Non Sabres Deadline Trades/Rumors

[Randall Flagg]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

All proper development means is putting your young players in the right environment to maximize their growth.

Another reason I want Olofsson to work out is because it'd be the first time in how long? that we took a ridiculously raw 17/18 yo and turned him into a good NHLer. It would be a wonderful sign not just for what Olofsson would bring us, but that somebody somewhere knows what they're doing again.

[Curt]

25 minutes ago, tom webster said:

Here’s one of my favorite topics. Everyone talks about how Cirelli and Point were “developed” by Tampa. Point played 9 games in AHL. Cirelli 51 plus a playoff the year previous.

In Buffalo we call that rushed. You know the difference? Point and Cirelli were already good. The only players who don’t make it because they were rushed weren’t good enough to begin with.

True that they didn’t spend years in the AHL but Point spent 2 years in juniors, Cirelli 2 in juniors and 1 in AHL.  They were not brought into the league as teenagers.  Most importantly, when they were brought to the NHL, they had proper support of a quality NHL team around them.

Also, it’s probably true that Point and Cirelli are just flat out good and TB has drafted well.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Curt

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, tom webster said:

Here’s one of my favorite topics. Everyone talks about how Cirelli and Point were “developed” by Tampa. Point played 9 games in AHL. Cirelli 51 plus a playoff the year previous.

In Buffalo we call that rushed. You know the difference? Point and Cirelli were already good. The only players who don’t make it because they were rushed weren’t good enough to begin with.

Very interesting thought.  Nobody (even here in Buffalo) ? claims that Eichel nor Dahlin were rushed into the NHL.

The really top end guys need to be up in the NHL to continue their development.  No doubt about that.

And it is rare that guys that find themselves in the ECHL end up making their way to the NHL and even rarer that those guys become top end talent.

But for guys that aren't necessarily in that top echelon or barely good enough to have somebody pay them to play hockey, they can improve by playing in the AHL.

And within that tier of players, the guys playing the farm clubs for the TB's of the world have to be really good to break into that lineup.  So, in order for them to get to the NHL after only a handful of games, there is a REALLY good chance that they actually belong in the show.

But the guys playing for tank quality teams & their farm clubs, they don't need to be nearly as good to be better than somebody up on the parent club.  Would they be better off in the LT by playing in the NHL or the AHL?  Clearly it's a case by case basis &  we don't get to see how it would've worked out had the kid developed in the other locale.  But odds are, those guys would probably need more seasoning.  But what would the breakdown be of what percentage would be better off here or there?

Our hope is that the front office & coaching staff is competent enough to make the right decision on it.  We are fairly well in agreement that Thompson was a tire fire in the NHL and should've been in the AHL where he did do well in the regular season after being sent down.  But maybe he was in the NHL to try to teach him that that stupid toe drag doesn't work at NHL speed even though it crushes in the A?  And reinforcing that move for another season in the A would make it all the more difficult to break that habit?

And maybe keeping Nylander down in the A was the wrong choice & he would've thrived in the show (really doubt it).

IMHO, most players don't get messed up playing in the wrong league, but am certain it happens on occasion.  And the reason it seems bad teams do "ruin" their prospects is most often due to bad teams being bad at talent evaluation and those "ruined" players were never going to get it anyways.

Would really be interesting to even try to define how to even begin to evaluate that.  (Again, we don't get a do over with the guy in the alternative path.). Maybe look at players that were called up at a young age, failed (or at least were unsuccessful); left for another team and ended up in their farm system then got another chance a year or 2 later & then succeeded.  And those could be compared to ones that went that same route, but without ever getting the success at the NHL level.

You're right.  This could be an interesting topic for off-season discussion.  (At a minimum it's different than "will Ristolainen get traded" and "how does 2C get filled.")

?

[GASabresIUFAN]

@Taro T

When someone is ready for the NHL is a huge question.  @tom webster and I debated this topic before.  I may be speaking for Tom, but he believes that physical development is the real development that players make.  I somewhat disagree.  I think some players improve their skill level in the AHL and other leagues as they physically mature.  

I think there has been discussion on guys who physically mature early as having an advantage in Juniors, but never really improve after that.   

