COVID-19

[triumph_communes]

Just now, Cascade Youth said:

No, you outright lied in your post.  Now you're calling it "nuance."  Just absolute garbage.

Please point out the lie

[nucci]

2 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I am not going to get dragged into a non-vax debate.  I am not vaccinated for reasons that I have clearly outlined ... YET.  I am NOT anti-vax.  I am fortunate to be in a position to be able to wait and see what happens.

All I will say is that the vaccines have not been out long enough for anyone to really say how well they will work long-term.  When the leading country in vaccination rates (Israel) and the first to say that the country is fully vaccinated yet they are now calling for booster shots then something tells me the vaccines will not be the complete answer to this.

agreed but there is a big if not bigger risk for not getting the shots? I don't think they are saying it's the complete answer. Vaccines plus being smart is what will fix this.

[Cascade Youth]

Just now, triumph_communes said:

Please point out the lie

Please point out where the CDC has repeatedly said that vaccines don't stop the transmission of COVID.  I showed you an ACTUAL CDC statement that says the opposite.  You then said well, but it's based on bad science so they're really saying the opposite?  This is beyond demented.

5 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I am not going to get dragged into a non-vax debate.  I am not vaccinated for reasons that I have clearly outlined ... YET.  I am NOT anti-vax.  I am fortunate to be in a position to be able to wait and see what happens.

All I will say is that the vaccines have not been out long enough for anyone to really say how well they will work long-term.  When the leading country in vaccination rates (Israel) and the first to say that the country is fully vaccinated yet they are now calling for booster shots then something tells me the vaccines will not be the complete answer to this.

Nobody - not a single credible person - has said vaccines are the "complete answer."  The issue is risk/benefit.  Tens of millions of people have gotten the vaccines and the actual documented cases of serious side effects are statistically close to zero.

[triumph_communes]

1 minute ago, nucci said:

agreed but there is a big if not bigger risk for not getting the shots? I don't think they are saying it's the complete answer. Vaccines plus being smart is what will fix this.

Well the one debate from the get go is vaccines that don’t kill only mitigate will accelerate the mutation of the strains and is why they’re getting strong enough now to get kids sick. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 minute ago, nucci said:

agreed but there is a big if not bigger risk for not getting the shots? I don't think they are saying it's the complete answer. Vaccines plus being smart is what will fix this.

Sure.  You are more at risk not vaccinated.  Many people I know just want the vaccine so they can go on a cruise, or south for the winter and to get back to 'normal'.  I don't see that happening regardless of vaccination rates.

[triumph_communes]

7 minutes ago, Cascade Youth said:

Please point out where the CDC has repeatedly said that vaccines don't stop the transmission of COVID.  I showed you an ACTUAL CDC statement that says the opposite.  You then said well, but it's based on bad science so they're really saying the opposite?  This is beyond demented.

Nobody - not a single credible person - has said vaccines are the "complete answer."  The issue is risk/benefit.  Tens of millions of people have gotten the vaccines and the actual documented cases of serious side effects are statistically close to zero.

Nothing has ever said stopped. They stated ‘growing body of evidence’ and ‘reduce’. I then linked that growing body of evidence that is clearly all no better than wishful thinking but wi the huge fundamental flaws as far as data science goes. Go search for the CDC director who clearly says it doesn’t stop transmission and how the Delta variant is showing breakthrough which would undermine most of the wishful ‘reduction’ claims. 
 

If you think this is a non answer then stop replying

 

here’s a link:

 

https://www.rollcall.com/2021/07/30/cdc-report-shows-vaccinated-people-can-spread-covid-19/

Edited August 26, 2021 by triumph_communes

[darksabre]

2 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Sure.  You are more at risk not vaccinated.  Many people I know just want the vaccine so they can go on a cruise, or south for the winter and to get back to 'normal'.  I don't see that happening regardless of vaccination rates.

That's the whole point of the vaccine. Not getting back to normal is how you compound the tragedy of the pandemic by crippling the global economy again. A lot of pain and suffering was caused by the measures that were required to suppress the spread before the vaccine. The vaccine is supposed to prevent that from happening again, but it doesn't work if people don't use it.

Getting back to normal is the goal. The alternative is more pain and suffering.

[bg17]

34 minutes ago, darksabre said:

That's the whole point of the vaccine. Not getting back to normal is how you compound the tragedy of the pandemic by crippling the global economy again. A lot of pain and suffering was caused by the measures that were required to suppress the spread before the vaccine. The vaccine is supposed to prevent that from happening again, but it doesn't work if people don't use it.

Getting back to normal is the goal. The alternative is more pain and suffering.

They used the vaccine to a very great degree in Israel. It’s not going well. In Palestine, very limited vax. Their numbers are currently pretty good (unlikely to stay that way imo). No links. Easily found via google Looks like there is no magic bullet. 

