2020 Off-season gameplan

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Botterill has received some deserved criticism for his rebuild strategy of being too patient with his draft and develop approach. I'm sure I'm in the minority here but I believe it was to an extent working but the time required to take that route was a factor in his demise. He needed to be more bold and exhibit greater urgency to accelerate the rebuild process especially with Jack in his prime. There is not question that the ROR trade had lingering damaging consequences. But let's give credit where deserved. I thought the Jokiharju deal for Nylander was a terrific deal and the acquisition of Kahun for players who weren't going to be here the next year was also excellent deal.  

I thought Joki was our most consistent defenseman last year. I think he is going to be a gem.

Name 4 forwards in the system that this applies too. 

Cozens, looks good

Mitts, rushed and ***** up his development

Tage, gazelle that wasn't ready and should never have been the cornerstone to the ROR trade

Pekar? anyone else? I literally cannot name 4 forwards this franchise drafted to apply this criteria too that even have NHL shots. I suppose if I include Asplund but wasn't he a GMTM guy?

Edited June 30, 2020 by LGR4GM

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I think Kahun at 2rw could work. Kahun was producing both here and in Pitt. His advanced metrics are actually interesting. Let's just hope he is comfortable playing the right side. 

Skinner - Cozens? - Kahun

Olofsson - Eichel - Reinhart

I don’t think Kahun is a player you would slot into the top 6 in and of himself, but I think he has the type of game that allows him to play with top players. There is a universe where he could evolve the way, say, Riley Smith or Bryan Rust did.

[Gatorman0519]

The only thing Jbot did well was made sure St Louis won its first Cup.  

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Name 4 forwards in the system that this applies too. 

Cozens, looks good

Mitts, rushed and ***** up his development

Tage, gazelle that wasn't ready and should never have been the cornerstone to the ROR trade

Pekar? anyone else? I literally cannot name 4 forwards this franchise drafted to apply this criteria too that even have NHL shots. I suppose if I include Asplund but wasn't he a GMTM guy?

The Sabres drafted Eichel. Was that a mistake? The Sabres drafted Dahlin instead of a forward? Was that a mistake? Reinhart was the second pick in his draft. It was a reasonable pick. As you noted Cozens look good. And as you noted Mitts was rushed. However, that is not to say that he won't develop. Nylander, just like Mitts, was drafted in the vicinity of where he was ranked in his class. He ended up being dealt for Joki. So essentially his selection has turned out to be Joki who is capable of being a second-pairing caliber of player. Olofsson was developed in the system and has turned out better than one could reasonably expect.  This organization traded for ROR and they got one of the best two way centers in the game. And that is what he was and is. But for a number of reasons that have exhaustively been discussed here he was moved. There isn't anyone who will make the claim that we didn't get shortchanged. We are not the only team in hockey that has moved disgruntled players because it wanted to dispose of a problem. I would have waited for a better deal but the organization made the decision that it didn't want him in the locker room. Will Tage turn out to be a decent player? I don't know. Young tall and lanky players take time to physically mature. Chara's early years were not impressive. KI'm not suggesting he is the caliber of player that Chara is but from a physical profile these tall and thin players take time to physically mature and fill out.  

It's easy to be an oracle and say who should have been drafted 3 to 4 yrs after the fact. When you draft 17-18 yr olds you never really now how the player will turn out unless the player is one of the few who fall in the can't miss category. But if you go back and review the players who were drafted they all fell in the range where they were ranked. How else are you going to do it?

 

[SwampD]

Is Mitt's development really ***** up, or is his path to the NHL just kinda,... weird?

He's only 21.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

The Sabres drafted Eichel. Was that a mistake? The Sabres drafted Dahlin instead of a forward? Was that a mistake? Reinhart was the second pick in his draft. It was a reasonable pick. As you noted Cozens look good. And as you noted Mitts was rushed. However, that is not to say that he won't develop. Nylander, just like Mitts, was drafted in the vicinity of where he was ranked in his class. He ended up being dealt for Joki. So essentially his selection has turned out to be Joki who is capable of being a second-pairing caliber of player. Olofsson was developed in the system and has turned out better than one could reasonably expect.  This organization traded for ROR and they got one of the best two way centers in the game. And that is what he was and is. But for a number of reasons that have exhaustively been discussed here he was moved. There isn't anyone who will make the claim that we didn't get shortchanged. We are not the only team in hockey that has moved disgruntled players because it wanted to dispose of a problem. I would have waited for a better deal but the organization made the decision that it didn't want him in the locker room. Will Tage turn out to be a decent player? I don't know. Young tall and lanky players take time to physically mature. Chara's early years were not impressive. KI'm not suggesting he is the caliber of player that Chara is but from a physical profile these tall and thin players take time to physically mature and fill out.  

