Non Sabres Deadline Trades/Rumors

[darksabre]

18 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

Lance Lysowski, Buffalo News is hearing Risto, Scandella and Hunwick are on the block.

I don't see this anywhere.

[North Buffalo]

Yeh just checked his twitter page... nadda

[Sabres Fan in NS]

11 hours ago, Thorny said:

Maybe.

People are saying the timeline is improvement(bubble team, at most) this year, playoffs next. I'm simply shifting it back a year, thinking it's Small improvement, Bubble Team, Playoffs. 

Dahlin's first non-ELC year. (Expansion year, first (full?) year after potential lockout)

I  think this is a reasonable approach.  Fans seem to think that JBOT has simply carried on where Murray had left off, which puts us heading into year 5 since drafting Eichsie.

JBOT spent 2 offseasons undoing much of what Murray had done and getting to a starting point for what he envisioned the Sabres to be.  IMO, JBOT will be safe for 2 more offseasons, unless there is a complete disaster that is not the result of injuries.

[WildCard]

31 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I don't see this anywhere.

It's a reasonable assumption though

[darksabre]

2 minutes ago, WildCard said:

It's a reasonable assumption though

I mean, sure. But that's different than a beat writer actually saying it.

[Taro T]

9 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

He had more problems than that, including a propensity for his only regular even strength offensive play to be peeling off the boards and then losing the puck in no man's land between the circles and the point men

But, because his go to move is to take the puck INTO the phone booth and THEN either get the shot or set up the open winger, there was a good reason to NOT have him in Ra-cha-cha last season: that move would work more often then not there and he'd still need to learn when to try that at the NHL level when he got sent up.  Now, he's got a year of understanding under his belt.

That, combined with 'man strength' a year from now will serve his development well.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Taro T

[WildCard]

16 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I mean, sure. But that's different than a beat writer actually saying it.

Well that's my point, what makes you not believe what he's saying?

[darksabre]

1 minute ago, WildCard said:

Well that's my point, what makes you not believe what he's saying?

It's got nothing to do with belief. Lysowski simply hasn't posted anything anywhere that says that.

[WildCard]

1 minute ago, darksabre said:

It's got nothing to do with belief. Lysowski simply hasn't posted anything anywhere that says that.

Ah nvm. I thought you weren't believing Lysowski, but you're not see what the poster here claims Lysowski said

Edited August 8, 2019 by WildCard

[nfreeman]

32 minutes ago, Taro T said:

But, because his go to move is to take the puck INTO the phone booth and THEN either get the shot or set up the open winger, there was a good reason to NOT have him in Ra-cha-cha last season: that move would work more often then not there and he'd still need to learn when to try that at the NHL level when he got sent up.  Now, he's got a year of understanding under his belt.

That, combined with 'man strength' a year from now will serve his development well.

I sure hope this does the trick, because I was deeply disappointed at how frequently and easily the opposing D took the puck from him last year.  He was nowhere near ready for the speed and skill of NHL defenders.

[Randall Flagg]

1 hour ago, Scottysabres said:

Lance Lysowski, Buffalo News is hearing Risto, Scandella and Hunwick are on the block.

Echoing the ask for where you saw or heard this? 

[dudacek]

36 minutes ago, Taro T said:

But, because his go to move is to take the puck INTO the phone booth and THEN either get the shot or set up the open winger, there was a good reason to NOT have him in Ra-cha-cha last season: that move would work more often then not there and he'd still need to learn when to try that at the NHL level when he got sent up.  Now, he's got a year of understanding under his belt.

That, combined with 'man strength' a year from now will serve his development well.

Are you saying staff made an informed decision that given Casey’s skill set playing in the NHL all year was actually going to be better for his development? I’ll be damned...

[darksabre]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Are you saying staff made an informed decision that given Casey’s skill set playing in the NHL all year was actually going to be better for his development? I’ll be damned...

Weird. It's almost as if "rushing players into the NHL and ruining their development" is a myth created by fans to excuse the fact that their young players simply don't pan out sometimes.

Mittelstadt's talent is undeniable. The only thing he needed last year was NHL seasoning, which is what he got in droves. It will have clarified his off-season goals and with any luck he's working his nuts off in preparation for the grind he now fully understands.

Sometimes you just have to throw guys into the fire. Some even thrive on being in over their heads.

