Solving the 2C Problem

[Taro T]

7 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Personally I think Cozens will grab that 2C spot next year.   

If he does, fantastic.  Will be very upset if Botterill pencils him into that slot.  Bring in a real 2C and if Mittelstadt and Cozens are both not part of the package to obtain said 2C and both miraculously have the light go on by October, then we're cooking with gas and probably should be buying lottery tickets because we'd be hot.

[Zamboni]

Unless a hockey miracle happens, I don’t see Cozens in any shape way or form being an effective 2C next season. I just don’t. He’ll be a developing young player who doesn’t look good some games, Looks good in others, and plays a 3rd line wing with a few games among the top six to see what he looks like. And that’s being very very optimistic. In 21-22 or 22-23, yea hopefully if all his stars align just right.... Cozens will be an effective 2C. But there is no way I’m expecting it next season. JB needs to get a seasoned effective 2C. For at the least, two full seasons while Cozens develops in the NHL.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

It doesn't bother you remotely that three consecutive seasons of genuinely trying to improve forward depth still has Murray acquisitions driving all offense, while the team is the single worst team in the NHL quantitatively and qualitatively at generating consistent significant scoring chances? His eye for depth forwards is legitimately the worst I've ever seen from an NHL GM, and his only two very good trades came in the midst of getting pushed around by other GMs in other moves, like when he paid Pittsburgh to take their junk and also accepted a clause that their pick in return would be upgraded if we found a way to clear Matt Hunwick's cap the following offseason. He then put himself in an ROR-like situation with his first good trade, his back against the wall, resulting in a 72 million dollar contract for a winger that his abominable middle six setup has poised for something like a 15 goal, 25 point season. 

the Hunwick cap, the cap rollover we might get because of Frolik (another dandy of an acquisition, what an eye for low-event, sub-replacement level forward talent this guy has), causing trouble even though we completely lucked out on more cap junk when Berglund, his locker-room fix, quit on the team, and with Bogosian refusing to report. Trading the first pick in the sixth round for a guaranteed-worse sixth rounder the following draft, when not ten minutes later Detroit traded a 6th round pick for a FIFTH rounder next year. An objectively mediocre prospect pool to boot, three years later, hopefully returning to a standings finish that got his predecessor fired, for the FIRST time in his tenure, after three years. One NHL center under contract for next season, and only two NHL centers in the organization today. Sitting on the roster imbalance we've been commenting on since May, which materially hurt players at each level of the organization, with D playing forward in Rochester, and legit defensemen riding the bench night after night up here while all of Frolik, Lazar, Vesey, Sheary, Rodrigues etc. got middle six playing time. None of this touching what might have been the single worst UFA class in franchise history, in the summer of 2017, which set up the environment for the unbelievable (and left-to-fester-for-an-unfathomably-long-time) season that was 2017-18.

The dude might fix it, but he has been a clownshow for three years in the meantime, creating three years of avoidable, unneccesary garbage 

I see JKru on a similar path/trajectory as McBean and I'm willing to give it a couple more years. 

[Derrico]

2 hours ago, Zamboni said:

Unless a hockey miracle happens, I don’t see Cozens in any shape way or form being an effective 2C next season. I just don’t. He’ll be a developing young player who doesn’t look good some games, Looks good in others, and plays a 3rd line wing with a few games among the top six to see what he looks like. And that’s being very very optimistic. In 21-22 or 22-23, yea hopefully if all his stars align just right.... Cozens will be an effective 2C. But there is no way I’m expecting it next season. JB needs to get a seasoned effective 2C. For at the least, two full seasons while Cozens develops in the NHL.

Meh, it really wouldn’t be a miracle a top 10 pick comes in his D2 season and makes a big impact.  However Botts would be a huge moron to bank on that happening.

[Randall Flagg]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

I see JKru on a similar path/trajectory as McBean and I'm willing to give it a couple more years. 

I've said this before, but you could take rounds 3 through 7 of ONE of McBeane's drafts and find more evidence of competence and promise than in the entirety of the Sabres last three years, before you even get to the on field results and other things that have went well

[Hank]

18 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I've said this before, but you could take rounds 3 through 7 of ONE of McBeane's drafts and find more evidence of competence and promise than in the entirety of the Sabres last three years, before you even get to the on field results and other things that have went well

The biggest factor in that is drafting 17/18 year old kids as opposed to 21/22 year old young men. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I like how you're trying to downplay the 2 year ***** up of botterill by suggesting the middle 6 is the problem. It's the top 6. We have probably 4 top 6 players with no idea where or how to get the other 2. 

Name a top 6 forward other than skinner botterill has identified and acquired in the last 3 years. There are none. It's nice he fixed the defense but the forwards continue to be a mess and it's only compounded by his mediocre drafting. Also adding in Dahlin is like giving gmtm credit for eichel. 

So we 3 defenders and skinner. 

Or are we just gonna sit  around for 2 years for Cozens? 

Mediocre drafting by whom?