I think the Sabres have done a terrible job over the last decade or so deciding when the kids are ready.  I think they should have left Nylander stay in Juniors or go to Sweden because he clearly wasn't ready for the physical nature of the pro game and that in turn ruined his confidence.  I wish DR hadn't pushed Grigorenko in the NHL.  I think Jbot left Thompson in the NHL to long this season.  To Tom's point, he needs to grow into his body before he is truly NHL ready IMHO, because I think the skills are there.  As to Eichel or Samson or Dahlin, I think those guys were special and where ready when Buffalo put them in the lineup.  However, it has been really great watching Eichel and Sam mature physically and actually improve skill wise as well while in the NHL.  

[Cascade Youth]

Player development has off-ice components, training programs, leadership aspects - it’s a lot more than simply picking good players and letting them marinate in your AHL affiliate.

[Weave]

20 hours ago, dudacek said:

I

Was it @Weave who frequently sarcastically trotted out that eye-roller “we don’t need 30 goal scorers in Buffalo.”

 

I adopted it while we've been wandering through the desert, but I can't take credit for it.  That was a Deluca-ism.  He used it as a counter to the folks who said we didn't need Kovalchuck.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Weave

[SwampD]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

I adopted it while we've been wandering through the desert, but I can't take credit for it.  That was a Deluca-ism.  He used it as a counter to the folks who said we didn't need Kovalchuck.

There’s just no place for a 50 goal scorers on the Sabres.

I started that. He adopted it from me. (Wow, that seems like a long time ago.)

I’ve actually been thinking about that a lot lately. Not sure why we think we’re going to get better by constantly getting rid of our most talented players.

[triumph_communes]

9 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@Taro T

When someone is ready for the NHL is a huge question.  @tom webster and I debated this topic before.  I may be speaking for Tom, but he believes that physical development is the real development that players make.  I somewhat disagree.  I think some players improve their skill level in the AHL and other leagues as they physically mature.  

I think there has been discussion on guys who physically mature early as having an advantage in Juniors, but never really improve after that.   

I think the Sabres have done a terrible job over the last decade or so deciding when the kids are ready.  I think they should have left Nylander stay in Juniors or go to Sweden because he clearly wasn't ready for the physical nature of the pro game and that in turn ruined his confidence.  I wish DR hadn't pushed Grigorenko in the NHL.  I think Jbot left Thompson in the NHL to long this season.  To Tom's point, he needs to grow into his body before he is truly NHL ready IMHO, because I think the skills are there.  As to Eichel or Samson or Dahlin, I think those guys were special and where ready when Buffalo put them in the lineup.  However, it has been really great watching Eichel and Sam mature physically and actually improve skill wise as well while in the NHL.  

 

Only thing holding talents like Mittelstadt was conditioning and strength.  Smart players that know they’re good don’t need the confidence boost playing in lesser leagues.

 

Some guys who need more confidence boosting because their IQ/Hands aren’t there yet need to be in lesser leagues or they turn into a stone hands grinder like Girgensons who has forgotten how to play with the puck that isn’t a hot potato.

 

Things holding Nylander back was confidence and drive. 

[Taro T]

10 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@Taro T

When someone is ready for the NHL is a huge question.  @tom webster and I debated this topic before.  I may be speaking for Tom, but he believes that physical development is the real development that players make.  I somewhat disagree.  I think some players improve their skill level in the AHL and other leagues as they physically mature.  

I think there has been discussion on guys who physically mature early as having an advantage in Juniors, but never really improve after that.   

I think the Sabres have done a terrible job over the last decade or so deciding when the kids are ready.  I think they should have left Nylander stay in Juniors or go to Sweden because he clearly wasn't ready for the physical nature of the pro game and that in turn ruined his confidence.  I wish DR hadn't pushed Grigorenko in the NHL.  I think Jbot left Thompson in the NHL to long this season.  To Tom's point, he needs to grow into his body before he is truly NHL ready IMHO, because I think the skills are there.  As to Eichel or Samson or Dahlin, I think those guys were special and where ready when Buffalo put them in the lineup.  However, it has been really great watching Eichel and Sam mature physically and actually improve skill wise as well while in the NHL.  

