Non Sabres Deadline Trades/Rumors

[Thorner]

11 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

If we're really, really insistent on post-draft season comparables, I recall reading that his Liiga season was borderline unheard of/unbelievable as an 18 year old too, does anyone have a super reliable way to compare that to Dahlin's solid if not super spectacular season in the NHL? 

He led Liiga in ice time and was voted league's best defender at age 18, was that something we can guarantee Dahlin would have beaten in the SHL? 

Well, ya. We have that information more less, at least to the largest extent we could with a hypothetical. Dahlin at 18 was as good (or better) than a 19 year old Heiskanen who was, you'd have to think, better than that 18 year old SHL Heiskanen. We've already seen that. If 18 year old Dahlin was as good as 19 year old Heiskanen, logic dictates he's at least as good as an 18 year old Miro, unless Miro got worse. And very likely better assuming Miro developed between the 2 seasons. 

If we are comparing them at the same age, if Dahlin undergoes any development at all this season his year is going to be better than Heiskanen's year last year, and he'll blow it out of the water with significant development. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

12 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Well, ya. We have that information more less, at least to the largest extent we could with a hypothetical. Dahlin at 18 was as good (or better) than a 19 year old Heiskanen who was, you'd have to think, better than that 18 year old SHL Heiskanen. We've already seen that. If 18 year old Dahlin was as good as 19 year old Heiskanen, logic dictates he's at least as good as an 18 year old Miro, unless Miro got worse. And very likely better assuming Miro developed between the 2 seasons. 

If we are comparing them at the same age, if Dahlin undergoes any development at all this season his year is going to be better than Heiskanen's year last year, and he'll blow it out of the water with significant development. 

I don't think this stuff maps like that, is all. I don't think you can guarantee Dahlin was better in the NHL this year than Miro, and I don't think that you can be sure that a season spent on Frolunda would have been clean-cut better than what Miro did in Liiga the previous year. I don't think you can guarantee anything about the summer either of them have had, until we see what it results in. And all of that puts two players within a year of each other on roughly equal footing, which calls into question naming a defenseman who probably wasn't top 25 in the NHL at his position the McDavid of defensemen, when McD spent a chunk of his rookie year as the best player of any position on the planet, more or less

[Thorner]

17 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I don't think this stuff maps like that, is all. I don't think you can guarantee Dahlin was better in the NHL this year than Miro, and I don't think that you can be sure that a season spent on Frolunda would have been clean-cut better than what Miro did in Liiga the previous year. I don't think you can guarantee anything about the summer either of them have had, until we see what it results in. And all of that puts two players within a year of each other on roughly equal footing, which calls into question naming a defenseman who probably wasn't top 25 in the NHL at his position the McDavid of defensemen, when McD spent a chunk of his rookie year as the best player of any position on the planet, more or less

I said closer to, in my original statement. 

- - - 

Also, on a separate note, McDavid was not as good as Crosby was in 15/16. I don't think it was even particularly close, offensive stretch of 36 points in 32 games, be damned. We are talking Conn-Smythe winning, prime Crosby, he of Top-10 players all time (and in my list he's flirting with Top 5). McDavid may get there but rookie McDavid was not as good as prime Crosby. Crosby arguably is still as good/better all-around. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I said closer to, in my original statement. 

Also, McDavid was not as good as Crosby was in 15/16. I don't think it was even particularly close, offensive stretch of 36 points in 32 games, aside. We are talking Conn-Smythe winning, prime Crosby, he of Top-10 players all time (and in my list he's flirting with Top 5). McDavid may get there but rookie McDavid was not as good as prime Crosby. Crosby arguably is still as good/better all-around. 

Lol Crosby deserved that Smythe about as much as I deserve the break from homework I'm taking right now! 

The second one, sure. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Lol Crosby deserved that Smythe about as much as I deserve the break from homework I'm taking right now! 

The second one, sure. 

He was the best player on that team, that playoffs. He certainly deserved it. There is no GD way Kessel was their MVP that playoffs. Not a chance. Take one player off that team, for that run, Sid or Kessel, you are taking Phil off, and you are lying if you say otherwise. Crosby's two-way play that playoffs was immaculate. 

It's prime Crosby, regardless. Prime Crosby > Rookie McD. 