TM traded away 100 picks and missed on every second round player he selected and kept, except maybe Asplund.  Guhle, the workout wonder that TM had to have, is a wonderful AAAA player.  He also missed on Nylander, a draft pick that Jbot salvaged to get Jokiharju.  So far from TM's drafts we have Jack, Sam, and VO.  That's it unless Asplund and Johansson become NHLers with the Sabres.  Not exactly a sterling track record on 25 picks, including 8 in the 1st two rounds including 2 2nd overall picks.

As to Jbot's drafting, he drafted Dahlin, Cozens and Mitts as his top 3 picks.  There is a distinct possibility that all 3 will be Sabres next season.  As to everyone else it is to soon to tell how well Jbot has drafted. Just because you may not like a selection doesn't make it a bad pick.  Only time will tell.

Besides Dahlin there are only 7 Sabres drafted by the club on this team.  4 are Regiers' picks and 3 from TM.  

Edited February 27, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[Randall Flagg]

39 minutes ago, Hank said:

The biggest factor in that is drafting 17/18 year old kids as opposed to 21/22 year old young men. 

I'm not directly comparing drafting - I'm meaning to say that one little area that comprises a tiny percentage of McBean's body of work is more impressive than Jason's three year totality 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'm not directly comparing drafting - I'm meaning to say that one little area that comprises a tiny percentage of McBean's body of work is more impressive than Jason's three year totality 

McBeane has a easier job, because of the lack of guaranteed contracts, cap carry over and drafting more mature athletes. Do you really think Jbot would have kept KO or Bogo if they didn’t have guaranteed contracts.

[LGR4GM]

19 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

McBeane has a easier job, because of the lack of guaranteed contracts, cap carry over and drafting more mature athletes. Do you really think Jbot would have kept KO or Bogo if they didn’t have guaranteed contracts.

Still waiting to hear what forwards of value botterill has brought in. He's mostly ***** that up. 

He wasted so much cap it's pathetic. Okposo and Bogo aren't the reason.

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Still waiting to hear what forwards of value botterill has brought in. He's mostly ***** that up. 

He wasted so much cap it's pathetic. Okposo and Bogo aren't the reason.

Skinner, Johansson, Lazar.  If he'd've brought in a real 2C, they'd all be important contributors.

Cozens & Mittelstadt will be good w/in a couple of seasons.

Broken record, but he needs to trade for a 2C this June.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Skinner, Johansson, Lazar.  If he'd've brought in a real 2C, they'd all be important contributors.

Cozens & Mittelstadt will be good w/in a couple of seasons.

Broken record, but he needs to trade for a 2C this June.

So skinner. That's his only top 6 forward acquisition in 3 years. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

25 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Still waiting to hear what Defense of value TM brought in. He completely ***** that up. 

He wasted so much cap it's pathetic..

Edited.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Edited.

Who the ***** cares about Murray? You refuse to answer because you can't. You just deflect or say "what about..."

Botterill has failed repeatedly to address the lack of top 6 talent. We've seen nothing to date to indicate that will change. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by LGR4GM

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Who the ***** cares about Murray? You refuse to answer because you can't. You just deflect or say "what about..."

Botterill has failed repeatedly to address the lack of top 6 talent. We've seen nothing to date to indicate that will change. 

He’s traded two top six players and acquired one.

[GASabresIUFAN]

19 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Who the ***** cares about Murray? You refuse to answer because you can't. You just deflect or say "what about..."

Botterill has failed repeatedly to address the lack of top 6 talent. We've seen nothing to date to indicate that will change. 

He brought in Skinner, signed MoJo and signed VO to his ELC and brought him up when he was ready.  He also drafted two centers with top 6 talent and traded for another former 1st rd pick with talent in Thompson.  He also acquired Sheary who was a top 6 forward for the Pens.  Just because every move doesn’t work out, it’s not like he hasn’t made moves in an attempt to bolster the top 6 and top 9.  As I’ve said 1000 times, his biggest error has been not replacing ROR and it’s a huge mistake in judgement that he might not recover from.  If he does it this summer, which I suspect he will, this team goes from decent to playoffs.

However, this current team, despite it’s unbalanced forwards, is better then anything TM ever fielded.  TM’s great D acquisitions of Gorges, Franson, Bogo, and Kulikov couldn’t even sniff this roster at their best.  TM’s top 6 signing of KO has been a disaster.   Apply the same standards to all our GM’s.

Edited February 27, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[PerreaultForever]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Who the ***** cares about Murray? You refuse to answer because you can't. You just deflect or say "what about..."

Botterill has failed repeatedly to address the lack of top 6 talent. We've seen nothing to date to indicate that will change. 

It's easy to ask for it as a fan, but it's harder to get. Not many top 6 players put Buffalo at the top of their wish list. Big name free agents would have to be overpaid  a lot and as for trades, most top 6 guys these days have no trade clauses and we aren't on the list of possible destinations. 

As is, Johanson is the 2C until Cozens or Mittlestadt takes it from him. 

I don't want to trade Risto. I think Kreuger's fixed him pretty good. Maybe Kahun will be so good we can move Reinhart for a 2C but I doubt it. For now, we're starting to see a different attitude on the team, so if that base structure/culture is finally fixed, we can build on that and eventually be an attractive location again. But we aren't there yet. 

