Rumor: About Botterill’s Future Being in Doubt

[WildCard]

2 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Botterill is building this team the right way, the reason none of us has the patience left is because murray wanted to speed up the rebuild and basically traded away the middle six we should be having by now.

It doesn't take 4 years to build a playoff team. Especially when you have a star #1 already here before you arrive

[apuszczalowski]

Just now, WildCard said:

It doesn't take 4 years to build a playoff team. Especially when you have a star #1 already here before you arrive

It's funny how other teams can rebuild on the fly and turn their teams around in less then half the time it takes for Botterill to evaluate the roster. Those that think this is the right way justify it by thinking that if you take all this time to do it, your going to end up with some dynasty franchise that's going to dominate for decades and win multiple cups year after year. But with the Salary cap, it's just not possible anymore.

[bunomatic]

The Canucks are doing a pretty decent job of collecting talent without having to tear it down to the ground. One of many teams to do so.

[triumph_communes]

19 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

It's funny how other teams can rebuild on the fly and turn their teams around in less then half the time it takes for Botterill to evaluate the roster. Those that think this is the right way justify it by thinking that if you take all this time to do it, your going to end up with some dynasty franchise that's going to dominate for decades and win multiple cups year after year. But with the Salary cap, it's just not possible anymore.

Because their depth wasn’t gutted like Murray did.  Everyone knew it at the time. Go back and look at eve trade thread. “We overpaid, but if the player pans out it’s ok”. Well guess what? Kane, Bogosian, Lehner, Fasching, all the draft picks beyond 2OA and a 7th...  Nothing panned out. 

[LGR4GM]

14 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

The Canucks are doing a pretty decent job of collecting talent without having to tear it down to the ground. One of many teams to do so.

? They drafted 6th, 5th, 5th, and 7th overall. The only outlier in that span is Boeser at 23rd overall. They most certainly did tear it down but they rebuilt properly.

I would also argue they have been drafting better than us since 2017. At least when it comes to forwards. Again, Buffalo has not drafted impactful forwards outside of the 1st round in any Botterill draft. It is a major concern going into this draft considering what this draft looks like in the top 50. 

Edited March 3, 2020 by LGR4GM

[bunomatic]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

? They drafted 6th, 5th, 5th, and 7th overall. The only outlier in that span is Boeser at 23rd overall. They most certainly did tear it down but they rebuilt properly.

I would also argue they have been drafting better than us since 2017. At least when it comes to forwards. Again, Buffalo has not drafted impactful forwards outside of the 1st round in any Botterill draft. It is a major concern going into this draft considering what this draft looks like in the top 50. 

So you’re saying they tanked ? They never tanked. They were bad sure. But they never tore it down in the fashion Buffalo did. They continued to at least try and win. BIG difference.

[MattPie]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

? They drafted 6th, 5th, 5th, and 7th overall. The only outlier in that span is Boeser at 23rd overall. They most certainly did tear it down but they rebuilt properly.

I would also argue they have been drafting better than us since 2017. At least when it comes to forwards. Again, Buffalo has not drafted impactful forwards outside of the 1st round in any Botterill draft. It is a major concern going into this draft considering what this draft looks like in the top 50. 

To be fair, it's unlikely there are many 19-22 year old impact players coming from the later rounds of the draft on any team.

Also, love this rumor: "GM who in three years has had mediocre results may get fired". Couldn't have figured that one out myself.

[triumph_communes]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

? They drafted 6th, 5th, 5th, and 7th overall. The only outlier in that span is Boeser at 23rd overall. They most certainly did tear it down but they rebuilt properly.

I would also argue they have been drafting better than us since 2017. At least when it comes to forwards. Again, Buffalo has not drafted impactful forwards outside of the 1st round in any Botterill draft. It is a major concern going into this draft considering what this draft looks like in the top 50. 

Oh, you’re already claiming Pekar and  Davidsson as busts?  Guess Thompson was a first rounder so we can ignore him too

 

Such a shame spending 2nd and 3rd round picks on defenseman and a goalie. Botterill building from the back end forward first, with the types of prospects who take longer to develop, before picking all the forwards. Such awful GMing

Edited March 3, 2020 by triumph_communes

[dudacek]

5 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Botterill is building this team the right way, the reason none of us has the patience left is because murray wanted to speed up the rebuild and basically traded away the middle six we should be having by now.

