Non Sabres Deadline Trades/Rumors

[TrueBlueGED]

2 minutes ago, inkman said:

Jeff Skinner. Except fans are shortsighted d-bags who only push agendas that match their narrative. 

I really don't understand why people want to keep rehashing ***** that's is in the past. It happened. Deal with it. On your own. Privately. Stop bitching like PA standing at the restaurant door at 4:25 yammering about the early bird special. 

The Sabres are certainly testing our patience with the unmitigated disaster they've iced since 2012. 

Because it still has an impact in the present. This isn't like rehashing the co-captains who would have been long gone anyway. We're still facing a gaping hole at center because of the trade, and we're going to have to use assets to fill it we could have used to improve elsewhere. 

[TrueBlueGED]

4 minutes ago, LTS said:

Well, it was hashed about but it's because at least one of the kids didn't really like him?  See below though.

You think they are minor.  But it only matters what the people who are involved think.  That said, I read LeBrun's article today about the Ryan O'Reilly story and there were a few points I found interesting.

His Mother

His Father

His Father Again

From LeBrun

What I read into those comments are.

He felt he was the problem and he was so "mentally tough" that he lost his love of the game.  In Colorado, when they were losing and in Buffalo, he takes it personally.  Yes, most players hate losing.  Most don't talk about how they lose their love of the game however.  In fact, I've never heard a player say that before.  As we said, he takes on the personality of the team.  He's not the guy to pull the team out of losing.

But the real key for me was LeBrun's commentary.  For a player everyone knew was available.  For a player people all over are roasting the Sabres for trading away. Why was the interest so low in him?  Do you not want to smack every other GM and say "Why didn't you go get ROR?"  He was available for nothing.

Despite all the this, the that, and the other things that are out there. I can't get over that a player so amazing. A player that makes such a difference. A player, that doesn't have his on-ice production questioned.  Why would that player not be in demand by every franchise out there?

At this point, I'm with Liger.  The ROR discussion can continue, but I'm done with it.

 

Not even when the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor!

That's literally the opposite of what the article said. It said that he felt the team thought he was the problem, not that he himself thought it. And I still can't believe you're putting more weight into what he said than what he did. He said he lost his love of the game, but his game never showed it. So who cares? And maybe it shouldn't even be taken so literally? Mayhaps it was just how he expressed his disdain for another losing season? 

Edited June 13, 2019 by TrueBlueGED

[LTS]

1 minute ago, TrueBlueGED said:

That's literally the opposite of what the article said. It said that he felt the team thought he was the problem, not that he himself thought it. 

See my nearly immediate edit.  I had omitted that.  And it doesn't change the substance of what I posted.  All of that and you went for the one thing I corrected before you even got a chance to post?  Excellent.

[TrueBlueGED]

1 minute ago, LTS said:

See my nearly immediate edit.  I had omitted that.  And it doesn't change the substance of what I posted.  All of that and you went for the one thing I corrected before you even got a chance to post?  Excellent.

And I expanded my criticism of your position. You care more about what he said than how he played. I think that's a really bad way to judge athletes. 

[LTS]

Just now, TrueBlueGED said:

And I expanded my criticism of your position. You care more about what he said than how he played. I think that's a really bad way to judge athletes. 

You think it's a bad way to judge athletes.  That's fine.

Why did so few other GM's jump on the acquire Ryan O'Reilly train?  He had very low interest from the league.  Is it because they only cared about his on-ice capabilities?

Have we ever heard GMs, teammates, etc. talk about how another player is in the locker room, or their off-field/off-ice issues and how it can be disruptive to the team?

What I care about, is what his parents have said of their own child that is completely contradictory of what their own child did.  He's so mentally tough that he's the ONLY athlete I can recall ever saying that he lost his love of the game because of losing.  Is there another one?  Please, I'd love to find another one.

