COVID-19

[Doohicksie]

On 5/26/2020 at 4:21 PM, Sabel79 said:

I wear my bank robber mask at work... which is hilarious if you think about what I do for a living... 

Please, no comments on my do-it-yourself hairdo... still gonna be awhile before I’m in the barbershop.  

I'm just letting mine grow out.  Thinking eventually a ponytail.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Doohickie
Sorry that picture was so big!

[Tondas]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

I'm just letting mine grow out.  Thinking eventually a ponytail.

Forget the hair @Doohickie, that's the "executive stare" I've never learned in my life.  I'm retired, but seeing that stare, I'm putting myself on a letter on reprimand.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Tondas

[Doohicksie]

No, that's just my "I do this because my smile on demand sucks" look.

 

You can knock that reprimand down to a warning.

[North Buffalo]

Here is mine:  take reprimand: https://fischerwilliamsphoto.smugmug.com/Corona/n-GnRmQS/i-nS7zhrr 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by North Buffalo

[Stoner]

You look like Pope Francis!

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Even CPAs are rockin' that COVID look ...

[LTS]

On 5/26/2020 at 3:36 PM, PASabreFan said:

Which masks are you questioning the efficacy of? An N95 mask is an extremely effective way of preventing healthcare workers from getting infected. An antibody study of downstate healthcare workers found only 12% had antibodies. I would assume those masks are also very effective at limiting what you spew out. Surgical masks are said to reduce your risk to 30% of what it would be without one. Cloth masks even less of course. No one said they were the answer, just that they help, probably a lot.

You're not mentioning that studies show that masks not only reduce the distance droplets can travel, but the number of droplets themselves. You're also not putting the church choir event in context. It was early in the pandemic, and they thought they were doing everything right by standing apart and cleaning their hands, etc. The CDC was not recommending masks at that time. They thought they were safe.

It's so odd. What is it that people so object to about wearing a mask when they and others are at real risk? Are we nothing more than adult children who have to defy our parents? Is it vanity? Machismo? Politics? Paranoia?

The cloth masks that people are making at home.  I'm not questioning those that have been tested and proven to be effective. The public isn't being asked to wear those masks that are proven effective. 

You are right I am not linking to the stories. You can easily search the Internet for many credible sources. The last link I posted spoke to analysis of COVID numbers and ended up in the politics section, despite not being at all political.  I'm not interested in posting links anymore. I read an article on CNN today that said cloth masks are 50% effective.  Of course it did so with a quote from a researcher and no link to the study that supported that claim.  At a minimum, the information I am referring to at least speaks to the studies that are being conducted so we can understand why they are claiming what they claim.  I even mentioned (or thought I did) some studies show that masks aren't reducing the droplets but they are reducing the distance they travel, which, if they immediately fall to the ground and stay there is a good thing, I suppose. But I mentioned air circulation systems could cause them to be carried further, right?

The church choir was in response to Mark, not in response to an actual incident.

The response about wearing or not wearing a mask is very much comfort.  But it's also questioning whether it has an efficacy whatsoever. Am I doing something just because someone said to do it or does it actually have value?  If I saw that these cloth masks actually worked, definitively, I might change my mind. However, I've not seen it. There's as much information that points counter to that and it's not coming from off the wall sources.  

As I asked, and so far people have conveniently avoided... if you have a 75% chance to be exposed to the virus, even if people are wearing masks, are you venturing into that venue?  What percentage risk is enough for you?  For anyone?

[Weave]

38 minutes ago, LTS said:

As I asked, and so far people have conveniently avoided... if you have a 75% chance to be exposed to the virus, even if people are wearing masks, are you venturing into that venue?  What percentage risk is enough for you?  For anyone?

Question 1, hell no I wouldn't go in that venue.

Question 2, if they put actual, data driven numbers to it, it might keep me at home permanently.  The last thing I need caught in my head is that a trip somewhere had a 1 in 20 chance of risking exposure, or whatever number.

[Stoner]

27 minutes ago, LTS said:

The cloth masks that people are making at home.  I'm not questioning those that have been tested and proven to be effective. The public isn't being asked to wear those masks that are proven effective. 