Botterill’s plan is fine. 
It’s his player evaluation and acquisition skills that have not measured up.

 

[Scottysabres]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Botterill’s plan is fine. 
It’s his player evaluation and acquisition skills that have not measured up.

 

I would consider those skills as part of the plan.

?

[Cityo'Rasmii]

 

[TrueBlueGED]

20 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Botterill’s plan is fine. 
It’s his player evaluation and acquisition skills that have not measured up.

 

The thing that's killing me about these defenses of Botterill is he has failed by his own metric for success. He said the goal was to be playing meaningful games in March. The team isn't. He has a plan and he failed. That tends to be when executives lose jobs. 

[3putt]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Botterill’s plan is fine. 
It’s his player evaluation and acquisition skills that have not measured up.

 

To paraphrase Mike Tyson, Everyone has a plan until they cut their own leg off with a chainsaw and then like a rat, they stop in fear and freeze.

[...]

19 minutes ago, 3putt said:

To paraphrase Mike Tyson, Everyone has a plan until they cut their own leg off with a chainsaw and then like a rat, they stop in fear and freeze.

I think it's more like:

Everyone hath a plan until they cut their own leg off with a chainthaw and then like a rat, they thop in fear and freethe.

[woods-racer]

Another thing to remember as we compare re-builds...

 

Other teams have had a good minor league system to bring players up in.

The Sabres haven't had that in over a decade. Darcy didn't have that in his final (3-5?) years . Pegula had to buy the team to keep from having to shop teams to be our farm team on a regular basis.

 

GMTM left the cupboards as bare as he found them when he got fired.

It took Boterill to come in and get a respectable farm team up and running.

We've only had a decent farm system for the last three years in the last 10 to 15 years.

[tom webster]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

? They drafted 6th, 5th, 5th, and 7th overall. The only outlier in that span is Boeser at 23rd overall. They most certainly did tear it down but they rebuilt properly.

I would also argue they have been drafting better than us since 2017. At least when it comes to forwards. Again, Buffalo has not drafted impactful forwards outside of the 1st round in any Botterill draft. It is a major concern going into this draft considering what this draft looks like in the top 50. 

So, out of their nine top scoring forwards, six are first round picks, one(Toffoli) is a second round pick acquired in a trade and one is a fifth round “diamond in the rough.” I would argue that the only difference is that they traded for JT Miller and Buffalo didn’t.

[shrader]

I'm late to this party and all I've actually read is the last post and quote.  So this team hasn't drafted any impactful forwards outside of the first round during the Boterill regime?  What exactly is the definition of "impactful" in that description.  To date, not a single player drafted after the first round over those three years has a full season under his belt.  53 is the max career games played for any single player.  So you've got, what, maybe 1 or 2 GMs who currently have an impactful player from that time span?

[Thorner]

On 3/1/2020 at 7:35 PM, pi2000 said:

Probably couldn't get enough in return for the UFAs to make it worthwhile.

He has over $30mil in cap space this summer, I'm convinced he has a spending plan and TP is on board.    Next year is the year that real progress has to be made or it's curtains for JBOT.

No, a GM doesn't get FOUR. SEASONS. just to make "real progress". Unless you mean playoffs. Because playoffs are a hard-line goal next season. There is no reason on god's green earth a GM should still have a job going 0-4 in the playoff chase. 

If Botterill is retained and we miss the playoffs by a single point, he should be fired.

On 3/1/2020 at 11:20 PM, Brawndo said:

There were three long term contracts on the books when Botterill got here, Bogosian, Risto and Okposo. The rest of the salary cap is on him. 

The team he has assembled each of the past three seasons has had the lowest expected goals stats in the NHL. They have 4 players who are capable of scoring goals on a consistent basis on the team, of which Skinner is the only one he acquired. 

Keeping any of the UFAs outside of Larsson isn’t a good idea in my opinion. 