[darksabre]

I just want to know when we will be satisfied. I think COVID has done a pretty nice job of circulating and killing, of messing peoples lives up in all sorts of new and exciting ways. I'm pretty satisfied with the death toll, pain, and suffering; B-, pretty good plague.

But I guess a lot of people are just not feeling sated. We have (had?) the opportunity to really put this whole thing to bed pretty quickly. A miracle of modern science was given to us and we said "No, thank you. I believe the virus deserves a chance to continue for several more years. It hasn't even mutated that many times! Just give it a chance to achieve its dreams."

And so now we get to re-calibrate for the long-haul of COVID. We could have had normalcy, or at least something pretty close to it, but we rejected that.

The only question now becomes: whose hunger will be satisfied first, the virus', or ours?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

34 minutes ago, darksabre said:

That's the whole point of the vaccine. Not getting back to normal is how you compound the tragedy of the pandemic by crippling the global economy again. A lot of pain and suffering was caused by the measures that were required to suppress the spread before the vaccine. The vaccine is supposed to prevent that from happening again, but it doesn't work if people don't use it.

Getting back to normal is the goal. The alternative is more pain and suffering.

There is no going back to the old 'normal', IMO.  We will be living with COVID and learning to deal with it.  Vaccine will become part of that for many / most.  I have a feeling based on what out Prime Minister is quielty doing (pre-ordering booster vaccine) and what the Delta is telling us that there will likely be a yearly booster, much like the flu shot, that will be encouraged, or suggested at least.

Not talking politics, but we are  in election mode here in Canada and the results could really influence what direction we go as a country.

While I agree that there were very many impacted terribly by the shut downs, but others are becoming very wealthy, or mist likely increasing their wealth, during this pandemic.  The biggest corporations in Canada are doing very well.  Many small buisnesses have had to close, some of my clients.  So, it's all over the map.

[darksabre]

2 minutes ago, bg17 said:

They used the vaccine to a very great degree in Israel. It’s not going well. In Palestine, very limited vax. Their numbers are currently pretty good (unlikely to stay that way imo). No links. Easily found via google Looks like there is no magic bullet. 

Israel used a very accelerated vaccine schedule which limited the efficacy. Easily found via google.

[darksabre]

6 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

There is no going back to the old 'normal', IMO.  We will be living with COVID and learning to deal with it.  Vaccine will become part of that for many / most.  I have a feeling based on what out Prime Minister is quielty doing (pre-ordering booster vaccine) and what the Delta is telling us that there will likely be a yearly booster, much like the flu shot, that will be encouraged, or suggested at least.

Not talking politics, but we are  in election mode here in Canada and the results could really influence what direction we go as a country.

While I agree that there were very many impacted terribly by the shut downs, but others are becoming very wealthy, or mist likely increasing their wealth, during this pandemic.  The biggest corporations in Canada are doing very well.  Many small buisnesses have had to close, some of my clients.  So, it's all over the map.

I'm not trying to be mean to you or anything here, but every post you make about the pandemic makes it seem as though it really hasn't affected you very much.

[bg17]

9 minutes ago, darksabre said:

Israel used a very accelerated vaccine schedule which limited the efficacy. Easily found via google.

The vaccines don’t work as well if they are administered with urgency? Haven’t heard that but will research. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I'm not trying to be mean to you or anything here, but every post you make about the pandemic makes it seem as though it really hasn't affected you very much.

I understand what you are saying and you are basically right.  COVID has not affected me directly much at all.  I am very fortunate to live in a place where isolation is easy and quite pleasant.  I can walk down a 100 yard path to our wharf on a nice very sheltered bay on the Atlantic.  I can see the wide open ocean from there easily.  I am basically a 'home body' to begin with, so I do not go to the movies, to restaurants ... very rarely.  I have altered my shopping habits to go into town for provisions as rarely as possible.

On the other hand my wife's aunt and uncle both died from COVID.  We were not very close, but still.  I have known many friends to have gotten it (here and in Europe) and it was very touch and go for them and they are experiencing some long-term after effects.  I also know first hand some that have been vaccinated and have experienced very bad side effects.

[LGR4GM]

15 minutes ago, bg17 said:

The vaccines don’t work as well if they are administered with urgency? Haven’t heard that but will research. 

Is this sarcasm? Or a typo with the word urgency? I just need to know. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

7 minutes ago, bg17 said:

The vaccines don’t work as well if they are administered with urgency? Haven’t heard that but will research. 

There has been some back and forth as to the best vaccine scheduling and how long to wait between doses.  It's still going on and the bottom line is no one really knows for sure what is best.

[nfreeman]

8 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

There has been some back and forth as to the best vaccine scheduling and how long to wait between doses.  It's still going on and the bottom line is no one really knows for sure what is best.

Not even SabreSpace posters?  There are a few in this thread who seem quite sure about things.

