Non Sabres Deadline Trades/Rumors

[LGR4GM]

56 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Suggested to me off-line by another Sabrespace poster:  Risto and Reino for Laine.

Who says no?

I think Winnipeg says no.

I know it subtracts the Sabres' best RW and best trade chip for an upgrade at #1 RW -- but holy mackerel that top line the Sabres would have.

If you think Laine is better than Reinhart, you are flat out wrong. Every single piece of evidence from the eye test to the stats say Reinhart is a better hockey player. 

[Thorner]

Just now, Randall Flagg said:

To his credit, it sounds like his diet has gotten better. Big Buff will get him in line eventually. 

Buff will be a shell of himself soon enough if they re-up him after next season so I'm not sure he'll command much respect from Laine if he hasn't already. 

[Randall Flagg]

 

"Laine's had some nice moments on the top line but let's not pretend it's been some kind of groundswell of production. He's simply not scoring at a rate expected of a player of his caliber. He's fighting the puck and has endured multiple and substantial slumps. What else can you do with him? He's been given an extended opportunity on the 1st line and it's not working."

 

"1 5v5 goal in his past 29 games... this includes time with 55 & 26. need more from him, a lot more"

"It is hard with Laine. Everyone can see he is talented with a shot most players could only dream of, but fact is that he drags down pretty much everyone he is playing with. He is terrible even strength due to his lack of defensive abilities, so why put him in top 6!?

I can only see him fit in one top 6 combo, and that is with Hayes and Ehlers. Both are good defensively. Laine will not make them better but perhaps they will be able to get Laine in a shooting spot more often."

"This year, Bryan Little is better than Laine. Little has almost as many points with less ice time. Little has way more 5v5 points. Little has more game winning goals. And Little has the same/slightly better shooting percentage as Laine. I won't even touch the +/-, but we all know that Bryan Little is a solid defensive player. Can't say that about Laine. Little even has less penalty minutes. I am not saying this to make the case that Bryan Little is some sort of superstar. He's not. Laine was and still can be a superstar in this league.

Laine has taken a huge step backwards this year. I am still completely perplexed if this is mostly on Laine, or mostly on the Jets development plan/activities/assignments for him. We need to do better by this kid. He is the most important asset in Jets 2.0 history."

"I thought this kid was already a bonafide superstar but this last year has been really frustrating to watch. He looks slow, and his agility is poor. The first half of his first season he was absolutely exhilarating to watch. Rushing the puck, toe drags, good possession. Now he just gets tracked down and stripped so easily.

I keep praying for the old PL. I hope that he reemerges with this new attention to defensive detail. 

Until then he has to get a bridge? Unless he's willing to sign long term at around 6 (which I know he won't)."

"To be fair, I think he has always looked slow in NHL. I wish he would focus more on that area: speed, and aggressiveness without the puck. Maybe he's doing it, but progress doesn't happen overnight. Anyway it's getting tiresome to watch him be 2 steps behind and trying to awkwardly reach for the puck. He has to get those legs going at least a bit faster. He already has the frame, and will have the strength needed, so that Ehlers-speed isn't needed to make him unstoppable 

I believe he will get there. This 3rd season slumping just couldn't come in at much worse time regarding his future deal. Who knows, maybe he'll go on a tear in the playoffs. Though it's very unlikely when play gets even tighter." 

Man, a lot of these fans cite the McCabe hit as some sort of turning point. It's referenced as "mccabe" and they all know what they mean when they say it. 

These quotes are from a random discussion in late March. 

Like dark, I would happily take a risk on Laine, but I wouldn't touch any of our assets with REAL value, and so it wouldn't happen. 

[WildCard]

Imagine being a Jets' fan right now and having to deal with that headache 

[Derrico]

Laine for Risto straight up is an obvious yes tho right?

[WildCard]

Just now, Derrico said:

Laine for Risto straight up is an obvious yes tho right?

