COVID-19

[Scottysabres]

Just now, SwampD said:

Not let them go to school, daycare,... like they already do with other vaccines. Not sure why the jump right to goon squads.

Yes, there could be a sloping escalation scale. Deprive them of services their tax dollars pay for, you could even go as far as depriving them of gainful employment, starve them out, as it were.

[miles]

I also think one of the biggest factors is the vaccine eliminates the ability to get "hidden" covid. Where you dont have symptoms but still have it. 

I think its the reason its spread so fast and out of control. If you have the flu, you know fmright away and you dont go out to parties and such.

Covid is a sneaky bitch

[Doohicksie]

1 minute ago, Scottysabres said:

Yes, there could be a sloping escalation scale. Deprive them of services their tax dollars pay for, you could even go as far as depriving them of gainful employment, starve them out, as it were.

Works for me.

[SwampD]

3 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

Yes, there could be a sloping escalation scale. Deprive them of services their tax dollars pay for, you could even go as far as depriving them of gainful employment, starve them out, as it were.

So now we're on to the slippery slope technique. 

[Scottysabres]

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

Works for me.

Ok, so, we have a benchmark. Suffering, even on a starvation style scale is acceptable, but not home invasion and assault. So we've drawn a line?

[Doohicksie]

If you say so.

[Scottysabres]

1 minute ago, SwampD said:

So now we're on to the slippery slope technique. 

I'm sorry, must be a trigger word. Does curved bell better suit the conversation? I'm honestly open to the dialog, nit-picking the words aside. The question still remains.

[SwampD]

2 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

I'm sorry, must be a trigger word. Does curved bell better suit the conversation? I'm honestly open to the dialog, nit-picking the words aside. The question still remains.

Not a trigger word, just a disingenuous argument, imo.

I already had to show proof that my daughter got the chicken pox vaccine in order for to go to school (and we already had a history with vaccines.) At no time did I think that if we didn't get it, I was certain to have a fall from economic grace and end up picking rotten heads of cabbage to eat out of the Shoprite dumpster.

[miles]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cdc-announce-fully-vaccinated-people-171653579.html

 

Although I think the article is written by a 5 year old, considering the cdc is going to announce mask dropping everywhere for vaccinated people except in healthcare situations.  The author puts in there 2 cents saying you should still wear it indoors, contradicting the entire point of the article 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

42 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Your body, your choice ends at the point where you can kill someone by coughing on them.

If you are fully vaccinated what are you worried about?  You should feel comfortable in a closed room full of non-vaccinated people, right?

Maybe the fact that they have not been around enough to know how / if they work?

[miles]

1 minute ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

If you are fully vaccinated what are you worried about?  You should feel comfortable in a closed room full of non-vaccinated people, right?

Maybe the fact that they have not been around enough to know how / if they work?

I still have this worry. You can tell me it works but i didn't trust it until the numbers were going down. in nj the numbers of cases are almost nonexistent. that is goid enough for me. i will still wear masks for a while but im feeling pretty good about the vaccine. 

I Been vaccinated for about 2 months now

[Ducky]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

It's not your body your choice because let's say a hypothetical you isn't vaccinated and you pass it on... you now have taken your body and forced that choice onto someone else. 

Better yet what happens if Covid mutates because it has enough vectors to keep spreading, not your body or choice anymore as you spread that mutation around starting this entire GD thing over again. 

You in this necessary is a hypothetical person, not you specifically Scotty. 

this

 

[Ducky]

2 hours ago, fiftyone said:

To play devils advocate here -- is it not true (honestly am asking, don't know) that the vaccine doesn't stop anyone from getting the virus or even passing it on? It just prevents you from dying, essentially? I believe that's what i've read.

Assuming that's true, doesn't that change the thought process of vaccinated vs not? Once you've been vaccinated, you will (probably) no longer die from the virus. But you can still get it and pass it along, whether that be from another vaccinated person or an unvaccinated person?

"Germs can travel quickly through a community and make a lot of people sick. If enough people get sick, it can lead to an outbreak. But when enough people are vaccinated against a certain disease, the germs can’t travel as easily from person to person — and the entire community is less likely to get the disease.
That means even people who can’t get vaccinated will have some protection from getting sick. And if a person does get sick, there’s less chance of an outbreak because it’s harder for the disease to spread. Eventually, the disease becomes rare — and sometimes, it’s wiped out altogether."
Smallpox has been pretty much wiped out.

[Scottysabres]

1 hour ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

If you are fully vaccinated what are you worried about?  You should feel comfortable in a closed room full of non-vaccinated people, right?

Maybe the fact that they have not been around enough to know how / if they work?

a portion of my point, thank you NS.