[darksabre]

7 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I understand what you are saying and you are basically right.  COVID has not affected me directly much at all.  I am very fortunate to live in a place where isolation is easy and quite pleasant.  I can walk down a 100 yard path to our wharf on a nice very sheltered bay on the Atlantic.  I can see the wide open ocean from there easily.  I am basically a 'home body' to begin with, so I do not go to the movies, to restaurants ... very rarely.  I have altered my shopping habits to go into town for provisions as rarely as possible.

On the other hand my wife's aunt and uncle both died from COVID.  We were not very close, but still.  I have known many friends to have gotten it (here and in Europe) and it was very touch and go for them and they are experiencing some long-term after effects.  I also know first hand some that have been vaccinated and have experienced very bad side effects.

So that gets me to my point, which is that perhaps you need to consider that your experience is not the experience of many others. My experience was not too bad either, but I can't let that discount the significantly worse experiences of countless others, then, now or going forward. The pandemic has been brutal, regardless of how sheltered I have been from it.

[triumph_communes]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

That's the whole point of the vaccine. Not getting back to normal is how you compound the tragedy of the pandemic by crippling the global economy again. A lot of pain and suffering was caused by the measures that were required to suppress the spread before the vaccine. The vaccine is supposed to prevent that from happening again, but it doesn't work if people don't use it.

Getting back to normal is the goal. The alternative is more pain and suffering.

The vaccine is just going to prevent deaths. It’s a respiratory disease — it’s not going to stop transmission. If this hasn’t been clear you’ve been wishful thinking and not listening to the unbiased scientists this whole time. 
 

There is a good argument we should have not done anything significant and let it run it’s course and we’d be better off. Just quarantine the elderly. Didn’t help standard medical protocol accelerated people’s deaths early on.

There are countries like Sweden who followed this approach on and they’re doing fine. 

[MattPie]

Just now, triumph_communes said:

The vaccine is just going to prevent deaths. It’s a respiratory disease — it’s not going to stop transmission. If this hasn’t been clear you’ve been wishful thinking and not listening to the unbiased scientists this whole time. 
 

There is a good argument we should have not done anything significant and let it run it’s course and we’d be better off. Just quarantine the elderly. Didn’t help standard medical protocol accelerated people’s deaths early on.

There are countries like Sweden who followed this approach on and they’re doing fine. 

Indeed: https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/swedens-pandemic-experiment

Quote

Tegnell’s prediction of a tapering epidemic curve and quickly-attained immunity never came to pass. Sweden’s per-capita case counts and death rates have been many times higher than any of its Nordic neighbors, all of which imposed lockdowns, travel bans, and limited gatherings early on. Over all in Sweden, thirteen thousand people have died from COVID-19. In Norway, which has a population that is half the size of Sweden’s, and where stricter lockdowns were enforced, about seven hundred people have died.

 

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

There is a good argument we should have not done anything significant and let it run it’s course and we’d be better off. Just quarantine the elderly. Didn’t help standard medical protocol accelerated people’s deaths early on.

There are countries like Sweden who followed this approach on and they’re doing fine. 

to quote a movie... "see that, that's that bull$#!t right there." 

Edited August 26, 2021 by LGR4GM

[triumph_communes]

9 minutes ago, MattPie said:

Indeed: https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/swedens-pandemic-experiment

 

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2021/07/is-sweden-vindicated-on-covid/

[Eleven]

20 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Not even SabreSpace posters?  There are a few in this thread who seem quite sure about things.

We're quite sure that we need to listen to what 95%+ of scientists and doctors are saying rather than what facebook, Tik Tok, and certain entertainment personalities are saying, and that 's all.  You know those so-called "sovereign citizens" with their degrees from YouTube Law?  The people recommending against vaccination are pretty much the same.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Eleven

[Sabres Fan in NS]

18 minutes ago, darksabre said:

So that gets me to my point, which is that perhaps you need to consider that your experience is not the experience of many others. My experience was not too bad either, but I can't let that discount the significantly worse experiences of countless others, then, now or going forward. The pandemic has been brutal, regardless of how sheltered I have been from it.

I do know all that and appreciate that the vast majority of people out there have had a much worse go of it and it breaks my heart.  I don't think it had to be this bad.

[nucci]

19 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

The vaccine is just going to prevent deaths. It’s a respiratory disease — it’s not going to stop transmission. If this hasn’t been clear you’ve been wishful thinking and not listening to the unbiased scientists this whole time. 
 

There is a good argument we should have not done anything significant and let it run it’s course and we’d be better off. Just quarantine the elderly. Didn’t help standard medical protocol accelerated people’s deaths early on.

There are countries like Sweden who followed this approach on and they’re doing fine. 

Wrong about Sweden. Even their top people admitted it was a mistake what they did and didn't do