It's easy to be an oracle and say who should have been drafted 3 to 4 yrs after the fact. When you draft 17-18 yr olds you never really now how the player will turn out unless the player is one of the few who fall in the can't miss category. But if you go back and review the players who were drafted they all fell in the range where they were ranked. How else are you going to do it?

 

I know that he used the word "franchise" but, I think he was talking about the JBot "era".

Olofsson didn't really develop here, he spent about 4yrs in SHL and only needed to get used to the NHL rinks and style.

My take on both Mitts and Nylander is all about attitude. There's a word heard frequently as of late that comes to mind..."privileged".

[GASabresIUFAN]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Name 4 forwards in the system that this applies too. 

Cozens, looks good

Mitts, rushed and ***** up his development

Tage, gazelle that wasn't ready and should never have been the cornerstone to the ROR trade

Pekar? anyone else? I literally cannot name 4 forwards this franchise drafted to apply this criteria too that even have NHL shots. I suppose if I include Asplund but wasn't he a GMTM guy?

 

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

Is Mitt's development really ***** up, or is his path to the NHL just kinda,... weird?

He's only 21.

Jbot certainly took his time with both Asplund and VO even though they weren't his picks.  He also didn't try to force Routsalainen into the organization nor has been impatient with Weissbach and Davidson.  He also held onto Brett Murray who looks to be at worst a good AHLer and maybe more.

Weissbach looks to be developing into the playmaking version of VO and is progressing toward an NHL fuiture.  I don't think Davidson is a future NHLer, but we'll see when he comes to NA.

As to Mitts, honestly his placement in the NHL seems forced by his high draft status and ability to use his college eligibility to force the issue.  Jbot honestly hasn't taken that approach with any other draft picks.  Thompson and Jokiharju had half a season of NHL experience with their original clubs when acquired.  

Edited June 30, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

I know that he used the word "franchise" but, I think he was talking about the JBot "era".

Olofsson didn't really develop here, he spent about 4yrs in SHL and only needed to get used to the NHL rinks and style.

My take on both Mitts and Nylander is all about attitude. There's a word heard frequently as of late that comes to mind..."privileged".

When you draft 17-18 yrs old its not surprising that some kids are mature and others are not. Some quickly grow out of it while others have a slower progression. NHL hockey drafting is more unpredictable than NFL drafting because of the age differential when selecting. I'm not as critical as others on the selection of Mitts and Nylander because both players were drafted in the vicinity of where they ranked as prospects. And I still have some hope although not certain that Mitts could develop into a contributing player. As far as Nylander there should be no complaints about this traded player because he was flipped for Joki, who I believe is going to be a good player for us for a long time. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

When you draft 17-18 yrs old its not surprising that some kids are mature and others are not. Some quickly grow out of it while others have a slower progression. NHL hockey drafting is more unpredictable than NFL drafting because of the age differential when selecting. I'm not as critical as others on the selection of Mitts and Nylander because both players were drafted in the vicinity of where they ranked as prospects. And I still have some hope although not certain that Mitts could develop into a contributing player. As far as Nylander there should be no complaints about this traded player because he was flipped for Joki, who I believe is going to be a good player for us for a long time. 

My comment about attitude was more of a cockiness that may very well exceed their talent level (I hope not). 

Otherwise, I agree with you and am not opposed to raising the draft age if it would help with maturity level. 

[nfreeman]

20 minutes ago, JohnC said:

When you draft 17-18 yrs old its not surprising that some kids are mature and others are not. Some quickly grow out of it while others have a slower progression. NHL hockey drafting is more unpredictable than NFL drafting because of the age differential when selecting. I'm not as critical as others on the selection of Mitts and Nylander because both players were drafted in the vicinity of where they ranked as prospects. And I still have some hope although not certain that Mitts could develop into a contributing player. As far as Nylander there should be no complaints about this traded player because he was flipped for Joki, who I believe is going to be a good player for us for a long time. 

Now this is a perspective that I disagree with.  These GMs are paid millions of dollars to get these decisions right.  It's appropriate and fair to hold them to a higher standard than some yob who bought the Hockey News draft preview.

