Solving the 2C Problem

[LGR4GM]

9 hours ago, JohninMinn. said:

No way.

Way. Risto like always has slid back into his habits. Mitts is a prospect and Cirelli is better. CJ smith is not needed. Why waste another 2nd round pick on a defender. I would offer them that trade tomorrow and then not look back. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

46 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Bottom 6 left wing for sure. Some older guy who hits things or is supposedly good at the PK. We need more of those. 

That will be angry larry’s job next season 

[WildCard]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That will be angry larry’s job next season 

If he stays

[LGR4GM]

24 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That will be angry larry’s job next season 

Holy ***** hell seriously? You want the only other NHL center on the team to play wing? 

[Taro T]

35 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That will be angry larry’s job next season 

They've tried Larsson at wing before.  (And not only on the checking line.)  He has proven to be the exception to the rule "every center can play wing."  Pretty sure it's a mental/status thing with him (the "me be too good to just be lowly wing" attitude), but he has been noticeably slower and less aware when playing wing in the past.  

When he eventually gets beaten out for the checking line C role, they need to trade his butt ASAP, because he will be of no use whatsoever for the Sabres at that point.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

They've tried Larsson at wing before.  (And not only on the checking line.)  He has proven to be the exception to the rule "every center can play wing."  Pretty sure it's a mental/status thing with him (the "me be too good to just be lowly wing" attitude), but he has been noticeably slower and less aware when playing wing in the past.  

When he eventually gets beaten out for the checking line C role, they need to trade his butt ASAP, because he will be of no use whatsoever for the Sabres at that point.

That’s a fair comment.  Assuming he gets re-signed, and whether Lazar and Girgensons also get re-signed will go along way toward determining where he settles in next season.  It’s easy to put forth scenarios where the GLO is maintained next year and that maybe the best strategy.  However, I can also see Jbot allowing Z to walk for cap reasons and Lazar centering Larry (LW) and KO (RW).

It will be interesting to see what Jbot does with the rest of the roster once he secures a legit 2C (the purpose of this thread).  

It would be fair to think that Jbot has a 1st line written and Skinner as 2LW written in pen, the 4th line written in heavy pencil (especially the way they are playing right now) because Z and Larry are UFAs and then looking at Lazar, Kahun, Mojo, the kids (Cozens, Thompson and Mitts) to fill out the middle 6 less the 2C and any 4th line holes created by a UFA departure.  I’m anticipating a lineup very similar in roster construction to 2005–06.  

Don’t forget Larry and Z may want to go elsewhere. We can’t assume they want to return and we also can’t assume we’ll be the highest bidder for their services.  

As to Palat, why wouldn’t we want to add a 50 pt winger under 30 with 2 years left on his deal at a fair 5.3 per season. The bigger issue is how many L shooters do we want in our lineup.  Of our 8 returning forwards (4 signed, 4 RFAs) we are evenly split 4R 4L.  Larry and Z (and Vesey) shoot L.  Cozens and TT shoot R and Mitts L.  TB’s Johnson shoots R and Palat shoots L.  I don’t think having one or two wingers on their off wing is the end of the world, especially if they have experience playing there in the past.

 

[Taro T]

7 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That’s a fair comment.  Assuming he gets re-signed, and whether Lazar and Girgensons also get re-signed will go along way toward determining where he settles in next season.  It’s easy to put forth scenarios where the GLO is maintained next year and that maybe the best strategy.  However, I can also see Jbot allowing Z to walk for cap reasons and Lazar centering Larry (LW) and KO (RW).

It will be interesting to see what Jbot does with the rest of the roster once he secures a legit 2C (the purpose of this thread).  

It would be fair to think that Jbot has a 1st line written and Skinner as 2LW written in pen, the 4th line written in heavy pencil (especially the way they are playing right now) because Z and Larry are UFAs and then looking at Lazar, Kahun, Mojo, the kids (Cozens, Thompson and Mitts) to fill out the middle 6 less the 2C and any 4th line holes created by a UFA departure.  I’m anticipating a lineup very similar in roster construction to 2005–06.  

Don’t forget Larry and Z may want to go elsewhere. We can’t assume they want to return and we also can’t assume we’ll be the highest bidder for their services.  

As to Palat, why wouldn’t we want to add a 50 pt winger under 30 with 2 years left on his deal at a fair 5.3 per season. The bigger issue is how many L shooters do we want in our lineup.  Of our 8 returning forwards (4 signed, 4 RFAs) we are evenly split 4R 4L.  Larry and Z (and Vesey) shoot L.  Cozens and TT shoot R and Mitts L.  TB’s Johnson shoots R and Palat shoots L.  I don’t think having one or two wingers on their off wing is the end of the world, especially if they have experience playing there in the past.