Guys that have the growth spurt earlier than their peers definitely have an advantage over their peers but that advantage can definitely dissipate as the peers catch up.  But that doesn't really seem to be a factor in guys getting brought up to the show too early, IMHO.

Grigorenko is a great case study as it was his being too good for junior but ineligible for the Amerks & being rushed to the NHL due to a lack of NHL quality C's on the Sabres that led to the board wide lamenting and cursing the CHL/NHL agreement that CHLers don't move to the A until they're 20.

But did getting called up too early (and vaguely remember speculation as to whether Regier had planned to send Grigorenko back to junior but didn't realize the threshold that year was 5 games rather than 9, but don't recall ottomh whether there was anything to that rumor) & kept up too early "ruin" Grigs?  He slid quite far in the draft; maybe he was simply overrated heading into the draft & all he would ever be was a 3rd liner.  Personally, was ecstatic when he slid to the Sabres, as he seemed to be a lock for a 2C at worst, believing the mono had been the reason he slid.  But he never really looked like he was moving into any format of competence in that sort of role (though Girgensons did flash it).  That one (or those 2 really) would be very interesting in the "what if" game.

Would agree Thompson was left up about 2 months too long.  Would be very interested to sit with Botterill at a bar and find the real reason he was kept up after he clearly was failing in his role.  Wouldn't be surprised if it was somehow related to wanting Olofsson to get more time in Ra-cha-cha.

[rakish]

@Taro T Check out Grigo's 2018-2019 numbers some time

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, rakish said:

@Taro T Check out Grigo's 2018-2019 numbers some time

Day-um.  Guess he just needed to be back amongst comrades.  Talk about a late bloomer.

Wonder if he'll ever come back to this side of the pond.  (He'd look great as that 2C. ? )

[rakish]

I would have been banging the drum for Grigo 2, but he's signed for next year.

It's my theory that big guys have different developmental curves than little guys. And the Sabres were always trying to make Grigo heavier in the weight room, which I thought was the wrong approach.

Edited July 14, 2019 by rakish
can't speel

[Scottysabres]

I have a feeling Ristolainen is going to move in a larger package deal in the next 2 weeks for a 2C. And I think the deal will be larger than just Risto and a pick/prospect.

I don't know, but with McCabe and Ullmark primarily out there to be signed yet, I just see a larger deal taking shape before their arbitration days. Just a gut hunch.

[Taro T]

14 minutes ago, rakish said:

I would have been banging the drum for Grigo 2, but he's signed for next year.

It's my theory that big guys have different developmental curves than little guys. And the Sabres were always trying to make Grigo heavier in the weight room, which I thought was the wrong approach.

Interesting.

So do you see the bigger guys developing in a couple of stages, or is there some other difference in their development curve relative to the smaller ones?

[rakish]

It's not very scientific, I think there's some advantage to being big playing hockey, but the disadvantage is that you're still clumsy at a young age where small guys aren't fighting that. I think peak Tori Krug happens at a younger age than peak Chara.

[Weave]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

There’s just no place for a 50 goal scorers on the Sabres.

I started that. He adopted it from me. (Wow, that seems like a long time ago.)

I vaguely recollect that now.  Yeah, it was a long time ago.  Kudos for voicing a lasting sentiment.

[Thorner]

19 hours ago, dudacek said:

It’s my understanding that Patrik’s analytics with Scheifele have been much better than with the others.

But Im not saying the Sabres will elevate him, I am saying that if he can score a whack with Bryan Little, he can score a whack with Sam Reinhart and that there is a fit for him here.

i also think that the biggest difference between Laine last year and LAine the rookie is that Wheeler and Byfuglien are bullies who started to freeze him out last year - which was almost certainly brought on by Laine’s air of entitlement.

I will point to Jeff Skinner last year and Jeff Skinner the year before as an example of how feeling wanted can elevate a player and how adjusting the dressing room mix helped the Canes improve. It’s not about pointing fingers, it’s about putting people in positions where they can succeed.

Who's playing centre? I don't fancy Reinhart handling the defensive centre responsibilities aided by a useless defensive zone Laine. And Reinhart moving to C at all at this point seems unlikely. 

