Non Sabres Deadline Trades/Rumors

[sabills]

I think Risto is JP Losman. Has all the look and feel of a starter and should be very good if never great, but can't seem to make it work. Whats the culprit? Something between the ears? Organizational ineptitude? Noone will ever be sure, and people will continue to argue years later about whether he was good or not. Will eventually win a championship after he leaves the N(F/H)L with the (Las Vegas/ Yaroslavl) Locamotive.

Edited June 19, 2019 by sabills

[WildCard]

Can we confirm LeBrun actually said any of this?

 

[darksabre]

17 minutes ago, sabills said:

I think Risto is JP Losman. Has all the look and feel of a starter and should be very good if never great, but can't seem to make it work. Whats the culprit? Something between the ears? Organizational ineptitude? Noone will ever be sure, and people will continue to argue years later about whether he was good or not. Will eventually win a championship after he leaves the N(F/H)L with the (Las Vegas/ Yaroslavl) Locamotive.

The comparison with Phaneuf is something I keep coming back to and I think it works, only I'd argue that Phaneuf was actually better than Risto is.

If Risto is Phaneuf then I'm happy to move on from him.

[Cityo'Rasmii]

Nobody compares to The Princess

[Derrico]

4 minutes ago, darksabre said:

The comparison with Phaneuf is something I keep coming back to and I think it works, only I'd argue that Phaneuf was actually better than Risto is.

If Risto is Phaneuf then I'm happy to move on from him.

I Donna man.  Obviously Pheneuf is shot now but I would say hes comparable to phenuf at 24.  Imagine what he would have done if the leafs gave him any support.  They used him like we use Risto.  Then he gets traded to Ottawa and I thought he was a big part of that team that nearly went to the cup.  He’s a similar guy in that he’s not a number one or probably two.  Use him to his situational strengths as a second pairing?  I bet he will thrive.  Another nice bonus?  We’re paying him exactly like a second pairing guy for three more years!

[dudacek]

First I heard of the Jackets being interested in Risto.

Doesn't make a ton of sense to me with them losing Duchene and Panarin and keeping Jones and Werenski.

[Derrico]

Having said all that if a deal comes for a very good second line centre and there’s a clear plan in place to add another rhd then fine.  But nobody should be surprised when he goes to Tampa, plays 19 min a night including power play time and absolutely thrives.  Why can’t we do that here?  The cost to acquire another second pairing rhd will not be cheap and I’m not ready for Nelson to get those minutes.

[Drunkard]

34 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Don’t think much of how Montour upgrades the D?

That's still to be determined to me at this point. I like the move to acquire Montour but as soon as we got him it felt like half the board saw him as Ristolainen's replacement instead of an addition to the existing defense. If Botterill has the same mindset then it's not really an upgrade to me. Montour is an offensive minded puck mover, but to me the greatest benefit to adding him will be if it means we can slide Ristolainen down to the second pair. If we trade Ristolainen, that kind of goes out the window so we'll have to wait and see if the defense is actually improved from that perspective. 

I hope we keep Ristolainen and use pick 31 to get a 2nd line center. If that happens it definitely improves Botterill's overall trading "grade" from my perspective, but the O'Reilly trade was such a turd that he's still in the red.

[WildCard]

8 minutes ago, Derrico said:

I Donna man.  Obviously Pheneuf is shot now but I would say hes comparable to phenuf at 24.  Imagine what he would have done if the leafs gave him any support.  They used him like we use Risto.  Then he gets traded to Ottawa and I thought he was a big part of that team that nearly went to the cup.  He’s a similar guy in that he’s not a number one or probably two.  Use him to his situational strengths as a second pairing?  I bet he will thrive.  Another nice bonus?  We’re paying him exactly like a second pairing guy for three more years!

Phaneuf's stats blow Risto's out of the water in an era where scoring was down. If anything Risto is a lesser Phaneuf 

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

First I heard of the Jackets being interested in Risto.

Doesn't make a ton of sense to me with them losing Duchene and Panarin and keeping Jones and Werenski.

Going the Nashville way maybe? 

[darksabre]

6 minutes ago, Derrico said:

I Donna man.  Obviously Pheneuf is shot now but I would say hes comparable to phenuf at 24.  Imagine what he would have done if the leafs gave him any support.  They used him like we use Risto.  Then he gets traded to Ottawa and I thought he was a big part of that team that nearly went to the cup.  He’s a similar guy in that he’s not a number one or probably two.  Use him to his situational strengths as a second pairing?  I bet he will thrive.  Another nice bonus?  We’re paying him exactly like a second pairing guy for three more years!

The problem with this is that when Phaneuf saw his ice time decrease he didn't really get any better (argue chicken and egg if you want, but he was only 28), and there are signs in the stats that Risto might suffer from the same affliction.

This is my big concern about the whole "push Risto to the second pair and he'll be better" argument: it's distinctly possible that it doesn't actually work.

[darksabre]

If Risto is a worse Phaneuf, then it's a distinct possibility that this is also the best he's ever going to be.

[inkman]

4 minutes ago, darksabre said:

If Risto is a worse Phaneuf, then it's a distinct possibility that this is also the best he's ever going to be.

Based on everything I've gathered over the years, he's either incapable or unwilling to accept coaching. He's a himbo or a prima Donna. Take your pick but it feels right. 

I'm certain he's received good coaching in some form since his career started yet he looks no better today than he did his first shift. 

[Drunkard]

6 minutes ago, darksabre said:

The problem with this is that when Phaneuf saw his ice time decrease he didn't really get any better (argue chicken and egg if you want, but he was only 28), and there are signs in the stats that Risto might suffer from the same affliction.