You are right I am not linking to the stories. You can easily search the Internet for many credible sources. The last link I posted spoke to analysis of COVID numbers and ended up in the politics section, despite not being at all political.  I'm not interested in posting links anymore. I read an article on CNN today that said cloth masks are 50% effective.  Of course it did so with a quote from a researcher and no link to the study that supported that claim.  At a minimum, the information I am referring to at least speaks to the studies that are being conducted so we can understand why they are claiming what they claim.  I even mentioned (or thought I did) some studies show that masks aren't reducing the droplets but they are reducing the distance they travel, which, if they immediately fall to the ground and stay there is a good thing, I suppose. But I mentioned air circulation systems could cause them to be carried further, right?

The church choir was in response to Mark, not in response to an actual incident.

The response about wearing or not wearing a mask is very much comfort.  But it's also questioning whether it has an efficacy whatsoever. Am I doing something just because someone said to do it or does it actually have value?  If I saw that these cloth masks actually worked, definitively, I might change my mind. However, I've not seen it. There's as much information that points counter to that and it's not coming from off the wall sources.  

As I asked, and so far people have conveniently avoided... if you have a 75% chance to be exposed to the virus, even if people are wearing masks, are you venturing into that venue?  What percentage risk is enough for you?  For anyone?

I'm not sure how you could sneeze while wearing a cloth mask and not stop any droplets. The cloth would have to catch the biggest droplets.

Maybe the best way to think about it is two people, one with Covid (asymptomatic, let's assume), standing three feet apart having a 10-minute conversation. What's the risk of the uninfected person having droplets land directly in his or her mouth or breathing in droplets? I have no idea how to quantify that. Maybe the risk isn't super high, but maybe it's statistically significant (10%). Now, what's the risk if both people are wearing cloth masks? The risk of having droplets land in his or her mouth goes to practically 0. The risk of breathing in droplets is cut significantly. The overall risk is not zero, but it's much lower. That's the benefit. What is the cost? Is there any cost?

This seems like common sense. I think we're all guilty of overthinking things.

Sorry for mixing up the church stories. There was a story about a church choir super spreader event.

75% chance of being exposed even with masks? No way I'm going in there. The five weeks I was off work, the riskiest thing I did was have pizza delivered. I used InstaCart for shopping. Starting in late April I began venturing out. I had to. I have no family here, and my friends either are in high risk groups like me or have young children, and I wouldn't ask them to assume ANY risk to help me out. The risk I now accept is the risk of going into a store for 10 minutes wearing an N95 mask (brother sent it used after wearing it during a home remodeling) with other shoppers few in number and masked (mostly homemade or surgical). I deem that to be very low risk. I walk outside without a mask, but now I'm reconsidering that, because what if someone else is at even higher risk than I am, and I pass by too closely? I have to practice what I preach, no?

[LTS]

13 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I'm not sure how you could sneeze while wearing a cloth mask and not stop any droplets. The cloth would have to catch the biggest droplets.

Maybe the best way to think about it is two people, one with Covid (asymptomatic, let's assume), standing three feet apart having a 10-minute conversation. What's the risk of the uninfected person having droplets land directly in his or her mouth or breathing in droplets? I have no idea how to quantify that. Maybe the risk isn't super high, but maybe it's statistically significant (10%). Now, what's the risk if both people are wearing cloth masks? The risk of having droplets land in his or her mouth goes to practically 0. The risk of breathing in droplets is cut significantly. The overall risk is not zero, but it's much lower. That's the benefit. What is the cost? Is there any cost?

This seems like common sense. I think we're all guilty of overthinking things.

Sorry for mixing up the church stories. There was a story about a church choir super spreader event.