[Randall Flagg]

If it was a good decision to not have him in Rochester last season, I would be inclined to believe that there would have been tangible, meaningful development in Mitts' game from game one to game 82 last year. 

Trying to be as objective as possible, I didn't see a different player at all, and he may have even been less confident at the end. I can't really find hard evidence he developed. That's scary to me, even if he gets better this offseason, because that could be 6 months that could have had more growth (picture Asplund in the AHL last year). I don't see how Mitts would have been immune to getting better like that - he was simply really bad in the NHL all season long.

There's no improvement in his counting stats either - in his last 23 games he had 3 goals, 2 assists, 5 points, and was a -14. In his first 23 games he was 4-4 for 8 points, with a plus-minus of 0. 

I don't think it's a guarantee at all that he would have had too easy a time in the AHL - a guy like Kyle Connor had a much better post-draft college season, still spent most of a year in the AHL when he had less of an argument to go there than Mitts, and came into the league the following year as a 30 goal forward, already NHL-good. Incredibly skeptical that Mitts would have been too successful for this path to have been worth it development-wise when his NHL season was what it was. 

The reality is that compared to his peers, outside of a seven game tournament (which we've seen affect player expectations far too much an infinite amount of times), Mitts hasn't showed in high school, college, or the NHL to be the level of player that guys like Pronman had us all ready to believe he was. 

This isn't saying that he can't become a very good NHLer. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[shrader]

I'm still under the belief that they agreed to not send him to the AHL when they signed him out of school.  There's nothing legally binding about it, but they're honoring their word.  I have a hard time coming up with any other explanation for him not getting some time there towards the end of the season.

[darksabre]

17 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

If it was a good decision to not have him in Rochester last season, I would be inclined to believe that there would have been tangible, meaningful development in Mitts' game from game one to game 82 last year. 

Trying to be as objective as possible, I didn't see a different player at all, and he may have even been less confident at the end. I can't really find hard evidence he developed. That's scary to me, even if he gets better this offseason, because that could be 6 months that could have had more growth (picture Asplund in the AHL last year). I don't see how Mitts would have been immune to getting better like that - he was simply really bad in the NHL all season long.

There's no improvement in his counting stats either - in his last 23 games he had 3 goals, 2 assists, 5 points, and was a -14. In his first 23 games he was 4-4 for 8 points, with a plus-minus of 0. 

I don't think it's a guarantee at all that he would have had too easy a time in the AHL - a guy like Kyle Connor had a much better post-draft college season, still spent most of a year in the AHL when he had less of an argument to go there than Mitts, and came into the league the following year as a 30 goal forward, already NHL-good. Incredibly skeptical that Mitts would have been too successful for this path to have been worth it development-wise when his NHL season was what it was. 

The reality is that compared to his peers, outside of a seven game tournament (which we've seen affect player expectations far too much an infinite amount of times), Mitts hasn't showed in high school, college, or the NHL to be the level of player that guys like Pronman had us all ready to believe he was. 

What Mitts did last year really doesn't matter to me. Either he was in the AHL not helping the Sabres, or he was in the NHL not helping the Sabres. Either way the result of last season is roughly the same: he got pro experience.

AHL points don't mean anything to me, so it doesn't matter to me that he wasn't down there scoring more of them or whatever.

What matters is how he performs this year. That's all there is to it. Where he played his hockey last season is pretty much irrelevant.

[Randall Flagg]

3 minutes ago, darksabre said:

What Mitts did last year really doesn't matter to me. Either he was in the AHL not helping the Sabres, or he was in the NHL not helping the Sabres. Either way the result of last season is roughly the same: he got pro experience.

AHL points don't mean anything to me, so it doesn't matter to me that he wasn't down there scoring more of them or whatever.

What matters is how he performs this year. That's all there is to it. Where he played his hockey last season is pretty much irrelevant.

Sure, it doesn't matter to the Sabres, but I think it matters to Mitts. Maybe he developed, I just didn't see it happen, and so I worry a bit. Because a guy like Asplund shows how much a young player is capable of developing in-season. 

[dudacek]

38 minutes ago, darksabre said:

Sometimes you just have to throw guys into the fire. Some even thrive on being in over their heads.

Casey's personality just seems to be like that annoying little brother who shouldn’t be playing with the big kids but just keeps coming.

@Randall Flagg makes a good case, as do you. We all hope you are proven correct.