Outside of Cozens, the prospect pool which he has built is average at best, not a great track record figuring how high they have drafted. 

This organization is at a crossroads this summer and the consequences of messing it up, could and will be disastrous.

If there is any doubt in the Pegulas Minds about Botterill’s Abilities, he needs to be fired at the end of the year. 

The cap space, the lack of a signed roster and the building blocks in place with Eichel and Dahlin should make this an  attractive job.

In terms of the Pagnotta Report, it’s entirely possible that the team has put up feelers through agents/other team representatives that the Buffalo GM Position may be open to gauge interest. It’s possible the word got out this way. 

It definitely feels like if we keep JB, we'd be keeping the GM based on fear of what the replacement would be rather than because of actual merit attributed to the job he's done. That's not a situation I like. 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorner]

On 3/2/2020 at 2:20 PM, Brawndo said:

Well since I cannot use Donskoi, John Tavares and Artemi Panarin say hello (Yes neither was coming here, but that's not what you asked)

I'm not talking about UFAs strictly.

Botterill traded a 3rd for Vesey and a 2nd and a 5th for Miller this Summer.

Vesey has not added the scoring that the Sabres need and Miller was scratched more often than not until Scandella was traded.

No other defenseman has been traded to upgrade the forwards, which was the belief why Miller and Jokiharju were brought in.

Now look around the league who was moved this past summer in terms of forwards.

Andre Burakovsky was moved for a 2nd and 3rd

Erik Haula, who could have filled the 2C or 3C Role, was moved for Nicolas Roy and a conditional fifth.

A combination of those 3 picks could have gotten at least one of those deals done?

 

I was one of the last three Botterill hold outs, check out My Avatar, but his poor evaluation of forwards precludes him from being the right person for the GM Position going forward.

If he were to stay, he would have a playoff or bust ultimatum, GMs who are lacking in their jobs have a tendency to make bad decisions as they will not be employed long enough to deal with the repercussions. This would further paralyze the team for the next 3-5 years. AKA Eichel's remaining time here as a Sabre.

 

 

 

This. All of this. Especially the bolded. 

[shrader]

I'll just say that I expect him to be here next year, but I can't help but be intrigued by the thought of what an experienced GM would do with the cap space and the upcoming overhaul.  It's a near ideal situation for that kind of guy to step into.

[Thorner]

Pegula needs to make a choice between what's right, and what's easy. 

[WildCard]

Just now, shrader said:

I'll just say that I expect him to be here next year, but I can't help but be intrigued by the thought of what an experienced GM would do with the cap space and the upcoming overhaul.  It's a near ideal situation for that kind of guy to step into.

Botterill may very well make the playoffs next year, but is that actual vindication? If he does it on the skin of his teeth, and more through luck than actual skill using all of that cap space, or puts us in a bad position going forward, is it worth it? If we're going to make a change, now is the time.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, woods-racer said:

Another thing to remember as we compare re-builds...

 

Other teams have had a good minor league system to bring players up in.

The Sabres haven't had that in over a decade. Darcy didn't have that in his final (3-5?) years . Pegula had to buy the team to keep from having to shop teams to be our farm team on a regular basis.

This seems like a fair point to me. Not sure how relevant it is, but it definitely seems fair. 

[Thorner]

9 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Botterill is building this team the right way, the reason none of us has the patience left is because murray wanted to speed up the rebuild and basically traded away the middle six we should be having by now.

I love when people are like damn, we could have had JT Compher right now! Like Murray didn't aquire a *better* centre in that trade. We'd have a much better team right now if Murray was still the GM. 

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

Botterill’s plan is fine. 
It’s his player evaluation and acquisition skills that have not measured up.

 

I don't even know if the plan can be construed as fine when it has lead to so many disastrous results. I don't think his timeline for success was a good one, and that's a big part of any plan. 

He's too frivolous with Jack's prime years. 

[Hank]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Pegula needs to make a choice between what's right, and what's easy. 

I think he has made a choice. I think he's embraced JKru's plan of a slow build from the bottom up, and I don't think it was an easy choice at all.