Non Sabres Deadline Trades/Rumors

[Zamboni]

3 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

There is one thing I don't get about offer sheets and the romance about them.  Everyone is expecting them to be used to target the Tier 1 guys.

Like Marner, Aho hell even Vanek in the past,   I think they should be used more to target the Tier below them and hope they get to the Tier 1 level.

Everyone is not expecting that. I personally never expect them to be used. In the current climate, offersheets are EA Sports/fantasy hockey land. It’s just so rare. As I’m sure you know.

[Tondas]

The NHL GM community is too tight to make the offer sheet plan effective.  For example, you think JBOT is going to offer sheet Jim Rutherford (his mentor for many years) to try to put him is salary cap jail and get one of his best players.  No way.  Their alliances are closer to their peers than to their fans.  There ore only 32 GM jobs out there and they are loathe to tick off a potential future employer should they get the ax from their current team.  If I'm an owner, in my interview with a potential GM, I'm asking for his particular strategy for employing the offer sheet process.  The union and MANAGEMENT negotiated the offer sheet process.  A majority of the teams agreed to the CBA and it passed.  It's a failure of the GM's fiduciary duty not to use the offer sheet process to its fullest extent to build his team and weaken his competition. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

4 hours ago, Tondas said:

The NHL GM community is too tight to make the offer sheet plan effective.  For example, you think JBOT is going to offer sheet Jim Rutherford (his mentor for many years) to try to put him is salary cap jail and get one of his best players.  No way.  Their alliances are closer to their peers than to their fans.  There ore only 32 GM jobs out there and they are loathe to tick off a potential future employer should they get the ax from their current team.  If I'm an owner, in my interview with a potential GM, I'm asking for his particular strategy for employing the offer sheet process.  The union and MANAGEMENT negotiated the offer sheet process.  A majority of the teams agreed to the CBA and it passed.  It's a failure of the GM's fiduciary duty not to use the offer sheet process to its fullest extent to build his team and weaken his competition. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the GM's used it to keep salaries down a bit.

Montreal's offer for Aho is an example .....one GM helps the other out by setting a "low-ball" offer sheet for the other to match. The only problem here is getting the right offer to convince the player/agent to sign the offer. I don't think anyone expected an offer to Aho to be that low.

[Curt]

7 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the GM's used it to keep salaries down a bit.

Montreal's offer for Aho is an example .....one GM helps the other out by setting a "low-ball" offer sheet for the other to match. The only problem here is getting the right offer to convince the player/agent to sign the offer. I don't think anyone expected an offer to Aho to be that low.

You think players will accept less salary on an offer sheet contract than they would from their current team?

It seems that Aho and his agent played MTL a bit actually.  Aho got his 5 yrs, which he wanted, CAR wanted loger term.  Aho got $21M in the first 12 months of the deal, and $21M over the next 4, which is significantly more valuable than if the money was evenly spread out over 5 yrs.  That $21M can be invested and earn 5-10% profit over the following 4 years.

And Aho didn’t have to spend the entire summer haggling with management and worrying about his contract situation.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Curt

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 minute ago, Curt said:

You think players will accept less salary on an offer sheet contract than they would from their current team?

It seems that Aho and his agent played MTL a bit actually.  Aho got his 5 yrs, which he wanted, CAR wanted loger term.  Aho got $21M in the first 12 months of the deal, and $21M over the next 4, which is significantly more valuable than if the money was evenly spread out over 5 yrs.

I know what happened in that situation.....but let's say CAR GM calls MON GM and says Aho is asking way too much, can you offer sheet him $1.5M less and get him to sign? 

[Weave]

2 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

I know what happened in that situation.....but let's say CAR GM calls MON GM and says Aho is asking way too much, can you offer sheet him $1.5M less and get him to sign? 

So, you're suggesting the GM's are engaging in collusion?  That's a pretty serious accusation.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

Just now, Weave said:

So, you're suggesting the GM's are engaging in collusion?  That's a pretty serious accusation.

Well aren't the agents doing the same in some regards?

[Weave]

1 minute ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Well aren't the agents doing the same in some regards?

I don't know.  And wouldn't throw out a suggestion of an illegal actviity to explain something that I have no background information to support.

[Hoss]

3 minutes ago, Weave said:

So, you're suggesting the GM's are engaging in collusion?  That's a pretty serious accusation.

Not only that but the logic doesn’t really make sense there. He’s not going to sign an offer sheet for $1.5M less than he wants. You sign an offer sheet because you get what you want (or close to it).

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

I don't know.  And wouldn't throw out a suggestion of an illegal actviity to explain something that I have no background information to support.

The way I read the situation was that agent had players on both teams (which alot do) and he played the two in the offer sheet. I don't know that it was plain black and white, but one could make the assumption. If I get time I'll look for the article I saw that made me assume that. 