 

Larsson and Girgensons might be looking at getting out of town as quickly as possible but they've never indicated it by their play on the ice nor afaicr have they ever mentioned wanting to leave / see what life is like elsewhere.  So, until they leave, will maintain the belief they're staying.

And, agree that if they're back and Okposo isn't for whatever reason that Lazar is the obvious replacement for Kyle.  And, yes, Lazar will likely take their faceoffs (his skill there is why he & Frolik are the 1st pair out on the PK though Larry & Z are the #1 pair) but he will take the W responsibility as soon as play dictates that he & Larry can swap.  When he had looks with that line earlier, he was W and his flexibility combined with Larry's lack thereof indicate that Larry will be the C for all purposes except faceoffs.

Switching gears towards Palat, as long as he doesn't come in in lieu of a true 2C and the #'s can work, don't have an issue with it.  He's a true top 6 W and an upgrade over most of the F's the Sabres have.

But, really doubt he's on Botterill's radar as my expectation is that he expects he can get the 3 remaining openings there (assuming 1st & checking lines are covered) covered by some combination of Johansson, Thompson, Kahun, Lazar, Mittelstadt, & Cozens.  And if he doesn't expect that, then would expect 1 of Simmonds, Vesey, or (shudders) Frolik back to fill the gap more cheaply than Palat.

And Asplund will push for the 3C role as well.

[freester]

11 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Palat can and has played either wing, just like Kahun and MoJo.  This is all about figuring out who works well with whom. Why take Palat?.  We need more good forwards and maybe they we'll get a better deal if we take both and maybe they'll be more likely to want to come here if they can play with someone they have established chemistry with.

Actually he traded away two, traded for one and signed (4/24/2018) and developed one.  2 out and 2 in.

Mojo is a 3rd line winger that we play as a 2nd line C.  Botteril does not deserve credit for VO.  Your continued defense of Botterils incompetence amazes me.  Is he a relative?  I'm sure you will rationalize another offseason of terrible personnel moves.  There is no defense for such a mediocre team to be over the cap.  He has managed the cap poorly in addition to all the rest of his errors. Managing the salary cap was supposedly his are of expertise when he was hired.   I know you like to blame TM for all that ails the Sabres.

[GASabresIUFAN]

On 2/27/2020 at 12:13 PM, freester said:

Mojo is a 3rd line winger that we play as a 2nd line C.  Botteril does not deserve credit for VO.  Your continued defense of Botterils incompetence amazes me.  Is he a relative?  I'm sure you will rationalize another offseason of terrible personnel moves.  There is no defense for such a mediocre team to be over the cap.  He has managed the cap poorly in addition to all the rest of his errors. Managing the salary cap was supposedly his are of expertise when he was hired.   I know you like to blame TM for all that ails the Sabres.

Really?

My defense of Botterill in general is that this is an improving team with a much brighter future then the mess he inherited from TM.  We are out of cap hell after this season.  I have been very critical of Jbot on some of his moves such as Frolik, and the Kane trade, and have been one of loudest voices screaming at him to get us a real 2C. I’ve also applauded moves like Jokiharju and Skinner and bring in Scandella and Pommers for Foligno and Ennis.  I’ve also taken wait and see on others.  I’m certainly no Jbot apologist, I just not blinded by hate because he traded the sainted ROR when I see an overall improved team that is playing meaningful games in the last quarter of the season for the first time in 6 years, that is improved in real and adjusted terms at both ends of the ice, has cap space this summer to fix the 2C and goaltending issues plus has 3 near ready talented prospects that could easily make the jump this summer and contribute. 

What I honestly don’t understand is people that want him fired yesterday after only 3 years on the job despite the improved team they watch each night.  

PS I admittedly loath TM. I think he is one of the worst GMs in NHL history.  Right up there with Mike Milbury who amazing was an NHL GM for over a decade. Other then ROR, I can’t think of a single move he made that I approved of other then maybe signing Gionta. His waste of assets was of biblical proportions with the Lehner, Kulikov and McNabb trades being the worst of a terrible lot.  Just imagine how much more depth our team would have if he had kept the extra 1st sand early 2nds he threw away and if just one or two of his terrible 2nd rd picks (names such as Hurley, Karaback, Cornel, and Bailey) would have worked out. When he finally got fired he had us in cap hell with an aging underperforming team, with a near talentless pipeline that had zero future.  I love that Jbot ripped that terrible and poorly constructed team down to the studs. It needed to be done.  I accept and agree with the critics who say Jbot hasn’t done enough with the offense, but comparing the future of the team Jbot is building to one the TM created, Jbot wins hands down.

