsulated it pretty well, except for the plausible part and the selfishness part. It's not plausible to suggest that allowing millions of people to die relatively quickly is better than spreading the deaths way out — in fact, so way out that treatments and vaccines would arrive before you reached that death toll. I mean, it was like six weeks and some people started freaking out. Are we that spastic a society? The thing that irks me is we did all the hard work to flatten the curve, now we're spitting out the bit before the virus is on the mat, so to speak. As for selfishness, "I don't want to sacrifice anything in the name of societal good" is the very definition of it.

IF one is of the opinion that (1) we aren't getting treatments or vaccines any time soon, if ever, and (2) that, accordingly, no societal good would come from sacrifice anyway, then it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that (3) we should just get on with our lives.

IF one is of that opinion.  I'm not sure where I am.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Eleven

[Stoner]

2 minutes ago, Eleven said:

IF one is of the opinion that (1) we aren't getting treatments or vaccines any time soon, if ever, and (2) that no societal good would come from sacrifice anyway, then it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that (3) we should just get on with our lives.

IF one is of that opinion.  I'm not sure where I am.

But we're having this discussion in early May, not early March. We can see the societal good that sacrifice did. And in just this short span of time, we already have a proven treatment, Remdesivir, although it's hardly a game-changer, and there are vaccines well in the works, as @Zamboni keeps us apprised on.

[shrader]

12 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Maybe. Or maybe it's an urban legend. "Bob had a massive coronary at home and still wouldn't call 911. Now he eats his soup through a straw while re-watching Super Bowl 27." Think about the deaths unrelated to Covid-19 that would have ensued had the health care system essentially ceased to exist.

But that hasn't happened.  Hell, we don't even know if it would have if things were different.  I'm not going to focus on changing past actions.  Hospitals have not been overrun in most places, many hospitals have seen sharp drops in their typical areas of care, particularly cardiac units.  We haven't suddenly become a heart-healthy society.  Heart disease has always been the #1 cause of death and it's going to rear it's ugly head when this lack of care catches up with people.

[Neo]

A tip of the hat to several of you who’ve quoted me or mentioned me.   Respectful, truly.

For brevity, and to avoid the point - counter point this medium encourages, fosters, facilitates, etc ...

I acknowledge what you just wrote.   I can acknowledge your points without asking a physician if he’s comfortable with the death of millions or suggesting he’s a monster.  Considering what he’s lived for two months, it’s not a stretch to consider the comments somewhere along the continuum between insensitive and cruel.  The comments were wrong as premise and wrong as insinuation, that rare double play that is form and substance, both.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Neo