 

36 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

The reality is that compared to his peers, outside of a seven game tournament (which we've seen affect player expectations far too much an infinite amount of times), Mitts hasn't showed in high school, college, or the NHL to be the level of player that guys like Pronman had us all ready to believe he was. 

The rest of your post was excellent. This reads like the echo of a stats-watcher on HF. 

The Athletic piece was a Wheeler piece, not Pronman (pretty sure Pronman was just as high on him too) and is full of references to his play at Minnesota and at various camps and tourneys outside the WJC. It is the informed opinion of a guy who watched him a lot and breaks down in detail what he does well. Very Flagg-esque, actually. You are correct that he did not show overwhelming statistical dominance in the USHL or the NCAA; it was more like a point a game as a rookie. But in scouting, the types of plays a player can make matters more than production and he did show skill dominance on a regular basis, making plays others could not.

Compared to his peers, Casey is tracking alongside Thomas and Chytil as the fifth most productive NHL player from his draft class. Considering he was far and away the furthest from the NHL in that group when he was drafted, saying he was simply the creation of WJC hype rings hollow.

This isn’t saying he will become a very good NHLer.

Edited August 8, 2019 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

12 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Casey's personality just seems to be like that annoying little brother who shouldn’t be playing with the big kids but just keeps coming.

@Randall Flagg makes a good case, as do you. We all hope you are proven correct.

 

The rest of your post was excellent. This reads like the echo of a stats-watcher on HF. 

The Athletic piece was a Wheeler piece, not Pronman (pretty sure Pronman was just as high on him too) and is full of references to his play at Minnesota and at various camps and tourneys outside the WJC. It is the informed opinion of a guy who watched him a lot and breaks down in detail what he does well. Very Flagg-esque, actually. You are correct that he did not show overwhelming statistical dominance in the USHL or the NCAA; it was more like a point a game as a rookie. But in scouting, the types of plays a player can make matters more than production and he did show skill dominance on a regular basis, making plays others could not.

Compared to his peers, Casey is tracking alongside Thomas and Chytil as the fifth most productive NHL player from his draft class. Considering he was far and away the furthest from the NHL in that group when he was drafted, saying he was simply the creation of WJC hype rings hollow.

This isn’t saying he will become a very good NHLer.

I'm referring to Pronman's placing him as the best non-Dahlin non-NHL prospect, over guys like Pettersson. There was never any justification for that. 

And it was less than a point per game, in a league where his peers regularly were well over at the same stage (peers being the guys that we compared him to regularly - Kellers, Boesers, Connors etc). 

I'm not trying to say Mitts doesn't deserve any hype or praise. I think he's a good prospect, and as far as I know, there's nobody else we should have taken at 7 yet even in hindsight. But Pronman doing what he did, and his WJC MVP, created a season that some fans who excuse it now would have called other people miserable for suggesting it would happen beforehand.

I haven't read the Athletic piece, and I'm sure it shows a very good hockey player. You could have done the same thing for Tyson Jost at the time, who I continue to see as an eerily similar player on the ice and in the stat book to Mitts. He began to break out at the end of last season, by the way. He's going to be a very nice player. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

36 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

If it was a good decision to not have him in Rochester last season, I would be inclined to believe that there would have been tangible, meaningful development in Mitts' game from game one to game 82 last year. 

Trying to be as objective as possible, I didn't see a different player at all, and he may have even been less confident at the end. I can't really find hard evidence he developed. That's scary to me, even if he gets better this offseason, because that could be 6 months that could have had more growth (picture Asplund in the AHL last year). I don't see how Mitts would have been immune to getting better like that - he was simply really bad in the NHL all season long.

There's no improvement in his counting stats either - in his last 23 games he had 3 goals, 2 assists, 5 points, and was a -14. In his first 23 games he was 4-4 for 8 points, with a plus-minus of 0. 

I don't think it's a guarantee at all that he would have had too easy a time in the AHL - a guy like Kyle Connor had a much better post-draft college season, still spent most of a year in the AHL when he had less of an argument to go there than Mitts, and came into the league the following year as a 30 goal forward, already NHL-good. Incredibly skeptical that Mitts would have been too successful for this path to have been worth it development-wise when his NHL season was what it was. 

The reality is that compared to his peers, outside of a seven game tournament (which we've seen affect player expectations far too much an infinite amount of times), Mitts hasn't showed in high school, college, or the NHL to be the level of player that guys like Pronman had us all ready to believe he was. 

This isn't saying that he can't become a very good NHLer. 

