Rumor: About Botterill’s Future Being in Doubt

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, sabremike said:

When you get the chance to draft a defenseman with no offensive ability whatsoever whose a non entity on a mediocre college team over one of the best goal scorers in all of junior hockey who is carrying a team that should've finished dead last into the playoffs YOU DO IT.

Best part is this could apply to either Kaliyev or Robertson. 

[Brawndo]

50 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

I think it’s a great example of what cap hell is and why you can’t just instantly fix your team in the next draft and UFA like you can in football. Go back the last three years and find me one UFA signing that makes a big difference in the results the last two years. And don’t say Donskoi he was offered more money and turned it down 

Well since I cannot use Donskoi, John Tavares and Artemi Panarin say hello (Yes neither was coming here, but that's not what you asked)

I'm not talking about UFAs strictly.

Botterill traded a 3rd for Vesey and a 2nd and a 5th for Miller this Summer.

Vesey has not added the scoring that the Sabres need and Miller was scratched more often than not until Scandella was traded.

No other defenseman has been traded to upgrade the forwards, which was the belief why Miller and Jokiharju were brought in.

Now look around the league who was moved this past summer in terms of forwards.

Andre Burakovsky was moved for a 2nd and 3rd

Erik Haula, who could have filled the 2C or 3C Role, was moved for Nicolas Roy and a conditional fifth.

A combination of those 3 picks could have gotten at least one of those deals done?

 

I was one of the last three Botterill hold outs, check out My Avatar, but his poor evaluation of forwards precludes him from being the right person for the GM Position going forward.

If he were to stay, he would have a playoff or bust ultimatum, GMs who are lacking in their jobs have a tendency to make bad decisions as they will not be employed long enough to deal with the repercussions. This would further paralyze the team for the next 3-5 years. AKA Eichel's remaining time here as a Sabre.

 

 

 

[LGR4GM]

^this

[jad1]

2 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Rofl, ask this board five years ago what’s important and top pairing defenseman were the answer. You’re grasping at straws. Ullmark is fine, he literally got injured. Not many teams survive losing starting goaltenders. Hutton stole us games last year, hindsight is pretty hilarious when used like in the quote. His collapse has been epic, but it’s not like we don’t have 6K in the ranks. We have the elusive franchise 1C. Blame Murray for missing on Reinhart being number two. We have no problem with bottom six centers. Again, blowing the situation out of proportion. Mittelstadt and Cozens are in the ranks for center and just like 99% of NHL prospects, need a few years before you can even expect them to contribute. 

Blame Murray for missing out on Reinhart for the #2 center? Really? Murray traded for O'Reilly minutes before drafting Eichel.  Eichel and O'Reilly were Murray's top two centers from that point on.

In a 10 minute span, Murray brought in more and better centers than Botterill has done in 3 years.  And Murray also had two 50+ point wingers in Reinhart and Kane to join with his top two centers.

Murray's not even a good GM, but he addressed the foward position waaay better than Botterill has.  10 minutes two legit centers vs 3 years of watching Botterill shore up the 8th and 9th defensemen before fixing the top two foward lines.

Botterill isn't in hot water because of what he inherited, he's in hot water because over the last three years he's badly managed the team's priorities.

 

[Cascade Youth]

46 minutes ago, jad1 said:

Blame Murray for missing out on Reinhart for the #2 center? Really? Murray traded for O'Reilly minutes before drafting Eichel.  Eichel and O'Reilly were Murray's top two centers from that point on.

In a 10 minute span, Murray brought in more and better centers than Botterill has done in 3 years.  And Murray also had two 50+ point wingers in Reinhart and Kane to join with his top two centers.

Murray's not even a good GM, but he addressed the foward position waaay better than Botterill has.  10 minutes two legit centers vs 3 years of watching Botterill shore up the 8th and 9th defensemen before fixing the top two foward lines.

Botterill isn't in hot water because of what he inherited, he's in hot water because over the last three years he's badly managed the team's priorities.

 

Honestly that ends the discussion.  Well said.

[Marvin]

Bias alert: I was on the Boot Botterill Bandwagon last season.