I care about that, and the fact that when a really good hockey player could be had for peanuts, the number of GMs that came calling were next to none.  Why? If ROR is so freakin' awesome why is it so few?  If he's the kind of player that can LEAD A TEAM TO GREATNESS because he's now the Stanley Cup MVP, why wouldn't you trade to get that player?

It doesn't make sense, UNLESS, there is a reason that is not rooted in the easily observed on-ice performance of one Ryan O'Reilly that kept GMs from going after him.

 

[Curt]

Is there a 2019-20 trade rumor or speculation involving O’Reilly and Buffalo?!  No?  

It was a lopsided trade and he is a very good player, but my goodness am I sick of seeing his name.  I’ve been done with discussing him for months!

[Thorner]

19 minutes ago, LTS said:

You think it's a bad way to judge athletes.  That's fine.

Why did so few other GM's jump on the acquire Ryan O'Reilly train?  He had very low interest from the league.  Is it because they only cared about his on-ice capabilities?

Have we ever heard GMs, teammates, etc. talk about how another player is in the locker room, or their off-field/off-ice issues and how it can be disruptive to the team?

What I care about, is what his parents have said of their own child that is completely contradictory of what their own child did.  He's so mentally tough that he's the ONLY athlete I can recall ever saying that he lost his love of the game because of losing.  Is there another one?  Please, I'd love to find another one.

I care about that, and the fact that when a really good hockey player could be had for peanuts, the number of GMs that came calling were next to none.  Why? If ROR is so freakin' awesome why is it so few?  If he's the kind of player that can LEAD A TEAM TO GREATNESS because he's now the Stanley Cup MVP, why wouldn't you trade to get that player?

It doesn't make sense, UNLESS, there is a reason that is not rooted in the easily observed on-ice performance of one Ryan O'Reilly that kept GMs from going after him.

 

Of course. But multiple GMs being wrong, instead of just exclusively Botterill, isn't much of a consolation. 

Edited June 13, 2019 by Thorny

[dudacek]

I remember during the trade chatter how so many fans of rival teams downplayed O’Reilly’s worth; his value was a late first and a good, but not great prospect, they said. St Louis fans wouldn’t give up their #4 D (Dunn) or Robert Thomas - who sat in the stands while O’Reilly won the Smythe - for a guy they said was a 2nd liner they didn’t need.

I put his value around that of Richards and Carter and I was mocked. I might have been proven wrong last July, but I’m not happy to be proved right 11 months later.

GMs must have seen what I saw on the ice. What scared them off?

Edited June 13, 2019 by dudacek

[Thorner]

19 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I remember during the trade chatter how so many fans of rival teams downplayed O’Reilly’s worth; his value was a late first and a good, but not great prospect, they said. St Louis fans wouldn’t give up their #4 D (Dunn) or Robert Thomas - who sat in the stands while O’Reilly won the Smythe - for a guy they said was a 2nd liner they didn’t need.

I put his value around that of Richards and Carter and I was mocked. I might have been proven wrong last July, but I’m not happy to be proved right 11 months later.

GMs must have seen what I saw on the ice. What scared them off?

Aren't there still several GMs on record downplaying the significance or use of analytics? That the league as a whole still prescribes to dated narratives from decades past doesn't surprise me at all. They said Kessel couldn't win because he didn't win. Eichel is seen as unworthy in the eyes of much of the league's media because he hasn't "led his team to the playoffs". They looked at ROR and bought into the notion that you couldn't win with him because the Sabres weren't winning. 

Toews is a great player but he is heralded as one of the best ever due to team achievements. Marino is rarely considered among the best for lack of team achievement. Athletes are continually measured individually by team accomplishments, and it goes both ways. The team sucked with ROR, so there will always be people wanting to pin that failure squarely on his shoulders, believing he'd somehow carry that failure forward like a cloud. 

