Rumor: About Botterill’s Future Being in Doubt

[Stoner]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

Do you not think this season's final point total will factor into TP's decision?

Jeez, I hope not. Terry could make the decision right now. Should make it now? The final games don't matter. That homestand was all you really need to know.

[dudacek]

10 hours ago, Thorny said:

Can't absolve him of it. I know, we've done this.

He didn’t set the deadline, and he may not have made the decision O’Reilly should be traded.

The O’Reilly deal carries a huge smell of “Murray was a drunken lout who embarrassed the franchise, and brought in players just like him. I want you to purge them from the team.”

You can’t absolve him from the fact that none of the players he acquired in that trade have helped the Sabres at all, or that he has done nothing in two years to fill the hole he created.

10 hours ago, Thorny said:

He's made SO many mistakes. I still see it as a tough call in some ways. That's probably a lot rooted in fear of what would come next. 

I believe the primary reasons Pegula will have for keeping Botterill are:

1) guilt for forcing the O’Reilly trade on him, and for “letting a good man go” if he pulls the trigger.

2) embarrassment for taking full responsibility for this hire and having to admit it was a failure

3) shame for being perceived as running an unstable organization.

The fact that none of these reasons have anything to do with Jason’s ability to acquire hockey talent is telling.

Edited March 1, 2020 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

I read that we are down 3 draft picks over the next 2 years too, with this product. I wonder if the"Murray traded all of our picks" crowd will notice that not only has Jason made fewer picks and fewer high picks in his 3 drafts than Murray in his 3, but has also put us in a pick deficit the next two years 

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I read that we are down 3 draft picks over the next 2 years too, with this product. I wonder if the"Murray traded all of our picks" crowd will notice that not only has Jason made fewer picks and fewer high picks in his 3 drafts than Murray in his 3, but has also put us in a pick deficit the next two years 

When I was looking at this in the fall, I really thought he was going to make up for it this trade deadline with all his pending UFAs.

Not sure if I was wrong, or circumstances made him change his plan.

Edited March 1, 2020 by dudacek

[Huckleberry]

People forget one thing.

You build a team with the draft and it takes 3 years for young players to develop.    The players that got drafted before Botterill got here where are they now ?

We all keep complaining about our middle six but Compher / Armia would look nice there now wouldn't they ?   

I like Zemgus but his puck control is sheary level bad sometimes and probably is KHL bound like Grigorenko.

Ristolainen is the only one since 2010 still on this team that is worth something and Zadarov we traded away. 

The only bad move he made was the return on O'reilly but that has rumours of the owners forcing him to do it.

[dudacek]

8 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

 

The only bad move he made was the return on O'reilly but that has rumours of the owners forcing him to do it.

Dammit, this just isn’t true: Beaulieu, Pouliot, Hutton, Vesey, Sheary, Johansson, the Skinner contract, playing Mittelstadt right away, Frolik.. he has made a lot of bad player evaluations and added very little to our core to make up for it.

I hope to god Cozens, Mitts, Thompson, Dahlin (a lottery ball acquisition) Jokiharju and Lukkonnen become core players and change the narrative, but his NHL player acquisition record stinks.

Edited March 1, 2020 by dudacek

[3putt]

Not in the least.  The indicator should be that the solutions to the self made problems are not there in the near term. No A prospects ready to step in, including Cozens, terrible ufa market, a depressed market for mid pair d due to said ufa market, an albatross contract for a streaky scorer that is impossible to move due to full nmc, no goaltending prospect in the near term, and inability to assemble a roster where the parts are collectively more than the sum of their parts.  And this was all self inflicted.  No handcuff from a prior administration.  This administration let a Selke, Conn Smythe level talent go for nothing, a Vezina winner for nothing and a 20 plus goal power forward for a middling d prospect.  We will be cap challenged due to Skinner who doesn’t fit the coaching “philosophy” currently deployed and any trade will require a commitment to either the players needed to implement said philosophy and a major retool.  By not getting value from the other moves a major mortgaging of the future will be required to fix the present.  I hope ownership understands this. If they do not then it really doesn’t matter whether they keep him or not.  For all the talk about communication it seems that the folks at the top may be very well informed but utterly unqualified to understand the information.  
 