I will concede that triumph_communes has a point in that we underestimate the effect of not having Reinhart transition to centre.  However, at the very least, Botterill has been manifestly unable to fill in the roster with NHL players:

2017-8: Jordan Nolan, Seth Griffith, Jacob Josefson, Benoit Pouliot, Justin Falk, Nathan Beaulieu (not to mention Moulson, Bogosian, Ristolainen, and the goaltending)

2018-9: Remi Elie, Vladimir Sobotka, Tage Thompson, Casey Mittlestadt, Conor Sheary, Evan Rodrigues (and add Bogosian, Beaulieu, the Scandella-Ristolainen pairing, the holes at centre, and goaltending problems)

2019-20: Michael Frolik, Mittlestadt, Sobotka, Sheary, Rodrigues (plus the mis-constructed line-up overall with even more holes at centre and goaltending issues)

Each season, even when fully healthy, the team iced at least one line of sub-NHL players that Botterill specifically brought in.  (Note that Housley was dealt two particularly bad hands and that Kreuger was not done any favours.)  Moreover, the Sabres haven't even had 4 experienced, NHL-quality, natural centres on a roster yet in his tenure.

He also has failed to enhance the line-up when warranted.  IMHO, you don't win 10 games in a row by accident.  (Last season, I would have moved both extra firsts if need be for a 2C with term.)  There were competent, inexpensive 2-3C's available in this past offseason which could have tided them over until Mittelstadt and/or Cozens is ready.  3C's are still being traded.

Imagine all 12 forwards on the ice being NHL quality where Skinner has a real centre.  Imagine a goaltender who does not remind you of the Gerry Desjardins in the 1975 Stanley Cup Finals.

[freester]

There are so many reasons why Botteril is utterly incompetent at his job and should be fired immediately. People who try to justify and rationalize his actions must be either family members or lovers. I’m not sure he’ll be hired by any NHL team next year if he’s fired, sort of like Doug Whaley. 

[triumph_communes]

1 hour ago, jad1 said:

Blame Murray for missing out on Reinhart for the #2 center? Really? Murray traded for O'Reilly minutes before drafting Eichel.  Eichel and O'Reilly were Murray's top two centers from that point on.

In a 10 minute span, Murray brought in more and better centers than Botterill has done in 3 years.  And Murray also had two 50+ point wingers in Reinhart and Kane to join with his top two centers.

Murray's not even a good GM, but he addressed the foward position waaay better than Botterill has.  10 minutes two legit centers vs 3 years of watching Botterill shore up the 8th and 9th defensemen before fixing the top two foward lines.

Botterill isn't in hot water because of what he inherited, he's in hot water because over the last three years he's badly managed the team's priorities.

 

Murray’s goalies, defense, and minor league tho 

 

Botterill has gotten more with less. Paying a fortune to get a UFA to be early and signing him to a contract you could have just gotten a month later without spending assets was his peak... 

Edited March 2, 2020 by triumph_communes

[Weave]

11 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Botterill has gotten more with less.

How is this even possible when Botterill's teams have yet to equal the point totals of Murray's team?

[PerreaultForever]

13 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Remember when we spent years crying: we need a too4 defenseman but nobody ever trades one!  Risto is playing too many minutes he needs to be a second pairing guy!

 

Now we have arguably 4-5 top 4 guys. McCabe is a solid third pairing now. Montour is forced playing offhand because of the depth. And we have Pilut, Borgen, two first rounders and some other wild cards like Laaksonen in the system. When we lose a defenseman in the expansion draft (and we will), we already have a replacement in order.  I believe Ristolainen is gone before next season, and we won’t miss a beat paying that UFA contract he will want. 
 

It’s very true. And Joki and Dahlin are still kids and the sky is the limit for both of them still. 
 

Have tour gripes and pretend Rome can be built in 2 years all you want, but our defensive depth is now SOLID. Great way to build from the back out, the way it always should have been. 

This is a biased fan based overvaluation of our D. Your use of the word "solid" makes me think you don't know what that word means :)

We are better than when JBot arrived for sure, but at that point we had arguably the worst D in the league. So better, but far from good or solid. We have constant problems in our own end and are abysmal in defending the front of our own net. Risto should be a second pairing guy at best for sure, but the fact he isn't here tells you something right off. I suspect on Boston (a top D team) he wouldn't even crack the top 4, he might take Lauzon's spot if he was parachuted onto that team but honestly I'm not sure he'd even be on their top 6. Too undisciplined.

Dahlin and Jokiharju, the projected top D men on the roster. Absolutely, in time, but not there yet.

Montour? Totally over rated. A disaster in his own end at times. Ducks ditched him with good reason. Can't stand his D game.