Edited June 13, 2019 by Thorny

[dudacek]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Aren't there still several GMs on record downplaying the significance or use of analytics? That the league as a whole still prescribes to dated narratives from decades past doesn't surprise me at all. They said Kessel couldn't win because he didn't win. Eichel is seen as unworthy in the eyes of much of the league's media because he hasn't "led his team to the playoffs". They looked at ROR and bought into the notion that you couldn't win with him because the Sabres weren't winning. 

This is definitely true of the fans, but the GMs? Maybe I’m naive, but I can’t see too many of the guys entrusted with these billion-dollar operations being that stupid. Some maybe, but not many and certainly not most.

Edited June 13, 2019 by dudacek

[darksabre]

17 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I remember during the trade chatter how so many fans of rival teams downplayed O’Reilly’s worth; his value was a late first and a good, but not great prospect, they said. St Louis fans wouldn’t give up their #4 D (Dunn) or Robert Thomas - who sat in the stands while O’Reilly won the Smythe - for a guy they said was a 2nd liner they didn’t need.

I put his value around that of Richards and Carter and I was mocked. I might have been proven wrong last July, but I’m not happy to be proved right 11 months later.

GMs must have seen what I saw on the ice. What scared them off?

Could the term left on his contract have been a deterrent? Players with five years left on a deal don't typically get traded...

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This is definitely true of the fans, but the GMs? Maybe I’m naive, but I can’t see too many of the guys entrusted with these billion-dollar operations being that stupid. Some maybe, but not many and certainly not most.

People like Brian Burke speak to these narratives all the time, and he's barely removed from being a GM. It's an old boys club still, even with new innovative names finally finding their way through. 

[dudacek]

26 minutes ago, Thorny said:

People like Brian Burke speak to these narratives all the time, and he's barely removed from being a GM. It's an old boys club still, even with new innovative names finally finding their way through. 

Good point. The Randy Carlyles keep getting hired.

It’s not that they’re stupid exactly - for all his bluster, Burke is an intelligent guy - it’s just that they go with what they know.

Edited June 14, 2019 by dudacek

[drnkirishone]

Maybe take the oreally trade talk to the proper thread (I didn't mistype the name, I made my phone accept my spelling). We don't need 3 or 4 threads talking about it

[Brawndo]

 

[TrueBlueGED]

7 hours ago, Derrico said:

I like the two Tampa and hope something gets done there.  I know it's the forward group that needs upgrading the most but I can't stop thinking about Trouba.  That guy can be a monster and if Risto is dealt in the Tampa trade then he would be the perfect replacement IMO.  What's the deal on Kessel?  Does he have a NMC?  If not would you entertain the idea?  Can you imagine a top line of Skinner - Eichel - Kessel?

Sure, sign me up for Kessel. I'd certainly rather go after him than Zucker. 

2 hours ago, LTS said:

You think it's a bad way to judge athletes.  That's fine.

Why did so few other GM's jump on the acquire Ryan O'Reilly train?  He had very low interest from the league.  Is it because they only cared about his on-ice capabilities?

Have we ever heard GMs, teammates, etc. talk about how another player is in the locker room, or their off-field/off-ice issues and how it can be disruptive to the team?

What I care about, is what his parents have said of their own child that is completely contradictory of what their own child did.  He's so mentally tough that he's the ONLY athlete I can recall ever saying that he lost his love of the game because of losing.  Is there another one?  Please, I'd love to find another one.

I care about that, and the fact that when a really good hockey player could be had for peanuts, the number of GMs that came calling were next to none.  Why? If ROR is so freakin' awesome why is it so few?  If he's the kind of player that can LEAD A TEAM TO GREATNESS because he's now the Stanley Cup MVP, why wouldn't you trade to get that player?

It doesn't make sense, UNLESS, there is a reason that is not rooted in the easily observed on-ice performance of one Ryan O'Reilly that kept GMs from going after him.

 

 

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I remember during the trade chatter how so many fans of rival teams downplayed O’Reilly’s worth; his value was a late first and a good, but not great prospect, they said. St Louis fans wouldn’t give up their #4 D (Dunn) or Robert Thomas - who sat in the stands while O’Reilly won the Smythe - for a guy they said was a 2nd liner they didn’t need.