I responded in another thread to the idea of a big move for a Larkin type player.  Whether it is him or someone similar it is the type of move that will be needed to turn the corner. But it will be costly, possibly decimating the shallow talent pool and draft assets remaining after failing to get returns for players that did nothing more than fill a spot and collect a paycheck.  The present is bleak and the future perhaps even bleaker.  
 

And it was all self inflicted.  I do not buy the handcuff mandate on the ahem trade.  I think it was just an inexperienced and incompetent person trying to do things his way contrary to established precedent that it was a fools errand.  If I am wrong and the lack of an offer to EKane, the trade and letting Lehner walk for no value in return were organizational decisions from the top, well again it doesn’t matter, because the type of person needed to turn this around will never inhabit the offices of KBC.  That person will need to be bigger than ownership and able to operate without any consideration except icing a winning team. I fail to see any history indicating that will happen.

[dudacek]

10 minutes ago, 3putt said:

Not in the least.  The indicator should be that the solutions to the self made problems are not there in the near term. No A prospects ready to step in, including Cozens, terrible ufa market, a depressed market for mid pair d due to said ufa market, an albatross contract for a streaky scorer that is impossible to move due to full nmc, no goaltending prospect in the near term, and inability to assemble a roster where the parts are collectively more than the sum of their parts.  And this was all self inflicted.  No handcuff from a prior administration.  This administration let a Selke, Conn Smythe level talent go for nothing, a Vezina winner for nothing and a 20 plus goal power forward for a middling d prospect.  We will be cap challenged due to Skinner who doesn’t fit the coaching “philosophy” currently deployed and any trade will require a commitment to either the players needed to implement said philosophy and a major retool.  By not getting value from the other moves a major mortgaging of the future will be required to fix the present.  I hope ownership understands this. If they do not then it really doesn’t matter whether they keep him or not.  For all the talk about communication it seems that the folks at the top may be very well informed but utterly unqualified to understand the information.  
 

I responded in another thread to the idea of a big move for a Larkin type player.  Whether it is him or someone similar it is the type of move that will be needed to turn the corner. But it will be costly, possibly decimating the shallow talent pool and draft assets remaining after failing to get returns for players that did nothing more than fill a spot and collect a paycheck.  The present is bleak and the future perhaps even bleaker.  
 

And it was all self inflicted.  I do not buy the handcuff mandate on the ahem trade.  I think it was just an inexperienced and incompetent person trying to do things his way contrary to established precedent that it was a fools errand.  If I am wrong and the lack of an offer to EKane, the trade and letting Lehner walk for no value in return were organizational decisions from the top, well again it doesn’t matter, because the type of person needed to turn this around will never inhabit the offices of KBC.  That person will need to be bigger than ownership and able to operate without any consideration except icing a winning team. I fail to see any history indicating that will happen.

I wish you were around more.

[3putt]

9 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

People forget one thing.

You build a team with the draft and it takes 3 years for young players to develop.    The players that got drafted before Botterill got here where are they now ?

We all keep complaining about our middle six but Compher / Armia would look nice there now wouldn't they ?   

I like Zemgus but his puck control is sheary level bad sometimes and probably is KHL bound like Grigorenko.

Ristolainen is the only one since 2010 still on this team that is worth something and Zadarov we traded away. 

The only bad move he made was the return on O'reilly but that has rumours of the owners forcing him to do it.

Zemgus’ possession is top of the team and in case you haven’t been paying attention, he is pacing with a 9m dollar player in production. Compher is a middle six player that was part of a deal for a Selke/Conn Smythe level player of which he and a mid pairing d man are the only pieces still playing in the league other than the said Selke/Conn Smythe player.  And none are playing for us.  And the rumors of ownership are just that rumors.  A competent person would have refused to trade such a valuable asset. Period. And as far as drafting, how can you possibly have faith in someone who wasted high end second round draft choices for low ceiling dmen, when offensively talented and productive forwards were available? And when he does draft forward prospects, or trades for them, they are not put into situations to get the most out of them or for their development?  I hated the hire but was willing to give him a chance.  Nothing has indicated he was anything more than the beneficiary of mid level employee living off organizational success that he had nothing to do with. 