Who signed VO to his ELC and brought him here from Europe? Who gave him a full year in the A to get acclimated to NA hockey? Who gave him an opportunity to play in the top 6 in the NHL? All TM did was let one his scouts write Victor’s name on a piece of paper and hand it to an NHL official.

Edited February 28, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

Instead of comparing the job Botterill has done to Murray, can we compare it to other GMs of teams that finished with less than 90 points in 2017?

Waddell, Chevaldayoff, Fletcher, Blake, Tallon, Nill, Shero, Benning, Chayka and Sakic?

Six of them are in the playoffs right now, two others are in the mix. After Benning makes it this year, Jason and Chayka will be the only ones who haven't and Chayka still might.

Edited February 28, 2020 by dudacek

[freester]

8 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Instead of comparing the job Botterill has done to Murray, can we compare it to other GMs of teams that finished with less than 90 points in 2017?

Waddell, Chevaldayoff, Fletcher, Blake, Tallon, Nill, Shero, Benning, Chayka and Sakic?

Six of them are in the playoffs right now, two others are in the mix. After Benning makes it this year, Jason and Chayka will be the only ones who haven't and Chayka still might.

and Chayka has had the worst ownership in the league with limited financial resources and a team that spends closer to the floor than the cap while Botts is over the cap.

[Weave]

34 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Instead of comparing the job Botterill has done to Murray, can we compare it to other GMs of teams that finished with less than 90 points in 2017?

Waddell, Chevaldayoff, Fletcher, Blake, Tallon, Nill, Shero, Benning, Chayka and Sakic?

Six of them are in the playoffs right now, two others are in the mix. After Benning makes it this year, Jason and Chayka will be the only ones who haven't and Chayka still might.

If I could like this 10x I would.

There is no need to compare Bot to TM.  He’s not competing against TM.  He’s competing against the other league GMs.  And he hasn’t kept up with their pace for the most part.

And we’ve said it before, but it deserves to be said again, signing another GMs draft picks, developing another GMs talent, choosing the consensus #1 with the first pick are absolute rock bottom expectations for a GM.  They just don’t register on any meaningful scale of competence. Those are being captain of a ship on calm, open waters kind of stuff.

[triumph_communes]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Instead of comparing the job Botterill has done to Murray, can we compare it to other GMs of teams that finished with less than 90 points in 2017?

Waddell, Chevaldayoff, Fletcher, Blake, Tallon, Nill, Shero, Benning, Chayka and Sakic?

Six of them are in the playoffs right now, two others are in the mix. After Benning makes it this year, Jason and Chayka will be the only ones who haven't and Chayka still might.

The GMs riding on internal talent are playing well. The ones who didn’t have a pipeline are struggling. 
 

imagine that. trading away all our 1st rounders and having no depth makes the GM a few years later have a tough time. 
 

These threads are exhausting. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Instead of comparing the job Botterill has done to Murray, can we compare it to other GMs of teams that finished with less than 90 points in 2017?

Waddell, Chevaldayoff, Fletcher, Blake, Tallon, Nill, Shero, Benning, Chayka and Sakic?

Six of them are in the playoffs right now, two others are in the mix. After Benning makes it this year, Jason and Chayka will be the only ones who haven't and Chayka still might.

How many were new hires in 2017 ? How many inherited teams on as bad a shape as ours? Only Blake was hired when Jbot was.  Tallon was placed back as GM of the Panthers and has been there for years.  Sakic was hired in 2014. Chevy in 2011, Chaya in 2016.  Nill 2013. 
Most of these guys have had significantly longer tenures to execute their rebuilds. Instead of proving me wrong I think you have helped me establish that Jbot deserves at least one more year to see his plan through. Thanks 

PS Saying Blake made the playoffs is pretty misleading.  He inherited as playoff caliber team and they made the playoffs year one.  Last year they fell to 71 points and this year they are last in the West with 52 pts and further rebuilding.  Shero has also run his team into the ground. Context is an important thing.

Edited February 28, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[nfreeman]

The Islanders hired Lamoriello in the summer of 2018, after JB had been with the Sabres for 1 year (the Sabres finished DFL that year, btw).  The Islanders had missed the playoffs in the previous 2 years, including an 80-pt season in 2017-18, and had ONE playoff series win in the previous 15 years.

Then, a couple of months after LL joined, the Islanders lost Tavares -- a better player than ROR -- and got nothing back in trade, since JT left as a UFA.