This is my big concern about the whole "push Risto to the second pair and he'll be better" argument: it's distinctly possible that it doesn't actually work.

There's only one way to find out and that's to actually try it. If he doesn't improve he still has value to the Sabres because he is in his prime and on a good contract so there's no need to get rid of him.

Even if reducing his minutes and overall role doesn't improve him whatsoever, he's still good enough to have on the roster. Even the people who hate him can't think he's worse than Bogosian, Scandella, Nelson, Hunwick, or Borgen, right?

[darksabre]

3 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

There's only one way to find out and that's to actually try it. If he doesn't improve he still has value to the Sabres because he is in his prime and on a good contract so there's no need to get rid of him.

Even if reducing his minutes and overall role doesn't improve him whatsoever, he's still good enough to have on the roster. Even the people who hate him can't think he's worse than Bogosian, Scandella, Nelson, Hunwick, or Borgen, right?

It's distinctly possible that, as a defenseman, he actually is.

It all comes down to how you want to evaluate him, and that's sort of a "choose your own adventure".

Edited June 19, 2019 by darksabre

[Derrico]

14 minutes ago, darksabre said:

The problem with this is that when Phaneuf saw his ice time decrease he didn't really get any better (argue chicken and egg if you want, but he was only 28), and there are signs in the stats that Risto might suffer from the same affliction.

This is my big concern about the whole "push Risto to the second pair and he'll be better" argument: it's distinctly possible that it doesn't actually work.

These are all fair points and again, if the deal brings significant return then sure.  Otherwise, in an era were Karlsson is signing for $11.5 mil there is something to be said for paying Risto $5.4.  Cap management is still very important and this is a very fair deal.  Risto isn't the savior but if we're paying him and playing him further down the lineup I think about him much differently.

1 minute ago, darksabre said:

It's distinctly possible that, as a defenseman, he actually is.

Oh come on.  I think we're going too far the other way on Risto now.....

[Drunkard]

Just now, darksabre said:

It's distinctly possible that, as a defenseman, he actually is.

That's where our paths diverge then. I think at his absolute worst he's our 4th best overall defenseman after Dahlin, Montour, and McCabe, but I'd argue that Montour and McCabe still haven't proven to be more valuable than him at this point.

[darksabre]

Just now, Derrico said:

These are all fair points and again, if the deal brings significant return then sure.  Otherwise, in an era were Karlsson is signing for $11.5 mil there is something to be said for paying Risto $5.4.  Cap management is still very important and this is a very fair deal.  Risto isn't the savior but if we're paying him and playing him further down the lineup I think about him much differently.

It all comes down to evaluation. There are, from where I sit, convincing arguments to be made that he is helping the team, and convincing arguments to be made that he's actually doing more harm than good.

I pray that our GM and scouts are more confident than I am.

[Derrico]

Can we all just acknowledge Risto was the 26th highest scoring Dman in the league last year?  On a terrible team that had trouble scoring.  He is a defensive liability but he is a tough sob that I would love to see if we ever make the playoffs and he puts up points.  Shelter his D responsibility and let's see what he looks like.

[dudacek]

I don’t expect Risto to improve significantly, but I also don’t think he is as bad as he is made out to be.

The second-half collapse piled on to years of losing broke him and that is the predominant image many people have of him right now.

I don’t think many remember the way he played when the Sabres were going (4/19/23/+2 in 32 games with some clutch plays).

I think he will always be up and down, but I also think we could see stretches like that more often in the right situation.

[Derrico]

All of this on a more than fair deal that has 3 more years left.  It's shocking to me we all just seem ok that a trade will go down and we're moving on from him.  This better not be the ROR return if he does get dealt. 

[darksabre]

3 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Can we all just acknowledge Risto was the 26th highest scoring Dman in the league last year?  On a terrible team that had trouble scoring.  He is a defensive liability but he is a tough sob that I would love to see if we ever make the playoffs and he puts up points.  Shelter his D responsibility and let's see what he looks like.

We should also acknowledge that it's possible, like it is for forwards, that his production may also be a result of simply logging a ton of ice time.

Is it fair to assume similar production from him with less ice time? Probably not. He'll likely contribute less with less ice time.

And if he's still a mess defensively, what then?

I'd hate to be Botterill. I don't really know what I would do with Risto.

[WildCard]

“I think when Ralph Krueger came in, I think it slowed down the process," Kypreos said. "Now that’s not to say that eventually Buffalo will get an offer they can’t refuse. There’s also intrigue that Ristolainen is one of these young, up and coming stars… maybe Ralph Krueger wants to see what he has first before moving forward.”

Whether the Sabres are looking to move Ristolainen or another blueliner, as Dhaliwal suggested for Vancouver, Kypreos made it evident that the Sabres want to move a defenseman in a trade. However, Kypreos did not know whether Ristolainen would be moved by September or October.

However, Kypreos did go as far to say Ristolainen, the six-year veteran, still has potential; citing him as a gifted defenseman that are usually hard to come by. 

"He's got the potential," Kypreos said. "There's everything there that you'd want in a top-two guy. There's also that mean streak that unfortunately isn't as consistent a people would like. He is one of those special defenseman that don't come around very often."

[Derrico]

Good post, haven’t heard that segment yet.  Thanks for the link. 

[darksabre]

That Kypreos stuff reads like something we would fawn over as fans if Risto was a piece we received in a trade, only to discover that we actually got Bogo.

[WildCard]

To me it sounds like Risto is going to be moved only if we get exactly what we want back, and if not Bogosian/McCabe are gone instead

So really unless we're packaging picks/prospects, our top 6 is kinda screwed