If Mitts washes out and a bunch of guys drafted after him turn into good players (which, it should be noted, hasn't happened yet), JB is accountable IMHO. 

[Andrew Amerk]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

Jbot certainly took his time with both Asplund and VO even though they weren't his picks.  He also didn't try to force Routsalainen into the organization nor has been impatient with Weissbach and Davidson.  He also held onto Brett Murray who looks to be at worst a good AHLer and maybe more.

Weissbach looks to be developing into the playmaking version of VO and is progressing toward an NHL fuiture.  I don't think Davidson is a future NHLer, but we'll see when he comes to NA.

As to Mitts, honestly his placement in the NHL seems forced by his high draft status and ability to use his college eligibility to force the issue.  Jbot honestly hasn't taken that approach with any other draft picks.  Thompson and Jokiharju had half a season of NHL experience with their original clubs when acquired.  

There’s also Borgen and Bryson who seem to be coming along decently, as well as 6K, and Portillo just won an award of some sort. 
 

Laaksonen is still cooking in the oven. 
 

He did draft Dahlin, which everyone views as a gimme, but I don’t think that’s always the case. Sometimes that player ends up a Daigle. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Andrew Amerk

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

Now this is a perspective that I disagree with.  These GMs are paid millions of dollars to get these decisions right.  It's appropriate and fair to hold them to a higher standard than some yob who bought the Hockey News draft preview.

If Mitts washes out and a bunch of guys drafted after him turn into good players (which, it should be noted, hasn't happened yet), JB is accountable IMHO. 

Nylander didn't work out for us. He was dealt for Joki who is a better player. So that is a plus replacement. Mitts being rushed was a mistake. Will he be a player worthy of his draft selection? I don't know. 

[nfreeman]

8 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Nylander didn't work out for us. He was dealt for Joki who is a better player. So that is a plus replacement. Mitts being rushed was a mistake. Will he be a player worthy of his draft selection? I don't know. 

I agree that getting Joker for Nylander was a good move.  That doesn't mean that GMTM wasn't accountable for missing on the Nylander selection.

[Thorner]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

I don’t think Kahun is a player you would slot into the top 6 in and of himself, but I think he has the type of game that allows him to play with top players. There is a universe where he could evolve the way, say, Riley Smith or Bryan Rust did.

How about rookies?

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

Jbot certainly took his time with both Asplund and VO even though they weren't his picks.  He also didn't try to force Routsalainen into the organization nor has been impatient with Weissbach and Davidson.  He also held onto Brett Murray who looks to be at worst a good AHLer and maybe more.

Weissbach looks to be developing into the playmaking version of VO and is progressing toward an NHL fuiture.  I don't think Davidson is a future NHLer, but we'll see when he comes to NA.

As to Mitts, honestly his placement in the NHL seems forced by his high draft status and ability to use his college eligibility to force the issue.  Jbot honestly hasn't taken that approach with any other draft picks.  Thompson and Jokiharju had half a season of NHL experience with their original clubs when acquired.  

Brett Murray's rights expired with the organization June 1, I believe. Agree on Davidson being a long shot, and Asplund hasn't seemed to take that next step yet. 

I have hope Ruotsolainen can become a bottom 6 depth player for this team, and I know nothing of Weissbach so I'll trust that's good news on him. 

28 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

There’s also Borgen and Bryson who seem to be coming along decently, as well as 6K, and Portillo just won an award of some sort. 
 

Laaksonen is still cooking in the oven. 
 

He did draft Dahlin, which everyone views as a gimme, but I don’t think that’s always the case. Sometimes that player ends up a Daigle. 

Have heard good things about Bryson. Laaksonen, people seem to be down on right now for whatever reason. I think he had a down year. 

@LGR4GM would probably know more

Edited June 30, 2020 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

17 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

 

I could live with Henrique but Stepan and either Strome are a no go for me. 

 

I'm a tad curious as to what players you classify in the electric 2Cs worth #8 and some other stuff?