Phil and Geno had their way on offence because Sid was Mr. Everything for that team, drawing all the most difficult match-ups. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

He was the best player on that team, that playoffs. He certainly deserved it. There is no GD way Kessel was their MVP that playoffs. Not a chance. Take one player off that team, for that run, Sid or Kessel, you are taking Phil off, and you are lying if you say otherwise. 

Sid was incredibly quiet for long stretches of that playoff, there was like a 150 page thread on hf boards where hockey fans of all teams combined lambasted that Conn Smythe pick at the time. It's whitewashing to say he was the best player on that team in the playoffs, that was a big thing, driven largely by Penguins fans themselves.

And this is an interesting discussion because I don't think Crosby's status as best in the game is a constant over the last decade or so. I think he probably was in 2018-19. There is not a chance you can convince me he was better than Connor in 16-17. He was about 20 points short and was notably worse in all tangible defensive metrics that exist, including those lovely regularized RAPM charts that have convinced everyone Vesey is trash. And I think the Connor at the end of 15-16 is pretty similar to the Connor of 16-17

Edited September 3, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[Thorner]

10 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Sid was incredibly quiet for long stretches of that playoff, there was like a 150 page thread on hf boards where hockey fans of all teams combined lambasted that Conn Smythe pick at the time. It's whitewashing to say he was the best player on that team in the playoffs, that was a big thing, driven largely by Penguins fans themselves.

And this is an interesting discussion because I don't think Crosby's status as best in the game is a constant over the last decade or so. I think he probably was in 2018-19. There is not a chance you can convince me he was better than Connor in 16-17. He was about 20 points short and was notably worse in all tangible defensive metrics that exist, including those lovely regularized RAPM charts that have convinced everyone Vesey is trash. And I think the Connor at the end of 15-16 is pretty similar to the Connor of 16-17

This is flat out comical, sorry. I watched that entire playoffs, I don't care what a bunch of yahoos on HF boards said because Phil Kessel had the most pointzzzzz. Is HF boards supposed to be some sort of authority? Pass. 

People online lambast everything, every Conn Smythe choice, what have you. It's the nature of the internet. It's laughable you'd consider an online resource like HF boards to have any kind of objectivity when Crosby is among the most hated players among fans. Has been since he was drafted. People wanted Kessel to win that MVP as a suck-it to the Leafs. Not remembering that is the whitewashing. 

Even when Sid wasn't scoring, the ones on that team that were scoring were able to do so because of the ridiculous attention Crosby was drawing from the other teams. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Thorny

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Not a rumour atal, but I traded an old bookcase thing for more space in our den this afternoon.  Yup.  Confirmed. E5.

[Randall Flagg]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This is flat out comical, sorry. I watched that entire playoffs, I don't care what a bunch of yahoos on HF boards said because Phil Kessel had the most pointzzzzz. Is HF boards supposed to be some sort of authority? Pass. 

Even when Sid wasn't scoring, the ones on that team that were scoring were able to do so because of the ridiculous attention Crosby was drawing from the other teams. 

I watched every second of Penguins hockey with my Pens fan buddy too, and our jaws hit the floor when the winner was announced. 

HF isn't an authority, but I've been reading there in 2012, and they've only had a hissy fit with one Conn Smythe winner in tthose seven years, and it was Sidney Crosby's first. Not his second, just his first, so it's not a Crosby thing. The thing that drove the summer-long outrage was not nothing, no matter how little you care about what other die-hard hockey fans think. 

Crosby did his job well, as did nearly every other Penguin on the roster, but he didn't deserve that Conn Smythe. He didn't even win his on-ice battle with Logan Couture in that series - their lines were even in ES goals against each other, but the Sharks controlled over 60% of expected goals, and Sid himself didn't score in the finals. The Penguins separated themselves on that run with their third line that no teams could match even if they could break even with the first two, with Crosby and Malkin, which they fairly often did (see Sid's -2). That explosive depth from Bonino and Kessel being un-match-able was the dominant story for their entire run, if it wasn't Matt Murray coming out of nowhere in the high .920s as a rookie in the playoffs a la Dryden. It was a passable decision, but incredibly eyebrow-raising and did not fit in with any dominant narrative that I was seeing at the time either in serious discussions about the playoffs as they happened or with my eyes as I watched the playoffs unfold. 

