Wyldnwoody44 Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, darksabre said: The masks worked and the people who didn't want to use them were wrong. Strike 1. The people who didn't want to mask up are now opposed to the vaccine, which also works. Why should anyone take them seriously? We really shouldn't need to mandate any of this stuff. People should just be willing to do it. You yourself argued in favor of living for the moment, not letting fear keep you down. Is that not what people getting the vaccine are doing? Are they not living for the now and without fear? The vaccine, and the people who developed it, are just about as trustworthy as it gets. The risk is very low. Low enough that it doesn't make any sense to be afraid of it if it means getting back to living normal lives quicker. Im not so sure, the people not getting it I believe are still living without fear, just in a bit of an oppositional way, I work in health care, so for me even though I particularly didn't care about the shot, I got it because it makes sense for others considering my daily contact. As for the mandates, they can force a mask mandate, can they force a shot mandate?
Gatorman0519 Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 Everybody reads and article or a blog and thinks they are experts nowadays. It is mind boggling how certain political persuasions have influenced this pandemic. The fear and conspiracies are off the chain. Certain strains of politics have been reduced to never ending paranoia.
darksabre Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said: Im not so sure, the people not getting it I believe are still living without fear, just in a bit of an oppositional way, I work in health care, so for me even though I particularly didn't care about the shot, I got it because it makes sense for others considering my daily contact. As for the mandates, they can force a mask mandate, can they force a shot mandate? I don't know, honestly. I think about it how the police aren't technically allowed to take your blood for a drug test without a warrant. I don't know if the government can mandate that people get the shot. That's kinda why they're leaving it up to the private companies to force the issue. Then it becomes the Supreme Court's problem. 1
Marions Piazza Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 The Polio vaccine was never mandated Federally, but all 50 states and DC required Polio vaccines before any children could be allowed in public schools/daycares etc. According to the CDC, the US has been Polio free since 1979. From what I have read, most (denotes a lot but not everyone) all Americans wanted and supported the polio vaccine, it wasn't politicized the way Covid has been. What has changed so much in the US that we now have people believing the vaccine will kill us, or is some nefarious plot of the deep state, or has micro-chips, or covid was created by big pharma companies so they could make money in a vaccine etc etc?
darksabre Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Marions Piazza said: The Polio vaccine was never mandated Federally, but all 50 states and DC required Polio vaccines before any children could be allowed in public schools/daycares etc. According to the CDC, the US has been Polio free since 1979. From what I have read, most (denotes a lot but not everyone) all Americans wanted and supported the polio vaccine, it wasn't politicized the way Covid has been. What has changed so much in the US that we now have people believing the vaccine will kill us, or is some nefarious plot of the deep state, or has micro-chips, or covid was created by big pharma companies so they could make money in a vaccine etc etc? Privilege. We are blessed to live in what is possibly the healthiest era to be a human being in the first world. So many of the things that afflicted past generations are out of sight and out of mind. We really, truly, have no idea how good we have it. We don't know a world where life expectancy is a lot shorter, or where things like polio are common. And so we get confident and reckless. We think we're untouchable, and then something like a global pandemic comes along and, thanks to the miracles of modern medicine, manages to kill far fewer people than it would have otherwise, and that just ends up strengthening the cockiness. A lot of people have died from COVID, and yet it wasn't enough that support for the vaccine would be unanimous. The blessing and the curse of our immense privilege to exist in the time that we do. 2
Eleven Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 45 minutes ago, darksabre said: I don't know, honestly. I think about it how the police aren't technically allowed to take your blood for a drug test without a warrant. I don't know if the government can mandate that people get the shot. That's kinda why they're leaving it up to the private companies to force the issue. Then it becomes the Supreme Court's problem. Justice Barrett denied a petition seeking to set aside Indiana University's vaccine requirement today. The vaccine requirement remains. 1
darksabre Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, Eleven said: Justice Barrett denied a petition seeking to set aside Indiana University's vaccine requirement today. The vaccine requirement remains. That's interesting. A public university being allowed to enact a vaccine mandate. It looks like there's case law that supports Barrett letting it stand. "Lower courts have ruled against the students, citing a Supreme Court decision from 1905, which said that a state may require vaccines against smallpox."
nucci Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 virtually everyone hospitalized with covid and dying are not vaccinated. It's still not enough to convince people 1
Weave Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 1 minute ago, nucci said: virtually everyone hospitalized with covid and dying are not vaccinated. It's still not enough to convince people We are over 600,000 deaths into it and it’s still not enough. 2
darksabre Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 10 minutes ago, Weave said: We are over 600,000 deaths into it and it’s still not enough. I think if Delta starts killing kids people might care. Most vaccines in history were for diseases that afflicted the young. COVID not having much impact on kids has allowed a lot of people to more easily dismiss it.