I will include all possible centers that meet this criteria for me, no particular order:
Elias Pettersson, Brayden Point, Nathan MacKinnon, Auston Matthews, Connor McDavid, Patrice Bergeron, Leon Draisaitl, Anthony Cirelli, Ryan O'Reilly, Sean Couturier, Steven Stamkos, Mark Scheifele, Nazem Kadri (yes, he's good), Max Domi, Dylan Larkin, Anze Kopitar & Toews (though I wouldn't actually pursue them cuz contracts/age), Evgeni Malkin, Sidney Crosby, Bo Horvat, Tomas Hertl, maybe Couture (has he fallen off?), Tyler Seguin, John Tavares, Claude Giroux, Nick Backstrom, Evgeny Kuznetsov, Mika Zibanejad, William Karlsson, Mathew Barzal, Sebastian Aho, PL Dubois, Nico Hischier, Elias Lindholm, Sean Monahan, Brayden Schenn, Robert Thomas, Aleksander Barkov

RNH would be the threshold, anything above him really. Obviously 96% of those guys are untouchable, which is why this is a difficult thing to do. I'd say one, mayyyyyyyybe two of those skaters have greater than a 2% chance of moving this summer and if they do we need to be the ones to get them

It's also possible that the braintrust uncovers a young player that flourishes in a new role, and avoids having to give up the eighth pick. Maybe Adam Gaudette or someone like that. That type of move would go into the other category for now though. 
 

[Thorner]

Hot take: the reason Pittsburgh only managed to win 3 cups is they only ever had 2 electric 2Cs instead of a true 1C. 

[Randall Flagg]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Hot take: the reason Pittsburgh only managed to win 3 cups is they only ever had 2 electric 2Cs instead of a true 1C. 

"all possible centers that meet the criteria" means I'm describing the floor and everything above the floor 

[Weave]

Don't know where this should go so I am putting it here.

 

Sabrespace whipping boy with an interesting tweet this evening.
 

Quote

 

John Wawrow

@john_wawrow

7m

More mixed messaging from PSE? Understand there’s now some unhappiness over all the dead money contracts suddenly on the #Sabres books.

 

 

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

"all possible centers that meet the criteria" means I'm describing the floor and everything above the floor 

excuse me my little joke

2 minutes ago, Weave said:

Don't know where this should go so I am putting it here.

 

Sabrespace whipping boy with an interesting tweet this evening.
 

 

Unhappiness because they are grumbling about those contract while freeing $ up for Dudley. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Thorny

[Andrew Amerk]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

Don't know where this should go so I am putting it here.

 

Sabrespace whipping boy with an interesting tweet this evening.
 

 

Maybe it’s referring to paying 3 GMs all at the same time, which is quite an incredible feat. 

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Brett Murray's rights expired with the organization June 1, I believe. Agree on Davidson being a long shot, and Asplund hasn't seemed to take that next step yet. 

I have hope Ruotsolainen can become a bottom 6 depth player for this team, and I know nothing of Weissbach so I'll trust that's good news on him. 

Have heard good things about Bryson. Laaksonen, people seem to be down on right now for whatever reason. I think he had a down year. 

@LGR4GM would probably know more

If I understand correctly, Laaks is an offensive D that was asked to focus more on doing D this season. Maybe his numbers dipped because of it? 

[darksabre]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

Don't know where this should go so I am putting it here.

 

Sabrespace whipping boy with an interesting tweet this evening.
 

 

I'm sure another reporter on Twitter will be along shortly to say the exact opposite of whatever it is Wawrow is trying to say. 

[nfreeman]

I wonder whether @john wawrow was referring to player contracts or management/scouting/other employees?

[LGR4GM]

15 hours ago, Thorny said:

Brett Murray's rights expired with the organization June 1, I believe. Agree on Davidson being a long shot, and Asplund hasn't seemed to take that next step yet. 

I have hope Ruotsolainen can become a bottom 6 depth player for this team, and I know nothing of Weissbach so I'll trust that's good news on him. 

Have heard good things about Bryson. Laaksonen, people seem to be down on right now for whatever reason. I think he had a down year. 

@LGR4GM would probably know more

I believe Laaksonen was injured at some point and that impacted him. Also Laaksonen went from 5'9" to 6'2" or something in a year so he has some major filling out to do. 

15 hours ago, Weave said:

Don't know where this should go so I am putting it here.

 

Sabrespace whipping boy with an interesting tweet this evening.
 

 

Wouldn't some of that dead money disappear as of today? Leino for example is no longer on the books. I would assume some of the fired ppl had contracts expiring? 

[Thorner]

A nice, detailed roster breakdown/construction from Chad:

https://www.diebytheblade.com/2020/7/1/21309489/building-the-buffalo-sabres-2020-offseason-projection-2-0-adams-lindholm-fast-kerfoot-lundell

Pretty good read.