I put his value around that of Richards and Carter and I was mocked. I might have been proven wrong last July, but I’m not happy to be proved right 11 months later.

GMs must have seen what I saw on the ice. What scared them off?

Plenty of reasons other than locker room poison. First, there aren't 30 teams that can add a $7.5M salary due to cap constraints. Second, there's going to be a group of teams who could add it but are rebuilding and would not want to deal futures for a 27 year old. There's another group legitimately set at center that would rather use their assets in other ways. There will be a group of (presumably small market) teams that the owner simply won't pay a $7.5M bonus. Sure, there will be a few who buy into the culture rumors. And there might even be some who misjudged his ability and thought Botterill wanted too much in return (it's laughable to think about on the surface, but looking at Botterill's work it's not insane to think he actually liked the St. Louis package). The idea that every GM in the league not named Armstrong was scared off by nebulous "room" concerns is pretty flimsy. 

This is also a league where Dougie Hamilton was moved for pennies on the dollar (the original Boston trade, not the Calgary trade), Hall for Larsson, Panarin for Saad, etc. A total head scratching move due to bad GMing isn't exactly a rare occurrence. 

[WildCard]

Wow, can't believe the Sharks are going to retain him. Doesn't that kick some more stuff to the Sens then?

[inkman]

13 hours ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Because it still has an impact in the present. This isn't like rehashing the co-captains who would have been long gone anyway. We're still facing a gaping hole at center because of the trade, and we're going to have to use assets to fill it we could have used to improve elsewhere. 

But what is the value is bringing it up over and over. In every thread, on and on. We know, it sucks let's move on and try to crack a ***** smile. 

[freester]

45 minutes ago, inkman said:

But what is the value is bringing it up over and over. In every thread, on and on. We know, it sucks let's move on and try to crack a ***** smile. 

Because we still have the same incompetence at GM. How can anyone trust Botteril to rebuild this team?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Many seem to grade the GM based on this one seemingly bad (time will tell, but right now it looks bad) trade.  A trade that I have no doubt that the GM did not want to make, but felt he had no choice.  Maybe he was not given a choice by the owners, my guess is that is not the case.  I really think that ROR's openness at the end of the season lead to his departure.

Let's take a quick look at the other trades of note:

Skinner ... and then re-signing him to a market value contract.  Check.

Montour ... solid D, probably top pairing, or #3 on a good Sabre team.  Check.

I think those two offset the ROR trade.

What is paramount this offseason is that Bottsie find a real 2C, either by trade, or FA.  I have no idea who / how.

The Sabres are not that far off.

Edited June 14, 2019 by New Scotland (NS)
to, two, too ... 2 many 2 choose from and I always choose wrong ...

[inkman]

1 hour ago, freester said:

Because we still have the same incompetence at GM. How can anyone trust Botteril to rebuild this team?

Well I can't do anything about it so I'm not going to constantly bitch about it like a pretty little bitch. 

[TrueBlueGED]

Just now, inkman said:

Well I can't do anything about it so I'm not going to constantly bitch about it like a pretty little bitch. 

But you are pretty, Inky! Don't let anyone tell you different! 

[freester]

1 minute ago, inkman said:

Well I can't do anything about it so I'm not going to constantly bitch about it like a pretty little bitch. 

Maybe you should get a tatoo of Botteril's face so you can remember all the good times.

[LGR4GM]

35 minutes ago, freester said:

Maybe you should get a tatoo of Botteril's face so you can remember all the good times.

Like that time he traded spare parts for Jeff Skinner or the time he traded spare parts for Montour? 

[freester]

 

38 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Like that time he traded spare parts for Jeff Skinner or the time he traded spare parts for Montour? 

The Skinner deal was great.  The Montour deal has not been determined.