[Sabre fan]

strange some are quick to try and defend JBotto but dumped all over ex GMTM when  the sad truth is JBotto has indeed made a host of poor hockey decisions thus far. While everyone is trying to say that the ROR trade was "forced" on JBotto, it sure does reek of his kind of trade (great asset gone for basically nothing). It was obvious that JBotto wanted most of ex GMTM's guys gone so that this team was his team. he gave away the best assets he inherited not named jack when he lost the aforementioned ROR, EK and Lehner for basically a bag of hockey pucks. he simply could not afford to give away those players and have nothing to show in return.   I sure do miss Lindy and Darcy who worked well as a team and had such passion. Their teams likewise had that passion that is so sadly missing here since they were booted out. I'd take Lindy back in a heartbeat. Players cared when he was coaching...now they look like they care about only one thing...payday

[3putt]

1 minute ago, Sabre fan said:

strange some are quick to try and defend JBotto but dumped all over ex GMTM when  the sad truth is JBotto has indeed made a host of poor hockey decisions thus far. While everyone is trying to say that the ROR trade was "forced" on JBotto, it sure does reek of his kind of trade (great asset gone for basically nothing). It was obvious that JBotto wanted most of ex GMTM's guys gone so that this team was his team. he gave away the best assets he inherited not named jack when he lost the aforementioned ROR, EK and Lehner for basically a bag of hockey pucks. he simply could not afford to give away those players and have nothing to show in return.   I sure do miss Lindy and Darcy who worked well as a team and had such passion. Their teams likewise had that passion that is so sadly missing here since they were booted out. I'd take Lindy back in a heartbeat. Players cared when he was coaching...now they look like they care about only one thing...payday

And sadly the only players still producing are those he inherited from the prior administration. Said administration had its issues and probably lacked the professionalism that was desired by ownership, but their is no doubt talent identification was far superior. 

[3putt]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I wish you were around more.

I hope you are well.

[Scottysabres]

37 minutes ago, 3putt said:

Not in the least.  The indicator should be that the solutions to the self made problems are not there in the near term. No A prospects ready to step in, including Cozens, terrible ufa market, a depressed market for mid pair d due to said ufa market, an albatross contract for a streaky scorer that is impossible to move due to full nmc, no goaltending prospect in the near term, and inability to assemble a roster where the parts are collectively more than the sum of their parts.  And this was all self inflicted.  No handcuff from a prior administration.  This administration let a Selke, Conn Smythe level talent go for nothing, a Vezina winner for nothing and a 20 plus goal power forward for a middling d prospect.  We will be cap challenged due to Skinner who doesn’t fit the coaching “philosophy” currently deployed and any trade will require a commitment to either the players needed to implement said philosophy and a major retool.  By not getting value from the other moves a major mortgaging of the future will be required to fix the present.  I hope ownership understands this. If they do not then it really doesn’t matter whether they keep him or not.  For all the talk about communication it seems that the folks at the top may be very well informed but utterly unqualified to understand the information.  
 

I responded in another thread to the idea of a big move for a Larkin type player.  Whether it is him or someone similar it is the type of move that will be needed to turn the corner. But it will be costly, possibly decimating the shallow talent pool and draft assets remaining after failing to get returns for players that did nothing more than fill a spot and collect a paycheck.  The present is bleak and the future perhaps even bleaker.  
 

And it was all self inflicted.  I do not buy the handcuff mandate on the ahem trade.  I think it was just an inexperienced and incompetent person trying to do things his way contrary to established precedent that it was a fools errand.  If I am wrong and the lack of an offer to EKane, the trade and letting Lehner walk for no value in return were organizational decisions from the top, well again it doesn’t matter, because the type of person needed to turn this around will never inhabit the offices of KBC.  That person will need to be bigger than ownership and able to operate without any consideration except icing a winning team. I fail to see any history indicating that will happen.