75% chance of being exposed even with masks? No way I'm going in there. The five weeks I was off work, the riskiest thing I did was have pizza delivered. I used InstaCart for shopping. Starting in late April I began venturing out. I had to. I have no family here, and my friends either are in high risk groups like me or have young children, and I wouldn't ask them to assume ANY risk to help me out. The risk I now accept is the risk of going into a store for 10 minutes wearing an N95 mask (brother sent it used after wearing it during a home remodeling) with other shoppers few in number and masked (mostly homemade or surgical). I deem that to be very low risk. I walk outside without a mask, but now I'm reconsidering that, because what if someone else is at even higher risk than I am, and I pass by too closely? I have to practice what I preach, no?

Yes, I think there is no question a mask will stop something.  It's not really the large droplets that are the risk, but the smaller ones that bleed out from the mask.  It's not just a sneeze or a cough but a constant breathing.  Take a grocery store with 100 people in it, continually.  While a mask is being worn, it's still the efficacy of the mask * 100, times the number of people who have been in the store before, etc.  To me, that's a risk of being exposed that is fairly significant.  It's the perception that counts. People need to feel like they are being protected.

Is there a cost of wearing a mask?  Potentially.  If it's ineffective and people believe it is effective then the cost could very well be people engaging in activities they would have avoided.  For me it's not entirely "should we be forced to wear masks".  There is a part of me that pushes against that.  The bigger part is questioning the efficacy of these masks and to what extent they are effective.

I don't think it's overthinking things to want to know how effective the measures taken prove to be. Scientists are studying these things in an effort to understand. Are they guilty of overthinking it?  I don't think so.  I think they are keenly interested in knowing as well.

At this point so much has been made about the efficiency of these masks that if something were to prove the opposite it could cause significant hysteria.  I consider that in wanting to know because the last thing I want is the powers that be doubling down on something like that. (I don't mean the President). It's happened before, it's not out of the question.

You have the N95 mask, that helps you immensely.  As for outdoor transmittal I think back to the link you shared (that was widely shared from what I saw) and I believe heartily in that information.  Perhaps because I want to, but to me, common sense says, if you are outdoors, where few people travel, your risks should be near zero.  If they aren't then how could a supermarket ever be considered safe? 

 

[Taro T]

For me, when outside or in my home, no mask.  When in a store, mask (technically respirator that's several years old that had primarily been used when working with chemicals or in very dusty environments or those w/ very high allergen counts) until back outside.  When ordering food, even outdoors, or waiting to get into a store, or near old people, wear the mask.  (And full disclosure, realize the respirator doesn't have a true clean seal as won't get rid of the scruff which definitely effects the seal between the mask & skin.  But don't have any good actual masks, so figure it's better than just cloth, though possibly not better than 2 layer cloth w/ paper towel or better yet hepa filter between the layers.)

But am curious if we'll see people getting other respiratory illnesses from wearing masks & then not cleaning them properly; putting them away still damp and growing molds & mildew & the like in the masks.  Especially curious about that for cloth homemade masks that are minimally effective when worn & cleaned properly.

[Ogre]

2 hours ago, LTS said:

At this point so much has been made about the efficiency of these masks that if something were to prove the opposite it could cause significant hysteria

There is literally a mountain of information out there. You won’t find it on SS or FB. Public and private entities both have been in hot pursuit of worker protection via masks. The ACGIH (American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienist) is a non profit that does a ton of research. They are user friendly and encourage you to use their info. 

https://www.acgih.org/

NIOSH (National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health) is one of the public agencies that approves the PPE for use. N95 is a NIOSH rating for example. They are hand in hand with the CDC. Your OSHA mandated PPE needs a NIOSH rating.

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/index.htm

The OSH Act was signed into law by Nixon in 1970. It’s an Act of Congress. The administration acts as a non profit. OSHA fines do not fund OSHA. Shouldn’t we listen to their recommendations? 
https://www.osha.gov/

I’ve included a link to each of the organizations mentioned and a link to “What workers and employers need to know about Covid-19 and cloth face coverings”. It’s a draft of a possible new OSHA standard (federal law) based on decades worth of research. 

https://gacc.nifc.gov/nrcc/dispatch/equipment_supplies/agree-contract/contractor_updates/20200502_NIOSH_OSHA_Cloth_Face_Coverings_Guidance_final.pdf

All of this information has been known to be the truth as per the federal government for decades. Why are people suddenly doubting them now?

