Rumor: About Botterill’s Future Being in Doubt

[triumph_communes]

10 minutes ago, nucci said:

don't say we don't have patience, ya'll...we've been putting up with this crap for years...your constant defense of Botterill is interesting.....still a bottom team...he should have improved this team by now with the time he has had

 

4 minutes ago, Billznut said:

Exactly. Fans needing patience and the ill conceived theory that Sabres fans not being “good” fans has anything to do with the current state of this sorry franchise the past 9 years are two topics that get brought up just a little too often around here. Fans have every right to be pissed off and question EVERY single thing this franchise, ownership and management does. 

 

Are ya'll too young to remember our heroic battles for 9th place year after year after year, until we finally got lucky acquiring talent from some shrewd trades, just to lose the co-captains to shrewd ownership?  Now we have an all-star center and defenseman and prospects in the system.  That makes me happy.

[WildCard]

Just now, triumph_communes said:

 

 

Are ya'll too young to remember our heroic battles for 9th place year after year after year, until we finally got lucky acquiring talent from some shrewd trades, just to lose the co-captains to shrewd ownership?  Now we have an all-star center and defenseman and prospects in the system.  That makes me happy.

We might be considering those battles for being better than half the league last happened a decade ago 

[dudacek]

36 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

Convenient you left out the Kahun trade which is showing signs of potentially being a very good one for him...

It wasn’t a list comparing Jason’s good moves to his bad ones, it was an accounting of the opportunity cost of these particular moves.

Jason has done some good things, just not enough of them. And the number of bad moves he’s made have robbed me of the confidence that he will be able to execute the plan @triumph_communes is so confident in.

 

[Billznut]

1 minute ago, triumph_communes said:

 

 

Are ya'll too young to remember our heroic battles for 9th place year after year after year, until we finally got lucky acquiring talent from some shrewd trades, just to lose the co-captains to shrewd ownership?  Now we have an all-star center and defenseman and prospects in the system.  That makes me happy.

We got our all star center and defenseman from finishing DEAD last in the NHL numerous times the past 5 years. Lol  Not a very good point to try and bring up when discussing the utter failures of the worst franchise in the league. 

[triumph_communes]

8 minutes ago, Billznut said:

We got our all star center and defenseman from finishing DEAD last in the NHL numerous times the past 5 years. Lol  Not a very good point to try and bring up when discussing the utter failures of the worst franchise in the league. 

Dahlin is a teenager.  We didn't pick 1OA 6 times like Edmonton..  And luckily, we got rid of the GM who kept picking forwards instead of building from defenseman out-- especially when we're going to lose another defenseman in the upcoming expansion draft people keep overlooking.

Edited March 10, 2020 by triumph_communes

[nucci]

18 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

 

 

Are ya'll too young to remember our heroic battles for 9th place year after year after year, until we finally got lucky acquiring talent from some shrewd trades, just to lose the co-captains to shrewd ownership?  Now we have an all-star center and defenseman and prospects in the system.  That makes me happy.

Went to my 1st game in Dec 1970...so yes I'm too young...glad you're happy that we are missing the playoffs again

[Billznut]

4 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Dahlin is a teenager.  We didn't pick 1OA 6 times like Edmonton..  And luckily, we got rid of the GM who kept picking forwards instead of building from defenseman out-- especially when we're going to lose another defenseman in the upcoming expansion draft people keep overlooking.

Any stars on this team are a direct result of a terrible finish the year before. We haven’t had good management or scouting in years and years. Zero development going on. No diamonds in the rough from later rounds other than Olaffson. This franchise has done just about every conceivable thing wrong and franchise can do the past 9 years. And there are no disputing the facts and results and I’m glad the real fans are getting pissed. The only thing better would be a half empty arena to further embarrass the Pegulas into getting their act straight. But sadly I know that won’t happen here. 

[Billznut]

2 minutes ago, nucci said:

Went to my 1st game in Dec 1970...so yes I'm too young...glad you're happy that we are missing the playoffs again

Exactly. Same here. Been going since 1975. Don’t you love being lectured by someone who lacks the overall view and experience of being a life long Sabres fan over generations and seeing what good and bad hockey looks like? A lot of us have seen the good bad and ugly of this franchise. And we know when things are in the gutter, such as they’ve been for nine years running now. 