But we all know that there are behind the scene things go on that probably can't be proven as collusion. Just the idea of not pi**ing off another GM with an offer sheet in itself is an example.

[Curt]

11 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

I know what happened in that situation.....but let's say CAR GM calls MON GM and says Aho is asking way too much, can you offer sheet him $1.5M less and get him to sign? 

Even if Waddel did make a call like this.  

Why would MTL go along with it?  It’s not going to benefit them.  Getting Aho on their team is what would benefit them.

Why would Aho sign for less?  If he was going to sign for what CAR wants, he would have signed with them earlier.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

20 minutes ago, Curt said:

Even if Waddel did make a call like this.  

Why would MTL go along with it?  It’s not going to benefit them.  Getting Aho on their team is what would benefit them.

Why would Aho sign for less?  If he was going to sign for what CAR wants, he would have signed with them earlier.

They upped the actual price to CAR for Aho but at a very reasonable rate. If MON wanted Aho bad enough they would have offered much more and some people still would've considered it a steal for the Habs.

[Andrew Amerk]

10 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Sure a "hockey" trade could work, and Risto is the most likely to get traded.  However, is there any indication that RNH is even on the trading block?

I remember there being a lot of RNH for Risto trade chatter going on back in March, but nothing since. 

Also, gotta remember JBott seems to make moves that are always quietly kept out of the media. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

33 minutes ago, Weave said:

I don't know.  And wouldn't throw out a suggestion of an illegal actviity to explain something that I have no background information to support.

 

https://fansided.com/2019/07/01/montreal-canadiens-offer-sheet-sebastian-aho/

 

This is not the article I was looking for but as far as collusion(?)...read the part where it says.... "general managers have tacitly agreed not to use offer sheets as weapons."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Curt]

3 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

They upped the actual price to CAR for Aho but at a very reasonable rate. If MON wanted Aho bad enough they would have offered much more and some people still would've considered it a steal for the Habs.

If CAR wanted Aho at the exact contract offered by MTL, why wouldn’t they just offer it to Aho themselves?  Why would Aho sign it with MTL but not with CAR?  It just doesn’t make any sense.

[Scottysabres]

I would love Botterill to hook up with Anaheim again. They are going to be entering full rebuild mode here for the next couple of seasons.

Rickard Rakell for 2c, That would be a deal I'd like to see.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

25 minutes ago, Curt said:

If CAR wanted Aho at the exact contract offered by MTL, why wouldn’t they just offer it to Aho themselves?  Why would Aho sign it with MTL but not with CAR?  It just doesn’t make any sense.

They didn't want Aho at the same exact contract and were known to have offered $7.5M. They may have been standing hard on that line with negotiations at a stand still. They still may have been willing to pay more to not lose a great player(how much more?). It's been said they were surprised how low the offer sheet was and would match it.

And here's a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" reason for MON to make the offer low...article from SBNation

How is any of this relevant to Sebastian Aho? Well, as it turns out Aho, Lehkonen, and Armia all have the same Finnish player agent: Mika Rautakallio. Aho also has Gerry Johannson as his North American agent, who happens to be the agent for Carey Price, Brendan Gallagher, and Brett Kulak. Although Johannson was the public face of the Aho offer-sheet negotiations, it’s certain that Rautakallio was in the mix as well. We are dealing with some established relationships with very particular dynamics.

If we step back in time to look at Aho’s free agency, it’s known that the Carolina Hurricanes were low-balling Aho with their initial contract offers, and negotiations could have proven long and drawn out. What the Canadiens offer sheet managed to do is get Rautakallio’s client paid a good salary, with a big upfront bonus ahead of a potential lockout. But it also wasn’t so absurd as to price out Carolina (though the contract match is not yet official). Bergevin essentially helped close out negotiations quickly.

Is this to say there was a clandestine deal between the parties? Probably not, but discussions were had and things moved forward. Now Bergevin can get Rautakallio to focus on Armia and Lehkonen. If they can be signed to reasonable deals, perhaps with a similar approach to signing bonuses, they are very good bottom-six players.

Bergevin wants to get a favourable deal for each one, and doing the agent a favour probably helps smooth over negotiations and present an “I scratch your back, you scratch mine” situation where they can avoid the unnecessary unpleasantness of a looming arbitration. We will know in a few days whether this tactic worked when the arbitration filing deadline comes and goes, and whether Armia and Lehkonen are on that list or not.

 

[Curt]

1 hour ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

They didn't want Aho at the same exact contract and were known to have offered $7.5M. They may have been standing hard on that line with negotiations at a stand still. They still may have been willing to pay more to not lose a great player(how much more?). It's been said they were surprised how low the offer sheet was and would match it.