The second bolded is speculation and it's far more likely that Laine was what he was, cause that's truly what he is on the ice, than because he was "bullied" by those two. Laine has always played that way, his metrics were bad in year 1, 2, and 3. Perhaps as a rookie he was keyed on less on the PP. 

One only needs to watch him play. He can't/doesn't skate. If he didn't have an elite shot, he's below replacement. And his goals all come on the PP anyways.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Thorny

[pi2000]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

.... Thompson was left up about 2 months too long.  Would be very interested to sit with Botterill at a bar and find the real reason he was kept up after he clearly was failing in his role.  Wouldn't be surprised if it was somehow related to wanting Olofsson to get more time in Ra-cha-cha.

Thomspon and Mittlestadt are JBOTs guys.    

It would look bad for JBOT if he sent Thomspon down earlier in the season.

My theory with Mittlestadt is that he was the teacher's (Housley) pet... Both Minnesota boys, no way was Housley going to push for him to be sent down... they take care of their own.   I could see this rubbing guys like Berglund the wrong way when Casey continues to see regular 2nd line minutes while struggling.    Will be interesting to see where Mittlestadt fits in Krueger's world.   

That said, Casey better take some steps this summer.  He's always come off as kind of aloof when asked about his fitness and training habits... He gives the impression that his hands are the key to his performance, not fitness or strength, so it's a concern... that and his tobacco fueled fortnite sessions.    It's time to grow up Casey. 

[Thorner]

^ Maybe he's our Kessel. 

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

I vaguely recollect that now.  Yeah, it was a long time ago.  Kudos for voicing a lasting sentiment.

The saddest part about that was the reason. People said they didn't want to mortgage our future. Since then, the Devils went to the finals and we had no future.

[kas23]

1 hour ago, pi2000 said:

Thomspon and Mittlestadt are JBOTs guys.    

It would look bad for JBOT if he sent Thomspon down earlier in the season.

My theory with Mittlestadt is that he was the teacher's (Housley) pet... Both Minnesota boys, no way was Housley going to push for him to be sent down... they take care of their own.   I could see this rubbing guys like Berglund the wrong way when Casey continues to see regular 2nd line minutes while struggling.    Will be interesting to see where Mittlestadt fits in Krueger's world.   

That said, Casey better take some steps this summer.  He's always come off as kind of aloof when asked about his fitness and training habits... He gives the impression that his hands are the key to his performance, not fitness or strength, so it's a concern... that and his tobacco fueled fortnite sessions.    It's time to grow up Casey. 

I think there’s a lot to be said for “growing up”. I think the mental game is something a lot of very young players struggle with. They come from teams where they have been the best player on the team, and now in the NHL, they are amongst the worst. Some, like Eichel and Dahlin, can lean on their talent, but most cannot. A lot may say “well, I’m just a rookie”.  They need to realize that the NHL is the end of the line. There’s no more drafts or better teams to make. They need to grow up and realize this is their profession and they shouldn’t be doing anything besides working to be their best. 

[thewookie1]

RNH & Kassian

for

Risto & Sheary (450k retained)

 

Cap Neutral

Any thoughts?

 

Skinner - Eichel - Reinhart

Olafsson - RNH - Vesey

Johansson - Mitts - Okposo

Larsson - ERod - Kassian

 

Dahlin - Montour

McCabe - Jokiharu

Pilut - Miller

 

Extras: Wilson, Girgs, Hunwick

Bought out Scandella, buried Sobotka

[Chevyvanmiller]

42 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

RNH & Kassian

for

Risto & Sheary (450k retained)

 

Cap Neutral

Any thoughts?

 

Skinner - Eichel - Reinhart

Olafsson - RNH - Vesey

Johansson - Mitts - Okposo

Larsson - ERod - Kassian

 

Dahlin - Montour

McCabe - Jokiharu

Pilut - Miller

 

Extras: Wilson, Girgs, Hunwick

Bought out Scandella, buried Sobotka

I’d do that deal in a heartbeat.

[Scottysabres]

Nothing in the rumor mill today? ?

[ExWNYer]

13 hours ago, Chevyvanmiller said:

I’d do that deal in a heartbeat.

Welcome to the board, Chevy. I see that you finally crossed over from TBD. I lurked here for years before posting. I'm sure people wish I'd kept it that way (not that I post much anyway). ??