[triumph_communes]

4 minutes ago, Billznut said:

Exactly. Same here. Been going since 1975. Don’t you love being lectured by someone who lacks the overall view and experience of being a life long Sabres fan over generations and seeing what good and bad hockey looks like? A lot of us have seen the good bad and ugly of this franchise. And we know when things are in the gutter, such as they’ve been for nine years running now. 

They've been in the gutter.  Sorry for being optimistic about the future now that we at least have half of a prospect system and two superstars in place...  Buffalo hasn't had a superstar since LaFontaine.  Every other good player since then has been some over-hyped blue-collar player, undersized, or a goalie.

It doesn't take much effort to blame the current leader for a problem.  Finding the source of the woes is the hard part.  If you want to blame drafting and point to the guy who has only been here 3 years, you're misplacing the blame.  Murray had nothing to start with, but at least had a ton of picks to make his own.  He then spent them like a crackwhore and failed on everything except a 7th rounder I bet he never even saw play...  His double 2nds trade targets and 1sts amounted to tabloid articles and prospects hardly anyone remembers, but not play on the ice.  But he's gone and its over.

[dudacek]

41 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

 

 

Are ya'll too young to remember our heroic battles for 9th place year after year after year, until we finally got lucky acquiring talent from some shrewd trades, just to lose the co-captains to shrewd ownership?  Now we have an all-star center and defenseman and prospects in the system.  That makes me happy.

 

 

29 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Dahlin is a teenager.  We didn't pick 1OA 6 times like Edmonton..  And luckily, we got rid of the GM who kept picking forwards instead of building from defenseman out-- especially when we're going to lose another defenseman in the upcoming expansion draft people keep overlooking.

Just to be clear the centre was here already, the defenceman was a gift of the lottery balls, and the team has had “prospects in the system” going back to the Grigorenko Girgensons McCabe draft of 2012.

You praise GMJB for his philosophies, but I haven’t read you praising him for his actual moves.

Skinner the trade was fabulous. Skinner the contract a total fiasco

Signing Hutton to be our number one goalie has been a failure

Hockey trades for Jokiharju and (so far) Kahun look very savvy.

Trading futures for Miller and Montour have certainly improved our defence, just like trading away Kane and O’Reilly for those futures certainly hurt our offence.

Signing Johansson to play 2C failed

Mittelstadt at 2C failed. Mittelstadt and Thompson’s development appears to be (so far) poorly handled.

And of course there is the gaping hole at 2C that he created.

His buy-low trades like Sheary, Beaulieu, Vesey etc. have done nothing to improve the team.

There is this false idea that Botterill started with nothing. He started with Risto, Kane, ROR, Jack, Sam, KO, Larry, Z, McCabe and Olofsson and was gifted Dahlin in the lottery.

What am I missing here? Show me how the players he has acquired have made the team better.

Edited March 10, 2020 by dudacek

[nfreeman]

56 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

The trades you mentioned, plus Montour, are all the trades Botterill has done to improve the team.

The other trades for cap dumps is what he did just to fill the void in the roster with marginal NHL players as opposed to non-NHL players that were available via FA.  There simply weren't any players in FA over the last few seasons that didn't take hometown discounts or didn't sign absurd contracts that would have us in a bad cap situation starting next season.  Find me replacement UFA players who signed elsewhere over the last three seasons and construct me a better roster than we had.   All of his 'bad cap' moves end this season.  Blame Murray for emptying the cupboards, not Botterill for not working voodoo magic via trades.  I get it, ya'll hate the ROR trade, but the rest of Botterill's work is a smart, long-term plan I think ya'll just don't have the patience for.  Building from the back-end out and filling up the prospect pools first.  Oh, and we have our firsts for every year going forward.

No.  Frolik was a bad move for an unproductive mediocrity with a big cap hit who has not, despite your claims to the contrary, improved the PK and that has resulted in loss of cap space next season.

 

 

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

No.  Frolik was a bad move for an unproductive mediocrity with a big cap hit who has not, despite your claims to the contrary, improved the PK and that has resulted in loss of cap space next season.

 

 

Sheary/Hunwick was a bad cap move that prevented us from acquiring a $5 million player.

Was Nathan Beaulieu worth 2.4 million and a 3rd? How about Jimmy Vesey?

There are opportunity costs to these moves.

[TrueBlueGED]

Botterill has had 3 seasons and 2 coaches and it's entirely possible he doesn't improve his team in the standings by a single point over what he inherited. Individual moves here or there that work out are irrelevant when the whole is, at best, not improved. 

[dudacek]

Berglund and Sobotka were $8 million in cap space for performances equal to Curtis Lazar’s $800,000.