And here's a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" reason for MON to make the offer low...article from SBNation

How is any of this relevant to Sebastian Aho? Well, as it turns out Aho, Lehkonen, and Armia all have the same Finnish player agent: Mika Rautakallio. Aho also has Gerry Johannson as his North American agent, who happens to be the agent for Carey Price, Brendan Gallagher, and Brett Kulak. Although Johannson was the public face of the Aho offer-sheet negotiations, it’s certain that Rautakallio was in the mix as well. We are dealing with some established relationships with very particular dynamics.

If we step back in time to look at Aho’s free agency, it’s known that the Carolina Hurricanes were low-balling Aho with their initial contract offers, and negotiations could have proven long and drawn out. What the Canadiens offer sheet managed to do is get Rautakallio’s client paid a good salary, with a big upfront bonus ahead of a potential lockout. But it also wasn’t so absurd as to price out Carolina (though the contract match is not yet official). Bergevin essentially helped close out negotiations quickly.

Is this to say there was a clandestine deal between the parties? Probably not, but discussions were had and things moved forward. Now Bergevin can get Rautakallio to focus on Armia and Lehkonen. If they can be signed to reasonable deals, perhaps with a similar approach to signing bonuses, they are very good bottom-six players.

Bergevin wants to get a favourable deal for each one, and doing the agent a favour probably helps smooth over negotiations and present an “I scratch your back, you scratch mine” situation where they can avoid the unnecessary unpleasantness of a looming arbitration. We will know in a few days whether this tactic worked when the arbitration filing deadline comes and goes, and whether Armia and Lehkonen are on that list or not.

This article lays out a decent case for why the offer sheet was beneficial to MTL, Aho, and his agents.  

It does not lay out a case for why CAR would call MTL and request that they offer sheet Aho for a certain amount, as opposed to just offering Aho that contract themselves.  That’s what we were discussing.  You are changing the conversation.

3 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the GM's used it to keep salaries down a bit.

Montreal's offer for Aho is an example .....one GM helps the other out by setting a "low-ball" offer sheet for the other to match. The only problem here is getting the right offer to convince the player/agent to sign the offer. I don't think anyone expected an offer to Aho to be that low.

 

2 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

I know what happened in that situation.....but let's say CAR GM calls MON GM and says Aho is asking way too much, can you offer sheet him $1.5M less and get him to sign? 

These are the things that I am talking about.  One GM asking another GM to offer sheet his player.  I can’t think of any reason one would do this and you haven’t provided any either.

[Weave]

2 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

 "general managers have tacitly agreed not to use offer sheets as weapons."

That isn’t collusion either.  It’s an agreement to not screw each other.

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

That isn’t collusion either.  It’s an agreement to not screw each other.

Like marriage 

[TrueBlueGED]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

That isn’t collusion either.  It’s an agreement to not screw each other.

It's within spitting distance. Maybe not collision in intent, but I'd argue it contributes to collusion in effect. 

[erickompositör72]

No collusion!

[Tondas]

6 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the GM's used it to keep salaries down a bit.

Montreal's offer for Aho is an example .....one GM helps the other out by setting a "low-ball" offer sheet for the other to match. The only problem here is getting the right offer to convince the player/agent to sign the offer. I don't think anyone expected an offer to Aho to be that low.

Now that sounds like it would violate the FTC's Price Fixing statutes:

Price fixing is an agreement (written, verbal, or inferred from conduct) among competitors that raises, lowers, or stabilizes prices or competitive terms. Generally, the antitrust laws require that each company establish prices and other terms on its own, without agreeing with a competitor.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

This article lays out a decent case for why the offer sheet was beneficial to MTL, Aho, and his agents.  

It does not lay out a case for why CAR would call MTL and request that they offer sheet Aho for a certain amount, as opposed to just offering Aho that contract themselves.  That’s what we were discussing.  You are changing the conversation.

 

These are the things that I am talking about.  One GM asking another GM to offer sheet his player.  I can’t think of any reason one would do this and you haven’t provided any either.

I never said it happens, what i said was "i wouldn't be surprised" if it did. Seems like the agents are working both sides so why shouldn't the GM's work together to keep salaries down. Not any written agreement or anything, but just similar to the "offer sheets are tabu" type thing.

 

[kas23]

6 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

 

https://fansided.com/2019/07/01/montreal-canadiens-offer-sheet-sebastian-aho/

 

This is not the article I was looking for but as far as collusion(?)...read the part where it says.... "general managers have tacitly agreed not to use offer sheets as weapons."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And that’s where the problem lies. Offer sheets should absolutely be used as a weapon to weaken conference opponents. They are used in this manner in the NFL regularly. It’s you beat your divisional foes, or you are out on the street. I know the word “collusion” was used and maybe this is too strong of an accusation. But I can see circumstances where neglecting to offer sheet players keeps spending down. Belichick has tried to sign RFA on the Bills numerous times. You do whatever it takes to win. Making a rival weaker makes your team stronger. Jbot is too busy rubbing elbows with his opponents to see he’ll be done next year if they don’t win.