Risto. Physical but undisciplined as I said. Chases the puck way too much still and gets caught out of position all too often. Better under Kreuger than he was under Housley, but not reliable, so a second pairing guy at best agreed.

McCabe? B/C grade mediocre D man. Depth player. A 3rd pairing guy but far from"solid."

Miller? JBot overpaid for him. Moves the puck well at times but also a 3rd pairing guy.

Haven't seen enough of Borgen to know but I have hope. Pilut? From what I've seen not impressed. A younger Miller at best, a Montour type more likely. Neither can be assumed to be really ready.

So what I see is a very average and flawed D filled with mid and low level D men and no top notch ones until Dahlin is fully developed. That's a year or two, maybe even three away. 

not my definition of solid at all. 

[triumph_communes]

12 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

This is a biased fan based overvaluation of our D. Your use of the word "solid" makes me think you don't know what that word means ?

We are better than when JBot arrived for sure, but at that point we had arguably the worst D in the league. So better, but far from good or solid. We have constant problems in our own end and are abysmal in defending the front of our own net. Risto should be a second pairing guy at best for sure, but the fact he isn't here tells you something right off. I suspect on Boston (a top D team) he wouldn't even crack the top 4, he might take Lauzon's spot if he was parachuted onto that team but honestly I'm not sure he'd even be on their top 6. Too undisciplined.

Dahlin and Jokiharju, the projected top D men on the roster. Absolutely, in time, but not there yet.

Montour? Totally over rated. A disaster in his own end at times. Ducks ditched him with good reason. Can't stand his D game.

Risto. Physical but undisciplined as I said. Chases the puck way too much still and gets caught out of position all too often. Better under Kreuger than he was under Housley, but not reliable, so a second pairing guy at best agreed.

McCabe? B/C grade mediocre D man. Depth player. A 3rd pairing guy but far from"solid."

Miller? JBot overpaid for him. Moves the puck well at times but also a 3rd pairing guy.

Haven't seen enough of Borgen to know but I have hope. Pilut? From what I've seen not impressed. A younger Miller at best, a Montour type more likely. Neither can be assumed to be really ready.

So what I see is a very average and flawed D filled with mid and low level D men and no top notch ones until Dahlin is fully developed. That's a year or two, maybe even three away. 

not my definition of solid at all. 

Two youths in a second pairing being sheltered from top minutes but both projecting to top pairing or generational. Two good third pairing guys. Montour and Risto at the top in the mean time. Plus tons of top talent depth. Yes that’s solid. Meaning, it doesn’t need work and it’s problems are set to resolve themselves. 
 

Risto has transformed under Krueger. Gone are his lazy days. Miller has been the dunce lately if anyone. 
 

Did you even watch the tank years?  I can understand them being blocked from memory 

[sabresparaavida]

6 hours ago, Curt said:

I was being completely sarcastic.  I know Pegula has money, but I doubt he is willing to blindly dump his own money into the Sabres to the point that he isn’t making a profit.  I haven’t seen a lot of examples of him doing so in the areas he is allowed to.

I wouldn't expect him to blindly dump money into the organization either. I think he would probably spend more than the average owner though.

[PerreaultForever]

53 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Did you even watch the tank years?  I can understand them being blocked from memory 

Sure, and this is why I think your view is way off the mark. It's relative to that mess and so it looks a lot better in that comparison , but if you measure it relative to top defensive teams, it's very very mediocre. 

Edited March 3, 2020 by PerreaultForever

[LGR4GM]

57 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Two youths in a second pairing being sheltered from top minutes but both projecting to top pairing or generational. Two good third pairing guys. Montour and Risto at the top in the mean time. Plus tons of top talent depth. Yes that’s solid. Meaning, it doesn’t need work and it’s problems are set to resolve themselves. 
 

Risto has transformed under Krueger. Gone are his lazy days. Miller has been the dunce lately if anyone. 
 

Did you even watch the tank years?  I can understand them being blocked from memory 

Montour and Risto are a trainwreck together. 

[Kruppstahl]

1 hour ago, freester said:

There are so many reasons why Botteril is utterly incompetent at his job and should be fired immediately. People who try to justify and rationalize his actions must be either family members or lovers. I’m not sure he’ll be hired by any NHL team next year if he’s fired, sort of like Doug Whaley. 

Certainly not at the GM level, no.  He may roll  back into a position similar to what he was doing in Pittsburgh.