Completely agree 3putt. And it was with some of what you stated here, on a mortgaging move, that I posted the Larkin idea. I am of your mindset, we aren't getting out of this without a price to pay to help right the some of the roster assets we have here. It would be the type of move, imo, that will cost short term, but stabilize the situation, giving the fans some hope and the players some much needed forward progress.

Will it be done? I am equally of the mindset as you appear to be, that no, it won't be, and specifically because the owners appear to not get out of their own way to get it done.

[Ross Rhea]

42 minutes ago, 3putt said:

Not in the least.  The indicator should be that the solutions to the self made problems are not there in the near term. No A prospects ready to step in, including Cozens, terrible ufa market, a depressed market for mid pair d due to said ufa market, an albatross contract for a streaky scorer that is impossible to move due to full nmc, no goaltending prospect in the near term, and inability to assemble a roster where the parts are collectively more than the sum of their parts.  And this was all self inflicted.  No handcuff from a prior administration.  This administration let a Selke, Conn Smythe level talent go for nothing, a Vezina winner for nothing and a 20 plus goal power forward for a middling d prospect.  We will be cap challenged due to Skinner who doesn’t fit the coaching “philosophy” currently deployed and any trade will require a commitment to either the players needed to implement said philosophy and a major retool.  By not getting value from the other moves a major mortgaging of the future will be required to fix the present.  I hope ownership understands this. If they do not then it really doesn’t matter whether they keep him or not.  For all the talk about communication it seems that the folks at the top may be very well informed but utterly unqualified to understand the information.  
 

I responded in another thread to the idea of a big move for a Larkin type player.  Whether it is him or someone similar it is the type of move that will be needed to turn the corner. But it will be costly, possibly decimating the shallow talent pool and draft assets remaining after failing to get returns for players that did nothing more than fill a spot and collect a paycheck.  The present is bleak and the future perhaps even bleaker.  
 

And it was all self inflicted.  I do not buy the handcuff mandate on the ahem trade.  I think it was just an inexperienced and incompetent person trying to do things his way contrary to established precedent that it was a fools errand.  If I am wrong and the lack of an offer to EKane, the trade and letting Lehner walk for no value in return were organizational decisions from the top, well again it doesn’t matter, because the type of person needed to turn this around will never inhabit the offices of KBC.  That person will need to be bigger than ownership and able to operate without any consideration except icing a winning team. I fail to see any history indicating that will happen.

Yup, I agree but i'm not sure I want JBot to be the one to make said trade as I don't think he is capable of doing it correctly for what is needed.

[jahnyc]

In terms of where we are currently, I am really concerned that improvement will not come in the near future at the forward position from Rochester or our pipeline.  Do we have any forwards in Rochester that can make the Sabres next season (other than maybe Casey)?  I find this situation kind of shocking considering our draft position over the last number of years, the number of picks made, and the young players acquired in trades.  

I also understand that we have a fair amount of cap space for next season, but that will go quickly to fill the number of spots that will be open because of departing players and the Skinner contract is going to become a significant drag on our overall cap going forward.  Maybe we can trade one or more of our defenseman for some help upfront, but this has not happened to this point (and would have made more sense to have been done for the beginning of the season).

We all have our views about JB's performance to date, but I do not have confidence in his ability to move the team in the right direction in the the near term or future.

[dudacek]

Due to waiver eligibility, Thompson will be on the team unless he really sucks. He looked improved this year, but he missed a big chunk of needed development time and is rehabbing.

Casey and Asplund will certainly be in the mix. A decent playoff run as the top 10 centres in Rochester would certainly help cement their status.

[Kruppstahl]

On 2/28/2020 at 5:43 PM, Tondas said:

I really, really doubt Terry fires JBOT after this season.

I'm curious why you say that.  There is a contingent among Sabres fans right now that believes the same.

Where does this come from?  Is this related to the theory that this season has gone "according to plan" and the real plan kicks in this summer?  Botterill has gotten so much wrong, and so very little right, there is a damning mountain of evidence in support of his termination.