Only luck saved Jason there.

So many failed moves.

[freester]

Wasting 3 years of Casey Middlestadts entry level contract was unforgivable. 

[nfreeman]

55 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Sheary/Hunwick was a bad cap move that prevented us from acquiring a $5 million player.

Was Nathan Beaulieu worth 2.4 million and a 3rd? How about Jimmy Vesey?

There are opportunity costs to these moves.

Absolutely.  I was merely refuting the claim that all of the bad cap moves are gone after this season.

Moreover, even if the assertion about a clean cap after this season had been true -- so what?  No good FA is coming to a poopshow like the Sabres this summer, and free agency is not the place where teams are built.  Not to mention the fact that no one can possibly have any confidence in JB's ability to identify and close the deal with good FAs.

[Kruppstahl]

6 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Absolutely.  I was merely refuting the claim that all of the bad cap moves are gone after this season.

Moreover, even if the assertion about a clean cap after this season had been true -- so what?  No good FA is coming to a poopshow like the Sabres this summer, and free agency is not the place where teams are built.  Not to mention the fact that no one can possibly have any confidence in JB's ability to identify and close the deal with good FAs.

A good example is that Hutton is already under contract for next season!  I bet he sticks around next year, too! 

That could change if we have a new GM/coach, but if we don't, and if Hutton is still in Buffalo....ugh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brawndo]

32 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Absolutely.  I was merely refuting the claim that all of the bad cap moves are gone after this season.

Moreover, even if the assertion about a clean cap after this season had been true -- so what?  No good FA is coming to a poopshow like the Sabres this summer, and free agency is not the place where teams are built.  Not to mention the fact that no one can possibly have any confidence in JB's ability to identify and close the deal with good FAs.

A new GM/HC Combo might be more enticing to UFAs though 

[dudacek]

14 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

A new GM/HC Combo might be more enticing to UFAs though 

I wonder if Ralph remains the draw he appeared to be when he was hired.

[Brawndo]

Just now, dudacek said:

I wonder if Ralph remains the draw he appeared to be when he was hired.

Anything is possible. Friedman mentioned on the Spitting Chiclets Podcast that he wonders if Ralph’s Future with the team might be in management or POHO 

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Brawndo said:

Anything is possible. Friedman mentioned on the Spitting Chiclets Podcast that he wonders if Ralph’s Future with the team might be in management or POHO 

I'm still amazed by the accolades sent his way by players when he was hired: both the volume and the seeming sincerity. We haven't heard or seen anything from the players this year that has contradicted it either.

As far as Friedman's comments, the Pegulas aren't going to vary from their "good people" mantra when they replace Jason, and Ralph is certainly a qualified hockey department administrator. I can't see him trading and scouting and analyzing and negotiating, though I suppose he could hire and lead a team consisting of experts in each area; pretty sure that is the model Mike Gillis is advocating if he ever leads an organization again.

Randy Sexton seems to be a mundane middle management type, but Steve Greeley is younger and a better talker. I wonder where he stands in the Pegulas' eyes and how much blame/credit he get for Sabre moves.

[dudacek]

"It’s impossible to say, `We’re going to be this in three years, or this in five years.’ You just go about the process. And hopefully, one day you wake up and you have a good prospect pool and you realize, `Hey, I think we’re going to be a competitive team at this point.’ You look at the Philadelphias and the Colorados today, all of sudden some of those young guys are real players and both those teams, you look at where they are in the standings today and it’s like, `Whoa.’ So you just stick with it. There’s no specific timeline."

Jason Botterill yesterday afternoon to Terry Pegula?

Nope, Steve Yzerman to the Athletic on his plan for Detroit.

[darksabre]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

"It’s impossible to say, `We’re going to be this in three years, or this in five years.’ You just go about the process. And hopefully, one day you wake up and you have a good prospect pool and you realize, `Hey, I think we’re going to be a competitive team at this point.’ You look at the Philadelphias and the Colorados today, all of sudden some of those young guys are real players and both those teams, you look at where they are in the standings today and it’s like, `Whoa.’ So you just stick with it. There’s no specific timeline. Also I traded picks for nothing, my bad. "

Jason Botterill yesterday afternoon to Terry Pegula?

Nope, Steve Yzerman to the Athletic on his plan for Detroit.

Fixed it for you.

[LGR4GM]

I'd trust yzerman more than botts

[WildCard]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I'd trust yzerman more than botts

Well, yeah