Edited May 28, 2020 by Ogre

[Ogre]

That unique mask I’m wearing in my pic is an AOSaftey Pleats Plus. They no longer make them. The downside of the mask is the condensation that builds up inside, making it difficult to breathe through (part of the reason N95 construction masks have an exhaust valve). I’ve only encountered this problem with the hands on training where I’m working up a sweat and breathing heavily. They were designed for the job site so they fail on that account. Lecturing in front of a class, it was ideal. 

[Zamboni]

Wife and I have been wearing sanding and fiberglass N95 compliant white masks. When We started using them while visiting stores, we had 7 masks. my supply is down to two left. I can’t find any supply anywhere to restock. I may change up to a cloth mask after I’m out. Or those cheap ass paper masks. My wife can get those as needed, since she works at Roswell. Not sure which of paper vs. cloth would be more effective.

We wear masks when going into all stores. We never wear them outside walking, running, biking, working around the house inside and out, or the occasional visit to the parents. If we visit, we keep at a safe distance from them. 
We still see people in stores with no mask on once in a while. Stores are definitely not enforcing their own (and Cuomo’s) “must have a mask on in our store” policy. 

[Doohicksie]

8 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Even CPAs are rockin' that COVID look ...

Looking good, my friend.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

9 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Looking good, my friend.

Thank you, my dear.  The lack of face-to-face meetings, which I am completely in favour of becoming a permanent thing, has led me to bad habits ... not shaving everyday and my COVID hair.  

I actually like my hair, as dies my wife, who would be doing any 'at home' trims.  She is actually good at it, if she follows the last cut from my barber of 20+ years.

My girfriend says that I should never cut my hair, not sure of the motivation for that comment.  Same comment from all my boyfriends.

[LTS]

19 hours ago, Ogre said:

There is literally a mountain of information out there. You won’t find it on SS or FB. Public and private entities both have been in hot pursuit of worker protection via masks. The ACGIH (American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienist) is a non profit that does a ton of research. They are user friendly and encourage you to use their info. 

https://www.acgih.org/

NIOSH (National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health) is one of the public agencies that approves the PPE for use. N95 is a NIOSH rating for example. They are hand in hand with the CDC. Your OSHA mandated PPE needs a NIOSH rating.

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/index.htm

The OSH Act was signed into law by Nixon in 1970. It’s an Act of Congress. The administration acts as a non profit. OSHA fines do not fund OSHA. Shouldn’t we listen to their recommendations? 
https://www.osha.gov/

I’ve included a link to each of the organizations mentioned and a link to “What workers and employers need to know about Covid-19 and cloth face coverings”. It’s a draft of a possible new OSHA standard (federal law) based on decades worth of research. 

https://gacc.nifc.gov/nrcc/dispatch/equipment_supplies/agree-contract/contractor_updates/20200502_NIOSH_OSHA_Cloth_Face_Coverings_Guidance_final.pdf

All of this information has been known to be the truth as per the federal government for decades. Why are people suddenly doubting them now?

I am not questioning these masks.  I am questioning the cloth masks that people are wearing around in public. The ones that, depending on the material, the layers, the fit, seal, etc. are all basically unproven to provide any meaningful protection. 

Your last link is no longer valid so I can't review.

10/2017 - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24229526/ - Conclusion: Our findings suggest that a homemade mask should only be considered as a last resort to prevent droplet transmission from infected individuals, but it would be better than no protection.

These days there are new studies coming out all the time that point to masks being effective, or not. It's really not about me wearing a mask so much as asking, does it even matter? If they are proven ineffective or for the most part ineffective then a lot of people will be walking out into the world with a false sense of security about how well protected they actually are from this virus.  If you have concerns over being infected, do masks really make it okay for you?  I don't have concerns, but the question isn't about me.  Let's say I wear a mask and ultimately infect someone because I believed it was effective.  Do I get a pass on "involuntary manslaughter"?  Is it okay that I was wearing a mask or then does someone come back and I get sued because it didn't seal properly or enough or whatever reason.