Now, given your history of Crosby posts here, I'm not exactly surprised it was clear to you ?

[Thorner]

10 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I watched every second of Penguins hockey with my Pens fan buddy too, and our jaws hit the floor when the winner was announced. 

HF isn't an authority, but I've been reading there in 2012, and they've only had a hissy fit with one Conn Smythe winner in tthose seven years, and it was Sidney Crosby's first. Not his second, just his first, so it's not a Crosby thing. The thing that drove the summer-long outrage was not nothing, no matter how little you care about what other die-hard hockey fans think. 

Crosby did his job well, as did nearly every other Penguin on the roster, but he didn't deserve that Conn Smythe. He didn't even win his on-ice battle with Logan Couture in that series - their lines were even in ES goals against each other, but the Sharks controlled over 60% of expected goals, and Sid himself didn't score in the finals. The Penguins separated themselves on that run with their third line that no teams could match even if they could break even with the first two, with Crosby and Malkin, which they fairly often did (see Sid's -2). That explosive depth from Bonino and Kessel being un-match-able was the dominant story for their entire run, if it wasn't Matt Murray coming out of nowhere in the high .920s as a rookie in the playoffs a la Dryden. It was a passable decision, but incredibly eyebrow-raising and did not fit in with any dominant narrative that I was seeing at the time either in serious discussions about the playoffs as they happened or with my eyes as I watched the playoffs unfold. 

Now, given your history of Crosby posts here, I'm not exactly surprised it was clear to you ?

To the tune of Kessel having a whopping THREE MORE POINTS than Sid, with significantly easier matchups, being counted on for significantly less defensively.

You, and the almighty HF boards, are wrong on this one, dude. Reverting to +/- seals it, if nothing else ?

Edited September 3, 2019 by Thorny

[Sabres Fan in NS]

You guys are real cute the way you are going at each other.  I would guess that you have been married for 25+ years.

I will settle this right now.  Sid is the best in the NHL right now and back then too.  He deserved the Smythe.

[Randall Flagg]

Just now, Thorny said:

To the tune of Kessel having a whopping THREE MORE POINTS than Sid, with significantly easier matchups. 

You are just wrong on this one, dude. 

I'm not. Nobody even talked about Sid until the narrative late became about how nice his trophy case would be with another one in there.

I think you're getting hung up as if I"m claiming Phil Kessel has ever been superior to Sid in any way. This has never been true, and it's also not what the Conn Smythe Trophy is about. Sid's postseason, while wonderful for a 1C, was not a Conn Smythe postseason in 2016. His play wasn't as important to the outcome as Kessel's was. It wasn't as important as Murray's was. It wasn't as important as Couture and Jones, either, who were far more important to their teams being where they were (though I recognize that others  might not share my inclination to give Conn Smythes to losers more often than it happens - I'd have given it to Tuukka Rask over my very own Boi Ryan O'Reilly this year). He was pedestrian against New York. He couldn't break even against Tampa Bay, and he couldn't against Washington either (GF% of 33%). Couture took it to his line when they matched up against each other, and he outscored Nick Bonino by one point, while Kessel's goals and points were just big effing goals and points, the kind of stuff that make Conn Smythe postseasons if not "this player is definitely a better player in a vacuum over long stretches of time." 

Sid got his 2016 Conn Smythe because of his name more than his value to the game results that happened in the spring of 2016. 

 

[Thorner]

Just now, New Scotland (NS) said:

You guys are real cute the way you are going at each other.  I would guess that you have been married for 25+ years.

I will settle this right now.  Sid is the best in the NHL right now and back then too.  He deserved the Smythe.

Given your history of Crosby posts here, I'm not exactly surprised you think this. 

[Randall Flagg]

And I still don't know how two of 18 voters left Kessel off their ballots completely, because if those two hadn't been complete and utter morons, he would have won it - it was the closest vote ever even with two guys deciding they weren't going to give him any points for some reason or another.

Probably that damned Tronna media *shakes fist

Edited September 3, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[Thorner]

Just now, Randall Flagg said:

I'm not. Nobody even talked about Sid until the narrative late became about how nice his trophy case would be with another one in there.