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

If you are fully vaccinated what are you worried about? 

Other people.  Do you not care about others besides yourself?

[Doohicksie]

31 minutes ago, Ducky said:

But when enough people are vaccinated against a certain disease, the germs can’t travel as easily from person to person — and the entire community is less likely to get the disease.  That means even people who can’t get vaccinated will have some protection from getting sick.

Repeated for emphasis.

[LTS]

4 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

Cole Beasley is apparently looking to take some heat off of his QB

 

 

I think his question, in general, has a purpose.  However, not all ages can be vaccinated yet.  I'm not worried about those who do not want to be, but those under age of 12 still cannot be, right?

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Your body, your choice ends at the point where you can kill someone by coughing on them.

It's an interesting thought. However, before COVID there were people who I could have killed by coughing on them. I could have spread the flu to a person who was highly susceptible and they could have died.  The transmission rate of COVID certainly heightens the risk, but even if we beat COVID there can be another virus that pops up.  At some point, if you are arguing to the binary end of the spectrum, you end up advocating for complete isolation.  It's unreasonable, but because so it also means that the answer lies somewhere in the infinite number of possibilities.  As such, you will have differing opinions.

 Does anyone have a claim that says, your inability to fight a virus (even a potential unknown virus) is your problem and that I should not have to alter my lifestyle to accommodate you?   Fundamentally both sides are arguing that the other should change their lifestyle to accommodate the other. Fundamentally, both are saying it's easier for the other to comply and it's no big deal.  Fundamentally both are right, but refuse to accept it.  The argument boils down to you believe one thing, and someone believes something else. Both use the same arguments and counter-points. 

There's already plenty of evidence linking depression and other mental health defects to the isolation and change.  Are those more harmful?  Perhaps in not in the short term, but in the long run?  Clearly we don't know, but I think it's a reasonable thing to consider.

 

39 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Other people.  Do you not care about others besides yourself?

Is that the real question here?  Is there a counter that says, "Do I care about others more than myself?"  Where's the balance?  Given that each of us are wired differently it's very hard to apply any solid rule here.  We've certainly all read stories of people who have gone to extremes to help others and put themselves at risk, damage their own health, etc.  Call it the extreme of selflessness.  We clearly also know the opposite stories.

We all have some level of where we place ourselves relative to the needs of society.  But the hard question is, are we justified in judging others for where they place themselves?  How much of it do they have control over?  Do I have control over how I see things or am I wired this way?  Perhaps with a lot of mental work I could alter the way I am to accommodate the way someone else wants me to be?  Perhaps the opposite is true.

Overall we need to stop trying to mandate our expectations and our feelings on others as though everyone else is the same.  We need to be willing to take the time and understand why someone thinks differently and sometimes that's not accomplished within two forum posts or a few tweets. 

----------------------

Earlier the CDC opened the ultimate can of worms.  It's been coming.  No masks required indoors for fully vaccinated people.

The immediate questions I have:

Do you get proofed going into a building?
Given the ease in creating a false vaccination record, does it even make sense to proof people?
If you can't reliable determine who is or isn't vaccinated, then why issue this mandate?

The answer I come up with is that somewhere people have read the temperature of society and they realize people are about to blow up.  Those who have been vaccinated want to have some freedom from having done it and those who haven't never cared about masks in the first place. The inevitable was this situation. Just open it up and see what happens.

Some businesses will continue to require masks and people will have to make conscious decisions on whether they want to comply or not.  Businesses will have to hope that enough who want to comply will to keep them in business.  Now a business that does not mandate a mask may still see people wear one inside because they'll have a right to do so.  There will be some that would avoid that business because the do allow masks.

Ultimately, I see even more unrest over the situation until we finally find a way to get over it.  The problem I will continue to have is that we cannot vaccinate everyone yet.  There will always be some who cannot get it for some reason, and that's truly unfortunate.  However, until everyone who wants it can get it, we really need to have some level of caution.

 

[fiftyone]

59 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Repeated for emphasis.

Who in this country who wants to be vaccinated can't be at this point? I'm assuming you don't mean children because the data has shown that the virus is not really a concern for them I believe.

[Doohicksie]

47 minutes ago, fiftyone said:

Who in this country who wants to be vaccinated can't be at this point? I'm assuming you don't mean children because the data has shown that the virus is not really a concern for them I believe.

Referring to people who due to whatever medical reason can't get vaccines.

[Curt]

44 minutes ago, LTS said:

Earlier the CDC opened the ultimate can of worms.  It's been coming.  No masks required indoors for fully vaccinated people.