Did the Islanders continue to muddle along in suckitude?

No.  They hired Trotz, brought in a goalie named Robin Lehner, made a bunch of small moves and improved by 23 pts to finish with 103 pts and knocked off Pittsburgh in the 1st round of the playoffs.  They are a near-lock to make the playoffs again this year -- in LL's and Trotz's 2nd year.

It doesn't need to take one hundred years of solitude.

JB is accountable. 

 

 

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

13 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

The Islanders hired Lamoriello in the summer of 2018, after JB had been with the Sabres for 1 year (the Sabres finished DFL that year, btw).  The Islanders had missed the playoffs in the previous 2 years, including an 80-pt season in 2017-18, and had ONE playoff series win in the previous 15 years.

Then, a couple of months after LL joined, the Islanders lost Tavares -- a better player than ROR -- and got nothing back in trade, since JT left as a UFA.

Did the Islanders continue to muddle along in suckitude?

No.  They hired Trotz, brought in a goalie named Robin Lehner, made a bunch of small moves and improved by 23 pts to finish with 103 pts and knocked off Pittsburgh in the 1st round of the playoffs.  They are a near-lock to make the playoffs again this year -- in LL's and Trotz's 2nd year.

It doesn't need to take one hundred years of solitude.

JB is accountable. 

 

 

 

You realize that the NYI score less goals then we do?  They are a playoff team because Trotz is the best defensive head coach in the NHL and he has done a great job on the Island.  Lehner was a product of the system and his numbers in Chi are very similar to what he produced in Buffalo.  

If Trotz was our coach we’d be a playoff team, but he isn’t and he wasn’t available for us to hire. Also LL is one of the greatest GMs in the history of the NHL with 1000 years of experience.  Apples to Oranges.

Edited February 28, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

Lamiorello did not inherit a team with Jack Eichel and Ryan O’Reilly. Sakic has a team with a worse record than thE Sabres tank teams. 

Your argument is based on the premise Botterill inherited the 2014 Sabres, not the 2017 Sabres.

Edited February 28, 2020 by dudacek

[freester]

6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

You realize that the NYI score less goals then we do?  They are a playoff team because Trotz is the best defensive head coach in the NHL and he has done a great job on the Island.  Lehner was a product of the system and his numbers in Chi are very similar to what he produced in Buffalo.  

If Trotz was our coach we’d be a playoff team, but he isn’t and he wasn’t available for us to hire. Also LL is one of the greatest GMs in the history of the NHL with 1000 years of experience.  Apples to Oranges.

Nonsense, Trotz was available for us to hire but the incompetent JB chose to stay with Housley who had no idea what he was doing. 

[nfreeman]

7 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

You realize that the NYI score less goals then we do?  They are a playoff team because Trotz is the best defensive head coach in the NHL and he has done a great job on the Island.  Lehner was a product of the system and his numbers in Chi are very similar to what he produced in Buffalo.  

If Trotz was our coach we’d be a playoff team, but he isn’t and he wasn’t available for us to hire. Also LL is one of the greatest GMs in the history of the NHL with 1000 years of experience.  Apples to Oranges.

I'm sure the Islanders' fans would prefer that they score more goals.

Do you think they would trade their team for the Sabres?

It doesn't matter why the Islanders have outperformed the Sabres during the JB era.  It only matters that they have done so -- just like pretty much every other team in the NHL.

Again:  JB is accountable for the results.  He took over a team that was in pretty much the same place that the Isles were in when LL took over and has to date improved their results not one iota -- while LL was improving the Isles by leaps and bounds in much less time than JB has had.

JB doesn't have to match the best results that anyone has achieved, but it would be nice if his results weren't at the bottom of the freaking barrel.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Lamiorello did not inherit a team with Jack Eichel and Ryan O’Reilly.

Your argument is based on the premise Botterill inherited the 2014 Sabres, not the 2017 Sabres.

no it isn’t.  He has been on the job 3 years and has us competing for a playoff spot.  You gave me a list of GMs who mostly had been on the job 4 or more years and implied that all these guys have down a better job.  That simply isn’t true.  Blake and Shero have run their teams into the ground.  Nill etc, had years of a head start get their guys into place to make a run for the playoffs.  Sakic, after a miracle year, took another 4 years to get this current excellent group into place and make the playoffs again.  Chevy got his team into the playoffs in year 4 then they missed again for 2 years before recent success.  

All I’ve ever said is that this team is trending in the right direction.  Why shouldn’t Jbot get the same opportunity Chevy and Sakic did?