I have no idea how Pegula could retain him any longer.  Not sure why he still has a job now, to be honest.

 

[Kruppstahl]

3 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Jeez, I hope not. Terry could make the decision right now. Should make it now? The final games don't matter. That homestand was all you really need to know.

As if Botterill's record wasn't already bad enough!  He just did some buying at the trade deadline in an effort to play meaningful games in March so the team can "learn to win" or some such rubbish.  That's over before March arrived.  Yet another error in judgment from the clueless one.

The problem, as always, is that Pegula himself is clueless.  We as fans of the organization are always going to be put in a delicate position because of that.  What does Pegula think right now?  How has he arrived at his conclusions?  Who is feeding him information and who does he trust to be telling him the way it is right now?

Is he taking most of his information from Botterill himself?  Does he realize there is a bit of a conflict of interest there? LOL.

Having observed everything that Botterill has done to date, what are the odds he suddenly morphs into a sharp, competent GM in, say, the next 12 months?  

 

 

[Carmel Corn]

5 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

As if Botterill's record wasn't already bad enough!  He just did some buying at the trade deadline in an effort to play meaningful games in March so the team can "learn to win" or some such rubbish.  That's over before March arrived.  Yet another error in judgment from the clueless one.

The problem, as always, is that Pegula himself is clueless.  We as fans of the organization are always going to be put in a delicate position because of that.  What does Pegula think right now?  How has he arrived at his conclusions?  Who is feeding him information and who does he trust to be telling him the way it is right now?

Is he taking most of his information from Botterill himself?  Does he realize there is a bit of a conflict of interest there? LOL.

Having observed everything that Botterill has done to date, what are the odds he suddenly morphs into a sharp, competent GM in, say, the next 12 months?  

 

 

I agree in general, however I wonder if it is so much Terry P. vs. Kim P.?  Is she not accountable too as the so-called (self-proclaimed) President?  JBot has to go, but I wonder which of the Pegula's is actually more clueless (if not both)!

[Kruppstahl]

1 minute ago, Carmel Corn said:

I agree in general, however I wonder if it is so much Terry P. vs. Kim P.?  Is she not accountable too as the so-called (self-proclaimed) President?  JBot has to go, but I wonder which of the Pegula's is actually more clueless (if not both)!

I am inclined to think she is more involved in the mundane, day to day, business side of the organization.

There is a ton going on over there all the time that most hockey fans never discuss, because it's not particularly interesting, nor does it involve sports.

I think the decision to hire/fire the GM comes from Terry, perhaps with a bit of input from Kim.

I think you can fault Kim for lots of other things within the organization that focus on other things.

I'm told the building is already somewhat dated in appearance and a bit "run down", for example.  That's probably on Kim.

 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Kruppstahl said:

As if Botterill's record wasn't already bad enough!  He just did some buying at the trade deadline in an effort to play meaningful games in March so the team can "learn to win" or some such rubbish.  That's over before March arrived.  Yet another error in judgment from the clueless one.

The problem, as always, is that Pegula himself is clueless.  We as fans of the organization are always going to be put in a delicate position because of that.  What does Pegula think right now?  How has he arrived at his conclusions?  Who is feeding him information and who does he trust to be telling him the way it is right now?

Is he taking most of his information from Botterill himself?  Does he realize there is a bit of a conflict of interest there? LOL.

Having observed everything that Botterill has done to date, what are the odds he suddenly morphs into a sharp, competent GM in, say, the next 12 months?  

 

 

My thought on the deadline is JBot does feel his job is hanging by a thread and so he desperately tried to make us more competitive now rather than selling off to improve the team in the future/longer term. Grasping at straws.

I still remember the TSN guys on deadline day proclaiming Buffalo the big loser on the day and as one of them (forget which one) shook his head and said "I don't know what the heck is going on there." 

JBot's had long enough. We need some sort of big change to give us any glimmer of hope for the future. Cozens by himself just isn't enough. 

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, SwampD said:

And one of those they were still trying to lose.

pretty sure JBot wasn't really trying to win first year. He wanted Dahlin. The 2 GMs are remarkably similar in ineptitude. 