[JohninMinn.]

8 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I'd trade Risto, Mitts, a 2nd and CJ Smith for Cirelli right now. 

No way.

[freester]

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Cozens and UPL are the 2 prospects that are clearly off limits.  
 

I would consider an offer to TB for both Palat (28, 2 years left at 5.3) and Johnson (29, 4 years left at 5). They just dumped 2 1st picks to get Coleman and Goodrow, my guess is they’ll accept a package of a D with term such as Miller plus picks and prospects for them.  Also Johnson’s deal and lesser production this season probably drives down his value.

lineup 

VO Jack Reinhart

Skinner Johnson Palat

MoJo Cozens Kahun

Girgensons Larsson KO

Lazar

Dahlin Jokiharju

Risto McCabe

Montour Pilut

Ullmark Johansson?

Why do we want another LW?

[freester]

28 minutes ago, dudacek said:

He’s traded two top six players and acquired one.

And the one he acquired is now grossly overpaid and frankly mediocre, while the 2 he got rid of continue to be excellent players at reasonable contracts. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

30 minutes ago, freester said:

Why do we want another LW?

Palat can and has played either wing, just like Kahun and MoJo.  This is all about figuring out who works well with whom. Why take Palat?.  We need more good forwards and maybe they we'll get a better deal if we take both and maybe they'll be more likely to want to come here if they can play with someone they have established chemistry with.

58 minutes ago, dudacek said:

He’s traded two top six players and acquired one.

Actually he traded away two, traded for one and signed (4/24/2018) and developed one.  2 out and 2 in.

[Huckleberry]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Who the ***** cares about Murray? You refuse to answer because you can't. You just deflect or say "what about..."

Botterill has failed repeatedly to address the lack of top 6 talent. We've seen nothing to date to indicate that will change. 

Boy this offseason will suprise you for sure ?

[Curt]

15 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Why? Buffalo is an up and coming team and they have an opportunity here to be 2nd line players again.  They know us well and know they could help us.

Reasons they may not want to be traded from TB to Buffalo?  There are plenty.

-Going from best team in league to one that hasn’t made playoffs in 10 years.

-Going from Florida weather to Buffalo weather.

-Their families are established in TB area.

-Going from Florida taxes to NY taxes.

These guys specifically negotiated NMC’s into their contracts, and almost definitely took less money to do so, for a reason.  I’m not saying that anyone definitely won’t waive their NMC from TB to Buffalo, but there are definitely reasons not to.

[LGR4GM]

9 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

He brought in Skinner, signed MoJo and signed VO to his ELC and brought him up when he was ready.  He also drafted two centers with top 6 talent and traded for another former 1st rd pick with talent in Thompson.  He also acquired Sheary who was a top 6 forward for the Pens.  Just because every move doesn’t work out, it’s not like he hasn’t made moves in an attempt to bolster the top 6 and top 9.  As I’ve said 1000 times, his biggest error has been not replacing ROR and it’s a huge mistake in judgement that he might not recover from.  If he does it this summer, which I suspect he will, this team goes from decent to playoffs.

However, this current team, despite it’s unbalanced forwards, is better then anything TM ever fielded.  TM’s great D acquisitions of Gorges, Franson, Bogo, and Kulikov couldn’t even sniff this roster at their best.  TM’s top 6 signing of KO has been a disaster.   Apply the same standards to all our GM’s.

Great so we agree that he has personally brought in 1 top 6 forward. Excellent. 

The list of former first round picks with "talent" that do nothing is long indeed. 

Olofsson was already here. I don't give him much credit for that. 

Every move doesn't work? I just want more than 1 move to work in regards to the forwards. Frolic, Simmonds, Sheary, Josefson, Sobotka, Berglund, Nolan, the list of forwards Botterill has failed with is extremely long. I don't care if he has made moves because the goal isn't to make moves. The goal is to get better and he has woefully underperformed at increasing the ranks of our top 9 and specifically our top 6. Our chances for metrics, our shot quality, even to an extent our goals are all mediocre as a direct result of Jason Botterill not identifying useful NHL forwards for 3 years. 

 

Still not talking about Tim Murray. Tim Murray is to defense what Botterill is to the offense. And I don't have to apply any standard to Murray because he isn't GM. Stop trying to change the subject and discuss the GM here now, who has done nothing to fix the holes he created. 

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Palat can and has played either wing, just like Kahun and MoJo.  This is all about figuring out who works well with whom. Why take Palat?.  We need more good forwards and maybe they we'll get a better deal if we take both and maybe they'll be more likely to want to come here if they can play with someone they have established chemistry with.

Actually he traded away two, traded for one and signed (4/24/2018) and developed one.  2 out and 2 in.

What a bad argument. Why? Because we need 4 top 6 players. He traded 2 and acquired 2 so we still need.... 2. 

3 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Boy this offseason will suprise you for sure ?

When he trades Risto, Mitts, and our 2020 first for Cirelli, then I will be surprised. 

[LGR4GM]

9 hours ago, freester said:

Why do we want another LW?

Bottom 6 left wing for sure. Some older guy who hits things or is supposedly good at the PK. We need more of those.