This is why I avoid the whole interaction with people right now.  It's not for me, I don't care about getting infected. I don't want to be, but I accept that I will likely be exposed, just as I am every year to influenza, and the outcome will be what it is.  I'm living in fear of it and I don't have a reason to live in fear of it.  Again, that's me, that's not anyone else.

 

 

[Indabuff]

I have a pretty good seal for my issued N95 masks but it's kind of a pain donning/doffing.  I've got a supply of the over the ear surgical masks but I get a lot of fogging of the glasses even with the top pinched.  Anyone have a surefire way to stop this from happening other than not breathing?  

[Weave]

14 minutes ago, Indabuff said:

I have a pretty good seal for my issued N95 masks but it's kind of a pain donning/doffing.  I've got a supply of the over the ear surgical masks but I get a lot of fogging of the glasses even with the top pinched.  Anyone have a surefire way to stop this from happening other than not breathing?  

The only thing that works for me is wearing my glasses further down my nose.

[Indabuff]

51 minutes ago, Weave said:

The only thing that works for me is wearing my glasses further down my nose.

So I have to look snooty buying a 30 pack of Bud Light?!

[Weave]

6 minutes ago, Indabuff said:

So I have to look snooty buying a 30 pack of Bud Light?!

Is that even possible?

[Indabuff]

No, it's completely contradictory man!

[Ogre]

3 hours ago, LTS said:

Your last link is no longer valid so I can't review.

That’s a shame. I just got home from class so after I’ve, eaten, showered and had a beer I’ll try linking it from laptop. I’m not having trouble with it but I did link from my phone. It’s a draft of what a standard for Covid-19 would look like. The notable part is how the standard lays out how OSHA’s hierarchy of controls would be used in the workplace. 
 

Top of the ladder) Administrative controls; can we rotate workers, have them work from home, etc.

If not then) Engineering controls; barriers, distancing, etc.

If not then) Substitution; this doesn’t apply here. I wish there was a less dangerous virus to substitute with!

There is a lot more to all of this obviously but the same requirement for the employer to train employees and provide the PPE is there as it would be for any hazard. If anything needs an OSHA standard it’s Covid in my opinion. Our economy relies on workers and with them all sick or too scared to go to work we are up sh!t creek without a paddle. 

3 hours ago, LTS said:

a lot of people will be walking out into the world with a false sense of security

Another reason to read this standard. It clearly states that cloth face coverings are NOT PPE. If this standard were law then everyone going to work would be trained about what the masks are doing and we would be able to all be on one page about a course of action. Unfortunately there are a lot of senators that don’t want this to become a standard. For some reason.

 

3 hours ago, LTS said:

This is why I avoid the whole interaction with people right now.  It's not for me, I don't care about getting infected. I don't want to be, but I accept that I will likely be exposed, just as I am every year to influenza, and the outcome will be what it is.  I'm living in fear of it and I don't have a reason to live in fear of it.

I’m in a similar mind frame. I’ve seen too much “ugliness for no reason” in this world for me to get too riled up about dying. 
 

For me it’s the contagiousness of this thing. In my understanding Corona viruses are usually pretty nasty but not too contagious. If this were to go completely unchecked, what kind of outbreak would we have? I had a good friend my age that suffered a major heart attack a two weeks after being exposed to a bridge inspector that had the virus. Coincidence? Maybe. Who wants to be first in line to find out? He was never tested and now a lot of people that were in that crew are nervous they’ll be next. 
 

We are where we are. We need to figure out how to go forward from here. 

[Ogre]

I’m too tired and also accidentally fell into the hot tub so I’m not reposting that link from my laptop tonight. It still works fine for me. I will share this link though. All of OSHA‘s news releases since Covid became a pandemic. I pulled it a few clicks into the link to OSHA’s website that I shared. OSHA really is our friend. 

https://www.osha.gov/news/newsreleases/search?title_body=coronavirus&field_press_date_from_nrsearch=&field_press_date_to_nrsearch=

[North Buffalo]

On 5/27/2020 at 12:03 PM, PASabreFan said:

You look like Pope Francis!

Who me... not that pios