Hey, Whaley had tons of supporters too!  I kept pointing out how bad he was and noting that he would not be working in the league again once he was eventually fired...and of course people attacked me like crazy (at TBD).  It's pretty much how these forums tend to roll.  

 

 

[Kruppstahl]

1 hour ago, triumph_communes said:

Two youths in a second pairing being sheltered from top minutes but both projecting to top pairing or generational. Two good third pairing guys. Montour and Risto at the top in the mean time. Plus tons of top talent depth. Yes that’s solid. Meaning, it doesn’t need work and it’s problems are set to resolve themselves. 
 

Risto has transformed under Krueger. Gone are his lazy days. Miller has been the dunce lately if anyone. 
 

Did you even watch the tank years?  I can understand them being blocked from memory 

Risto has "transformed" under Krueger?!  What does that even mean?  He's the same player he always was, with slightly improved stats in some areas b/c he has gotten some reduced minutes and has been sheltered a bit more than he used to be.  

He remains horrific as a defenseman. 

 

 

[triumph_communes]

32 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Sure, and this is why I think your view is way off the mark. It's relative to that mess and so it looks a lot better in that comparison , but if you measure it relative to top defensive teams, it's very very mediocre. 

It doesn’t have to be a current top-5 in the entire league to be ‘solid’. Though without currently being there, it needs the potential to grow into that and our players are absolutely trending that way. Dahlin is special. Jokiharju is going to be a treat for years to come too. 

[Curt]

1 hour ago, sabresparaavida said:

I wouldn't expect him to blindly dump money into the organization either. I think he would probably spend more than the average owner though.

I don’t think he would.  Not because he doesn’t have money, but because the Sabres probably take in less money than the average NHL team.  I doubt Pegula would operate the team at a loss.  He may be a sports fan, but I doubt he would lose millions on the team per year.  That would be a rather expensive hobby.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Murray’s goalies, defense, and minor league tho 

 

Botterill has gotten more with less. Paying a fortune to get a UFA to be early and signing him to a contract you could have just gotten a month later without spending assets was his peak... 

Ok Mrs Botterill please read that no one agrees with you.  

Yes, Murray was not a good GM, he made mistakes.  That does not excuse  Botterill’s performance.  Being “better than Murray” is not a reason to defend the terrible job that Botterill has done.  
 

 

[Weave]

33 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Ok Mrs Botterill please read that no one agrees with you.  

Yes, Murray was not a good GM, he made mistakes.  That does not excuse  Botterill’s performance.  Being “better than Murray” is not a reason to defend the terrible job that Botterill has done.  
 

 

Especially when the record does not show that he has done a better job.

[triumph_communes]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Ok Mrs Botterill please read that no one agrees with you.  

Yes, Murray was not a good GM, he made mistakes.  That does not excuse  Botterill’s performance.  Being “better than Murray” is not a reason to defend the terrible job that Botterill has done.  
 

 

The polls are clear that half the readers understand the path and are patient. Just because the Botteril whiners are the loudest doesn’t mean they’re aligned with reality.

[PerreaultForever]

42 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

The polls are clear that half the readers understand the path and are patient. Just because the Botteril whiners are the loudest doesn’t mean they’re aligned with reality.

What poll?

patience has run out. 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, triumph_communes said:

The polls are clear that half the readers understand the path and are patient. Just because the Botteril whiners are the loudest doesn’t mean they’re aligned with reality.

Well I sure hope you are correct.   I would like nothing more than to see Botterill fix the roster and get this team back into the playoffs NEXT YEAR.   I would like to see him fulfill Pegula’s promise of Stanley Cups and hockey heaven.  I want to be wrong rather than push restart once again.  
 

Time will tell.  So far his moves leave me skeptical.  

[Huckleberry]

Botterill is building this team the right way, the reason none of us has the patience left is because murray wanted to speed up the rebuild and basically traded away the middle six we should be having by now.

[Radar]

7 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Well I sure hope you are correct.   I would like nothing more than to see Botterill fix the roster and get this team back into the playoffs NEXT YEAR.   I would like to see him fulfill Pegula’s promise of Stanley Cups and hockey heaven.  I want to be wrong rather than push restart once again.  
 

Time will tell.  So far his moves leave me skeptical.  

That one trade fueled my skepticism but I'm in the camp of seeing what he can do between now and July. Playoffs or bust for next season. Having said that if this team is well under .500 in it's remaining games I wouldn't be surprised if there's changes.