I think you're getting hung up as if I"m claiming Phil Kessel has ever been superior to Sid in any way. This has never been true, and it's also not what the Conn Smythe Trophy is about. Sid's postseason, while wonderful for a 1C, was not a Conn Smythe postseason in 2016. His play wasn't as important to the outcome as Kessel's was. It wasn't as important as Murray's was. It wasn't as important as Couture and Jones, either, who were far more important to their teams being where they were (though I recognize that others  might not share my inclination to give Conn Smythes to losers more often than it happens - I'd have given it to Tuukka Rask over my very own Boi Ryan O'Reilly this year). He was pedestrian against New York. He couldn't break even against Tampa Bay, and he couldn't against Washington either (GF% of 33%). Couture took it to his line when they matched up against each other, and he outscored Nick Bonino by one point, while Kessel's goals and points were just big effing goals and points, the kind of stuff that make Conn Smythe postseasons if not "this player is definitely a better player in a vacuum over long stretches of time." 

Sid got his 2016 Conn Smythe because of his name more than his value to the game results that happened in the spring of 2016. 

 

Lol. No, I am capable of understanding your argument, and I do in fact disagree with your argument, and therefore the second bolded. 

There is N.F.W. Kessel's play that postseason was as important to that team as Sid's. Kessel was able to do what he did in large part because of what Sid was able to accomplish. 

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Lol. No, I am capable of understanding your argument, and I do in fact disagree with your argument, and therefore the second bolded. 

There is N.F.W. Kessel's play that postseason was as important to that team as Sid's. Kessel was able to do what he did in large part because of what Sid was able to accomplish. 

Geno "accomplished" just as much as Sid did - although his line actually won the total postseason goal battle, unlike Sid's, so maybe even Geno should jump him, I may have to revise! 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[Thorner]

Just now, Randall Flagg said:

Geno "accomplished" just as much as Sid did - although his line won the total postseason goal battle, so maybe even Geno should jump him, I may have to revise! 

Not against the matchups Sid drew. 

[Randall Flagg]

Hagelin - Bonino - Kessel was the best line by any measure in the entire playoffs that year, and it was because of Phil Kessel's driving play in that playoffs. 

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Not against the matchups Sid drew. 

Teams beat Sid. They couldn't beat Kessel's line.

[Thorner]

Just now, Randall Flagg said:

Hagelin - Bonino - Kessel was the best line by any measure in the entire playoffs that year, and it was because of Phil Kessel's driving play in that playoffs. 

Against vastly inferior competition, to the tune of 3 more points than Sid, even given that. Going in circles. But I can do this all day. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

Crosby wasn't even better than Couture, Murray, or Jones 

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

Hagelin - Bonino - Kessel was the best line by any measure in the entire playoffs that year, and it was because of Phil Kessel's driving play in that playoffs. 

Teams beat Sid. They couldn't beat Kessel's line.

Very infrequently. Conn Smythe is for the whole playoffs, not just the final series. 

[Curt]

I don’t care who won the Conn Smyth whatever year that was, and whether they deserved it or not.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

Crosby wasn't even better than Couture, Murray, or Jones 

There's a better argument for Couture, but we aren't debating McDavid vs Crosby anymore. We are debating who deserved the Conn Smythe, and it wasn't going to a player on the losing team. 

[Randall Flagg]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Against vastly inferior competition, to the tune of 3 more points than Sid, even given that. Going in circles. But I can do this all day. 

Imagine your vastly inferior competition meaning that these were the skaters you saw the most in the playoffs:
Burns, Couture, Niskanen and Carlson (ie Washington's number 1 pair), Hedman more than any other Tampa D, the Kuznetsov line

If Crosby's competition was vastly superior, he must have been playing against Bobby Orr himself and I missed it?

Teams were aware which line was killing them haha and they adjusted accordingly. It was literally the goddamn story of the postseason

Edited September 3, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Imagine your vastly inferior competition meaning that these were the skaters you saw the most in the playoffs:
Burns, Couture, Niskanen and Carlson (ie Washington's number 1 pair), Hedman more than any other Tampa D, the Kuznetsov line

If Crosby's competition was vastly superior, he must have been playing against Bobby Orr himself and I missed it?

Who did Crosby see most? And it's about the entirety of competition faced. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Thorny