The immediate questions I have:

Do you get proofed going into a building?
Given the ease in creating a false vaccination record, does it even make sense to proof people?
If you can't reliable determine who is or isn't vaccinated, then why issue this mandate?

The answer I come up with is that somewhere people have read the temperature of society and they realize people are about to blow up.  Those who have been vaccinated want to have some freedom from having done it and those who haven't never cared about masks in the first place. The inevitable was this situation. Just open it up and see what happens.

Some businesses will continue to require masks and people will have to make conscious decisions on whether they want to comply or not.  Businesses will have to hope that enough who want to comply will to keep them in business.  Now a business that does not mandate a mask may still see people wear one inside because they'll have a right to do so.  There will be some that would avoid that business because the do allow masks.

Ultimately, I see even more unrest over the situation until we finally find a way to get over it.  The problem I will continue to have is that we cannot vaccinate everyone yet.  There will always be some who cannot get it for some reason, and that's truly unfortunate.  However, until everyone who wants it can get it, we really need to have some level of caution.

I think you got off track here.  The CDC does not issue government mandates about whether masks are required or not.  It’s a medical recommendation.  It applies as a guide for people to follow in private settings as much as for businesses in the public.

I don’t think people are reaching a breaking point.  I think most everyone has gotten accustomed to wearing a mask, even if they aren’t fond of it.  It’s just the 1 in 100 who are adamant about not wearing one.

With case numbers dropping, vaccinated numbers rising, things slowly opening up, and restrictions gradually lessening, I feel like people are under less tension about all of this than they have been in quite some time.  I just don’t think we are at an extremely high level of unrest right now.  Not at all.

I absolutely do not think that the CDC issued this recommendation in order to avert some sort of societal breakdown.

51 minutes ago, fiftyone said:

Who in this country who wants to be vaccinated can't be at this point? I'm assuming you don't mean children because the data has shown that the virus is not really a concern for them I believe.

Children do get the virus, and can pass it on to others.  Vaccinations for children would be helpful in preventing the spread of Covid.

[LTS]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

I think you got off track here.  The CDC does not issue government mandates about whether masks are required or not.  It’s a medical recommendation.  It applies as a guide for people to follow in private settings as much as for businesses in the public.

I don’t think people are reaching a breaking point.  I think most everyone has gotten accustomed to wearing a mask, even if they aren’t fond of it.  It’s just the 1 in 100 who are adamant about not wearing one.

With case numbers dropping, vaccinated numbers rising, things slowly opening up, and restrictions gradually lessening, I feel like people are under less tension about all of this than they have been in quite some time.  I just don’t think we are at an extremely high level of unrest right now.  Not at all.

I absolutely do not think that the CDC issued this recommendation in order to avert some sort of societal breakdown.

You and I definitely are in very different circles then with regards to the mask situation. I would imagine that there will be a large population of the US that will continue to wear masks for the foreseeable future and beyond.  A lot of the people I am around are far more, "I'm done with these masks" variety.  Even a person I know that barely went outside until he was vaccinated told me the other day they just want the mask mandate gone.  It really caught my attention because this is a person who really took isolation to the extreme. Sure he's an anecdotal reference, but the vast majority of people I am around would ditch the mask in a moment if not "regulated" to wear one.

I know the CDC doesn't issue government mandates.  A lot of people look at what the CDC recommends and run with it.  The CDC saying this puts pressure on political leaders to adhere to medical guidance.  Most of the signs I see say "In accordance with CDC recommendation and government regulations."  It's not a nothing burger of a recommendation.  They issued the recommendation for outdoors a few weeks back and already parents I am around at high school baseball are pushing school officials on the mask mandate (school grounds policy).

If you think the country isn't at a high level of unrest we might read different news.  Chip shortages, inflation, gas shortages, panic buying, an uptick in shootings, and more... all by products of the impacts of isolation and the policies put in place for COVID.  I'm not arguing that the regulations should have never been put in place, but it's taking its toll (as expected) and its going to get worse before it gets better. I'd really hope it doesn't, but I'm not able to muster the confidence that it won't and I think things like the CDC recommendation will create further polarization potential.

 

[Eleven]

This is really freaking simple.

1.  If you are a healthy adult/near adult over 16, get vaccinated.  (Not sure on the 12+ situation yet but that's looking pretty good, too.)

1a.  If you are in the EXTREMELY SMALL subset of people who have religious objections to vaccinations--and I mean EXTREMELY SMALL like even Christian Scientists say it's ok--just isolate.  You've probably pretty much done that already anyway.

2.  If you are unable to vaccinate for medical reasons, you probably have a lot of other stuff going on, and we'll pray for you, and please remain at home and be safe.