Weave Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 Just now, darksabre said: I think if Delta starts killing kids people might care. Most vaccines in history were for diseases that afflicted the young. COVID not having much impact on kids has allowed a lot of people to more easily dismiss it. I think Sandy Hook has shown us that politics is more important than children anymore. 1
darksabre Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Weave said: I think Sandy Hook has shown us that politics is more important than children anymore. Fair enough.
fiftyone Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 2 hours ago, PASabreFan said: Are you claiming that they didn't test the vaccine on humans before releasing it under emergency authorization? Of course not. I'm claiming (stating?) that there's a clear distinction between FDA approval and emergency use, and much of that distinction is based on the rigorous testing and trials process that these vaccines have not gone through. 1
SwampD Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, fiftyone said: Of course not. I'm claiming (stating?) that there's a clear distinction between FDA approval and emergency use, and much of that distinction is based on the rigorous testing and trials process that these vaccines have not gone through. I don’t think this is correct. I thought these vaccines went through the exact same testing, but all the stages were done concurrently. They didn’t have to wait for one stage to be completed before they started the next one. That’s why it was approved for use so quickly. 1
darksabre Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 13 minutes ago, SwampD said: I don’t think this is correct. I thought these vaccines went through the exact same testing, but all the stages were done concurrently. They didn’t have to wait for one stage to be completed before they started the next one. That’s why it was approved for use so quickly. And to be fair, more vaccines (and new medical treatments in general) could likely be put together this quickly if the urgency required it. Vaccine development usually takes a loooot longer due to the lack of manpower and funding. But these pharma companies and world power governments threw all of the resources they could muster into the vaccine effort for a virus type that research had already done a lot of the work to figure out. It was unusual, but not inexplicable or problematic. Honestly, we just got really lucky.
Eleven Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, darksabre said: And to be fair, more vaccines (and new medical treatments in general) could likely be put together this quickly if the urgency required it. Vaccine development usually takes a loooot longer due to the lack of manpower and funding. But these pharma companies and world power governments threw all of the resources they could muster into the vaccine effort for a virus type that research had already done a lot of the work to figure out. It was unusual, but not inexplicable or problematic. Honestly, we just got really lucky. I don't think it was luck. I think multiple crack teams of scientists working around the clock and around the globe for a year can get a LOT of things done. Edited August 13, 2021 by Eleven 2
darksabre Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, Eleven said: I don't think it was luck. I think multiple crack teams of scientists working around the clock and around the globe for a year can get a LOT of things done. The fact that so much of the work had already been done on coronaviruses in general absolutely helped. If this situation had been some other newer, weirder virus, maybe we're still waiting on a vaccine. Right? Luck definitely played its part.
drnkirishone Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 here is a crazy idea. Lets reward people that get the vaccine. Federal and state tax credits seem like a good place to start. Health insurance companies could provide discounts on plans with proof of vaccination. 1
Stoner Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, darksabre said: The fact that so much of the work had already been done on coronaviruses in general absolutely helped. If this situation had been some other newer, weirder virus, maybe we're still waiting on a vaccine. Right? Luck definitely played its part. And the MRNA platform wasn't new. 1
fiftyone Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 38 minutes ago, SwampD said: I don’t think this is correct. I thought these vaccines went through the exact same testing, but all the stages were done concurrently. They didn’t have to wait for one stage to be completed before they started the next one. That’s why it was approved for use so quickly. If they went through the same testing concurrently, they would have been FDA approved and not emergency use. No? 1
darksabre Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 I'd like someone to give me a good reason why FDA approval is such a consequential yardstick. It's not like the FDA has never approved things that are bad for you...
fiftyone Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 34 minutes ago, darksabre said: I'd like someone to give me a good reason why FDA approval is such a consequential yardstick. It's not like the FDA has never approved things that are bad for you... That's like saying "you still get sick even while vaccinated." Do you think we're better off with or without regulatory approval? Perfect is not the enemy of good.
SwampD Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 1 hour ago, fiftyone said: If they went through the same testing concurrently, they would have been FDA approved and not emergency use. No? Good question. I don’t know. Maybe time is a factor and they just aren’t fully approved yet. 40 minutes ago, darksabre said: I'd like someone to give me a good reason why FDA approval is such a consequential yardstick. It's not like the FDA has never approved things that are bad for you... The FDA is a good thing. Like, really good thing. Like, sets the standard around the world kinda thing. Pretty sure we don’t want to go back to bone shavings in the coconut, and missing digits in the sausage.
darksabre Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 21 minutes ago, fiftyone said: That's like saying "you still get sick even while vaccinated." Do you think we're better off with or without regulatory approval? Perfect is not the enemy of good. 12 minutes ago, SwampD said: Good question. I don’t know. Maybe time is a factor and they just aren’t fully approved yet. The FDA is a good thing. Like, really good thing. Like, sets the standard around the world kinda thing. Pretty sure we don’t want to go back to bone shavings in the coconut, and missing digits in the sausage. I'm not saying it's bad or anything, I just think it's a somewhat arbitrary line to draw in the sand for people who are short on trust for exactly the kind of things the FDA is.
darksabre Posted August 13, 2021 Report Posted August 13, 2021 Also, does anyone think the FDA isn't going to approve the vaccines now that so many people have gotten them? This is a rubber stamp.
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