[nfreeman]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

no it isn’t.  He has been on the job 3 years and has us competing for a playoff spot.  You gave me a list of GMs who mostly had been on the job 4 or more years and implied that all these guys have down a better job.  That simply isn’t true.  Blake and Shero have run their teams into the ground.  Nill etc, had years of a head start get their guys into place to make a run for the playoffs.  Sakic, after a miracle year, took another 4 years to get this current excellent group into place and make the playoffs again.  Chevy got his team into the playoffs in year 4 then they missed again for 2 years before recent success.  

All I’ve ever said is that this team is trending in the right direction.  Why shouldn’t Jbot get the same opportunity Chevy and Sakic did?

You are an excellent poster and I regret having to say this, but the bolded is #hammymath.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

I'm sure the Islanders' fans would prefer that they score more goals.

Do you think they would trade their team for the Sabres?

It doesn't matter why the Islanders have outperformed the Sabres during the JB era.  It only matters that they have done so -- just like pretty much every other team in the NHL.

Again:  JB is accountable for the results.  He took over a team that was in pretty much the same place that the Isles were in when LL took over and has to date improved their results not one iota -- while LL was improving the Isles by leaps and bounds in much less time than JB has had.

JB doesn't have to match the best results that anyone has achieved, but it would be nice if his results weren't at the bottom of the freaking barrel.

Goals for has gone up the last two years. 

Goals against have gone down the last two years. 

Last year they finished with 14 more points than the previous year, and are on pace to finish ten points higher than last year. 

This is not opinion. It's not speculation. It's indisputable fact. This team is trending in the right direction and improving. 

[nfreeman]

20 minutes ago, Hank said:

Goals for has gone up the last two years. 

Goals against have gone down the last two years. 

Last year they finished with 14 more points than the previous year, and are on pace to finish ten points higher than last year. 

This is not opinion. It's not speculation. It's indisputable fact. This team is trending in the right direction and improving. 

Well, I think we need to see how the season ends up.  Last year they finished with 76 pts, 2 years after JB took over a team that finished with 78 pts.  They currently have 29 wins and 66 pts with 19 games left.  If they go, say, 12-7 and finish with 41 wins and 90 pts, I think most here (but definitely not all) would be inclined to bring JB back.

But if they go, say, 7-12 and finish with 36 wins and 80 pts -- so the net gain is 2 pts in 3 years of JB's tenure -- I and I think most here will be inclined to cut him loose.

Either outcome is quite possible.

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

no it isn’t.  He has been on the job 3 years and has us competing for a playoff spot.  You gave me a list of GMs who mostly had been on the job 4 or more years and implied that all these guys have down a better job.  That simply isn’t true.  Blake and Shero have run their teams into the ground.  Nill etc, had years of a head start get their guys into place to make a run for the playoffs.  Sakic, after a miracle year, took another 4 years to get this current excellent group into place and make the playoffs again.  Chevy got his team into the playoffs in year 4 then they missed again for 2 years before recent success.  

All I’ve ever said is that this team is trending in the right direction.  Why shouldn’t Jbot get the same opportunity Chevy and Sakic did?

I gave you a list of teams that were approximately at the same place as where the Sabres were when Botts took over in order to demonstrate how little progress he's made comparatively over the same time.

Justify it any way you want, Botterill took over a team coming off 81 and 78 point seasons and made it worse two years running while most GMs coming from a similar starting points have made the playoffs. And he was handed Jack Eichel, Ryan O'Reilly and Rasmus Dahlin (and Larsson, Girgensons, Ullmark, Olofsson, Ristolainen and Reinhart).

Of all the multiple players he's brought in over his three years (Pouliot, Josefson, Scandella, Pomminstein, Beaulieu, O'Regan, Miller, Johansson, Sheary, Vesey, Mittelstadt, Frolik, Sobotka, Berglund, Hutton, Thompson, Pilut...) TWO (Montour and Jokiharju) are actually making a significant contribution to our improvement this year. His most high-profile acquisition is costing us $750,000 a goal.

I'm of the opinion we are trending in the right direction as well, but very little of that seems due to Jason's sharp player acquisition skills.

Edited February 28, 2020 by dudacek

[dudacek]

30 minutes ago, Hank said:

Goals for has gone up the last two years. 

Goals against have gone down the last two years. 

Last year they finished with 14 more points than the previous year, and are on pace to finish ten points higher than last year. 

This is not opinion. It's not speculation. It's indisputable fact. This team is trending in the right direction and improving. 

It is also indisputable fact that it will be well into the last month of his third season before Botterill has equaled the thoroughly mediocre results of the man he replaced.

Why doesn't that matter?