Just about everyone on the team had better stats in the first 23g.....there was some reason for that and I can't put my finger on it but, I'll investigate further and get back to ya!!!

EDIT: Now I remember.....it was that 10 game win streak we are supposed to forget happened, LOL. ??

[Derrico]

15 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Sure, it doesn't matter to the Sabres, but I think it matters to Mitts. Maybe he developed, I just didn't see it happen, and so I worry a bit. Because a guy like Asplund shows how much a young player is capable of developing in-season. 

Don’t forget that everyone and their grandmother sucked down the stretch.  I would suggest it isn’t uncommon for rookies who are use to playing 30 or 40 games a year to fade down the stretch when they start hitting game 50 plus.  There were stretches of Dahlin where I thought he looked tired at the end.

I’m with Dark.  He needs to take that step this season, last seasons use in nhl vs ahl is irrelevant. I’m frankly not as down or worried as some of you but if it’s april 2020 and he’s burried down the lineup then I will be very concerned.  His expectations last season were sky high and he underachieved.  His expectations seem to be incredibly low going into this year and it won’t surprise me in the least if he overachieves in comparison to what some feel he will do.

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, Derrico said:

Don’t forget that everyone and their grandmother sucked down the stretch.  I would suggest it isn’t uncommon for rookies who are use to playing 30 or 40 games a year to fade down the stretch when they start hitting game 50 plus.  There were stretches of Dahlin where I thought he looked tired at the end.

I’m with Dark.  He needs to take that step this season, last seasons use in nhl vs ahl is irrelevant. I’m frankly not as down or worried as some of you but if it’s april 2020 and he’s burried down the lineup then I will be very concerned.  His expectations last season were sky high and he underachieved.  His expectations seem to be incredibly low going into this year and it won’t surprise me in the least if he overachieves in comparison to what some feel he will do.

Sure they sucked down the stretch - my argument was that it's not a promising thing for the development of a prospect. I would never pin that -14 difference in plus minus on Mitts himself for that reason - I just can't find tangible development from him at any stage in the season. Regardless of why that happened and what the team did around him, that's never something I want to say about any prospect in any situation, much less one as important as Mitts.

This is different from saying that I don't think MItts can have a nice season playing with Sam and Johansson or something. I have faith in the kid. 

[TrueBlueGED]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Casey's personality just seems to be like that annoying little brother who shouldn’t be playing with the big kids but just keeps coming.

@Randall Flagg makes a good case, as do you. We all hope you are proven correct.

 

The rest of your post was excellent. This reads like the echo of a stats-watcher on HF. 

The Athletic piece was a Wheeler piece, not Pronman (pretty sure Pronman was just as high on him too) and is full of references to his play at Minnesota and at various camps and tourneys outside the WJC. It is the informed opinion of a guy who watched him a lot and breaks down in detail what he does well. Very Flagg-esque, actually. You are correct that he did not show overwhelming statistical dominance in the USHL or the NCAA; it was more like a point a game as a rookie. But in scouting, the types of plays a player can make matters more than production and he did show skill dominance on a regular basis, making plays others could not.

Compared to his peers, Casey is tracking alongside Thomas and Chytil as the fifth most productive NHL player from his draft class. Considering he was far and away the furthest from the NHL in that group when he was drafted, saying he was simply the creation of WJC hype rings hollow.

This isn’t saying he will become a very good NHLer.

To be fair, I don't think Botterill making an (incorrect) judgment about Casey's NHL readiness is really a feather in his cap. There's no way to prove this, of course, but I'd bet more than 0 players for Mitts' draft class could have put up the turd of a season he did if their respective GMs had placed them in the NHL. 

[Zamboni]

Meh .... I’m not at all worried about Mitts having a nice NHL career. For me, as long as he develops into a solid top 6 forward I’ll be happy. For me, he doesn’t need to pour in 70-80 points a year to like him. His draft position vs. expectations doesn't carry as much weight with me as some fans really weigh it. ?‍♂️

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

To be fair, I don't think Botterill making an (incorrect) judgment about Casey's NHL readiness is really a feather in his cap. There's no way to prove this, of course, but I'd bet more than 0 players for Mitts' draft class could have put up the turd of a season he did if their respective GMs had placed them in the NHL. 

LOL, well Thomas and Patrick’s numbers were only slightly better, and Lias Anderson and Michael Rasmussen put up bigger turds, so maybe you can prove it. ?