[nfreeman]

1 minute ago, PerreaultForever said:

My thought on the deadline is JBot does feel his job is hanging by a thread and so he desperately tried to make us more competitive now rather than selling off to improve the team in the future/longer term. Grasping at straws.

I still remember the TSN guys on deadline day proclaiming Buffalo the big loser on the day and as one of them (forget which one) shook his head and said "I don't know what the heck is going on there." 

JBot's had long enough. We need some sort of big change to give us any glimmer of hope for the future. Cozens by himself just isn't enough. 

I agree with the bolded about a million percent.

The thing is, if the Sabres end up with the #7 pick, and JB traded it plus Risto for a good center, and then signed a good goalie, and then Cozens and TT both had good camps -- we'd all be very psyched for the start of next season.  And it's reasonably likely that JB can pull off those 2 moves (and that Cozens and TT look good in camp) -- but I just feel like it's more likely that he won't pull off both of those moves.  I also think both of those are critical, and long overdue.

 

[PerreaultForever]

Just now, nfreeman said:

I agree with the bolded about a million percent.

The thing is, if the Sabres end up with the #7 pick, and JB traded it plus Risto for a good center, and then signed a good goalie, and then Cozens and TT both had good camps -- we'd all be very psyched for the start of next season.  And it's reasonably likely that JB can pull off those 2 moves (and that Cozens and TT look good in camp) -- but I just feel like it's more likely that he won't pull off both of those moves.  I also think both of those are critical, and long overdue.

 

I suppose anything's possible, but I really don't get why some people (thinking of other older posts) think Tage Thompson will somehow be an impact next year. I saw absolutely nothing to make me think he has a future as an NHL hockey player. 

Cozens will be good, but he could easily be a year or two away from being that guy as well. I see nothing in the system that will turn this team around in one off season. 

[calti]

7 hours ago, 3putt said:

Not in the least.  The indicator should be that the solutions to the self made problems are not there in the near term. No A prospects ready to step in, including Cozens, terrible ufa market, a depressed market for mid pair d due to said ufa market, an albatross contract for a streaky scorer that is impossible to move due to full nmc, no goaltending prospect in the near term, and inability to assemble a roster where the parts are collectively more than the sum of their parts.  And this was all self inflicted.  No handcuff from a prior administration.  This administration let a Selke, Conn Smythe level talent go for nothing, a Vezina winner for nothing and a 20 plus goal power forward for a middling d prospect.  We will be cap challenged due to Skinner who doesn’t fit the coaching “philosophy” currently deployed and any trade will require a commitment to either the players needed to implement said philosophy and a major retool.  By not getting value from the other moves a major mortgaging of the future will be required to fix the present.  I hope ownership understands this. If they do not then it really doesn’t matter whether they keep him or not.  For all the talk about communication it seems that the folks at the top may be very well informed but utterly unqualified to understand the information.  
 

I responded in another thread to the idea of a big move for a Larkin type player.  Whether it is him or someone similar it is the type of move that will be needed to turn the corner. But it will be costly, possibly decimating the shallow talent pool and draft assets remaining after failing to get returns for players that did nothing more than fill a spot and collect a paycheck.  The present is bleak and the future perhaps even bleaker.  
 

And it was all self inflicted.  I do not buy the handcuff mandate on the ahem trade.  I think it was just an inexperienced and incompetent person trying to do things his way contrary to established precedent that it was a fools errand.  If I am wrong and the lack of an offer to EKane, the trade and letting Lehner walk for no value in return were organizational decisions from the top, well again it doesn’t matter, because the type of person needed to turn this around will never inhabit the offices of KBC.  That person will need to be bigger than ownership and able to operate without any consideration except icing a winning team. I fail to see any history indicating that will happen.

wow. i dont follow the sabres closely but it is obvious they dont have the talent level to be an above .500 team. So its either the GMs fault or Pegulas fault or a combo.

bad owners are amazingly consistent. guys like ralph wilson at least had a couple of decent eras before he dumped the people responsible for the success.