3.  If you don't think the vaccine is effective or safe, look toward the billions of people across the globe who have received it, and the effective rate.  Don't be deliberately simple, even if you're an NFL quarterback or receiver. If that doesn't convince you, look at the billions of people who are scared to death because they CAN'T GET IT. Stop being spoiled. Get the vaccine.

4.  If you're just an anti-vaxxer, please, please go live on an island somewhere.  We live in a society.  We make sacrifices for society all the time.  We agree with those sacrifices sometimes and we don't sometimes, but we do it because we live in a society.  We have speed limits.  Driver licenses.  Smoking laws.  Regulations on where you can have a beer.  Regulations on where you can shoot a gun.  Shut up and take your shot or go away.

 

Simple.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Eleven

[Curt]

19 minutes ago, LTS said:

You and I definitely are in very different circles then with regards to the mask situation. I would imagine that there will be a large population of the US that will continue to wear masks for the foreseeable future and beyond.  A lot of the people I am around are far more, "I'm done with these masks" variety.  Even a person I know that barely went outside until he was vaccinated told me the other day they just want the mask mandate gone.  It really caught my attention because this is a person who really took isolation to the extreme. Sure he's an anecdotal reference, but the vast majority of people I am around would ditch the mask in a moment if not "regulated" to wear one.

I know the CDC doesn't issue government mandates.  A lot of people look at what the CDC recommends and run with it.  The CDC saying this puts pressure on political leaders to adhere to medical guidance.  Most of the signs I see say "In accordance with CDC recommendation and government regulations."  It's not a nothing burger of a recommendation.  They issued the recommendation for outdoors a few weeks back and already parents I am around at high school baseball are pushing school officials on the mask mandate (school grounds policy).

If you think the country isn't at a high level of unrest we might read different news.  Chip shortages, inflation, gas shortages, panic buying, an uptick in shootings, and more... all by products of the impacts of isolation and the policies put in place for COVID.  I'm not arguing that the regulations should have never been put in place, but it's taking its toll (as expected) and its going to get worse before it gets better. I'd really hope it doesn't, but I'm not able to muster the confidence that it won't and I think things like the CDC recommendation will create further polarization potential.

 

I agree that most everyone would ditch the mask if they thought it was no longer needed.  I don’t think anyone actually likes them.  That doesn’t mean that people are on the verge of freaking out.

To me it seems that people on average are much less uneasy and much less panicked than they were a year ago.

I just don’t see the overall mood of the country(s) as at max tension.  Things seemed to have calmed down a lot.

Where are there actual gas shortages?  Have you seen any gas stations with sold out signs?  I haven’t.  Heard a couple people at work mention this today but that was the first I’d heard about it.

Panic buying and grocery store shortages were commonplace for a few months last year.  That stuff isn’t happening now.

Didnt know anything about a chip shortage until I just googled it.

Am I living in a bubble???  Has this stuff been affecting the day to day lives of a lot of you people out there???

Edited May 14, 2021 by Curt

[dudacek]

I wonder if the circles of “Men should be free not to wear masks if they chose” and “Men should be free to use women’s washrooms if they choose” ever overlap.

Edited May 14, 2021 by dudacek

[Eleven]

9 hours ago, Curt said:

I agree that most everyone would ditch the mask if they thought it was no longer needed.  I don’t think anyone actually likes them.  That doesn’t mean that people are on the verge of freaking out.

To me it seems that people on average are much less uneasy and much less panicked than they were a year ago.

I just don’t see the overall mood of the country(s) as at max tension.  Things seemed to have calmed down a lot.

Where are there actual gas shortages?  Have you seen any gas stations with sold out signs?  I haven’t.  Heard a couple people at work mention this today but that was the first I’d heard about it.

Panic buying and grocery store shortages were commonplace for a few months last year.  That stuff isn’t happening now.

Didnt know anything about a chip shortage until I just googled it.

Am I living in a bubble???  Has this stuff been affecting the day to day lives of a lot you people out there???

Hey man, I'm just going to address the gas and chip things, neither of which have that much to do with COVID.

The gas thing is real; I have employees in the mid- and south-Atlantic regions who are out.  Panic buying.  Not COVID-related.

The chip thing, I think, has a lot more to to with crypto-mining than it does with COVID.  See Doohickie's explanation below.

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

I wonder if the circles of “Men should be free to not to wear masks if they chose” and “Men should be free to use women’s washrooms if they choose” ever overlap.

@That Aud Smellposited this upthread, and I think he's right.  And then @SDScemented it with the "we" v. "me" thing.  Again, we live in a society.  We have to do what's best for 99% of the people 99% of the time.  And that means getting a vaccine right now.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Eleven