Ehhhhhh

Again Laine is just such an incredible headache and he's going to cost so freaking much. I'd rather spend the currency of Risto elsewhere

[Randall Flagg]

4 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Laine for Risto straight up is an obvious yes tho right?

I wouldn't get mad at the Sabres for doing that but I don't think I would.

He's the head of the list of "good" hockey players that I want no part of. Similar to Kessel, JVR, Pacioretty, probably Kreider, Johansen

[Taro T]

17 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Laine for Risto straight up is an obvious yes tho right?

Probably.  Though would rather have Ehlers (even with the Sabres glut of lefties playing wing).

[darksabre]

20 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Laine for Risto straight up is an obvious yes tho right?

I think Jets fans would be too happy about that, so I'm gonna say no.

To even consider it I'd need for Laine's deal to have been negotiated already.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

We said the same thing about ROR, who promptly won a Selke and Conn Smythe the immediate season after he left. In the NHL, no single player can individually turn around a franchise. Connor McDavid is a 110+ point superstar, playing with a 50 goal Draisaitl, and their team is in the dumps. Edmonton certainly gets sustainable winning hockey from them, they just don't from the dumpster fire that is the parts of their organization on the ice for the other 40 minutes of the game. It's not an excuse to move the two good pieces they have - take a step back and look at the context! If we wish to improve the Sabres, we need to do that here. The Sabres had the worst center depth in the league this year. They spent the season trotting Sobotka out against Matthews, Stamkos, Kuznetsov, Malkin etc. Their goalies were far below average in goals allowed based on the shots they saw. Their depth forwards behind Jack, Sam, and Skinner (while those three spent about a month post-streak with ludicrous production) scored a combined one goal from six players over 4 weeks of hockey. These are the dominant reasons for the Sabres' season, not the presence of Reinhart and Risto. These roster failures don't preclude having good players that can be key pieces on winning teams, just like I argued to people with their fingers in their ears last summer both before and after the ROR move. The presence of good players on a bad team is not indicative of those players' abilities, and teams that act under this philosophy do things like trade Conn Smythe winners for piles of garbage. 

Reinhart DOES contribute to sustainable, winning hockey, by virtue of improving the play of every teammate that plays with him and doing a million little things right to tip the ice. League average save percentage would take his positive shares in every advanced stat there is and turn them into a positive plus minus - a stat which Laine was minus 24 at despite 60% offensive zone starts and intensive sheltering from other teams' top players. 

And I don't think you've watched Laine skate recently. The dude eats fast food and plays fortnite 8 hours a day and it's showing in his fitness, the dude looks gassed three shifts into every game. He's a complete plodder on the ice. And he's bad at hockey, outside of shooting the puck, something he's incapable of doing in the most important part of the game (ES) unless his teammates do all the work for him. His tape is plain bad, and I'll get some to illustrate if we actually make a move for him.

The Sabres don't need to submarine their ES play to improve their power play scoring. Their net special teams the past four years has been +10, +4, -2, and +4. They are bottom of the barrel at even strength hockey, something that Laine is absolutely dreadful at. Reinhart is actually good at it, and it will show on a winning team whenever we decide to put one together, and saddling him, one of three or four members of the entire organization to do any semblance of pulling their own weight the last four years, with the blame for the team-level results is like squinting at a car crash from three miles away and blaming the democrats/republicans for it. Risto and Reinhart are some of the only valuable trade pieces we have and we need to be careful with how we dole them out. Sending two of them for an ES dumpster fire would be horrifying. 

 

I don't agree with your conclusions but reading this post made me happy to be part of this hockey community.

 

Serious question:  if the 29 GMs not involved in this trade were polled, how many would take Laine over Reino?

I'd guess at least 20.

[WildCard]

12 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I don't agree with your conclusions but reading this post made me happy to be part of this hockey community.

Serious question:  if the 29 GMs not involved in this trade were polled, how many would take Laine over Reino?

I'd guess at least 20.

Well he's young and has a much higher ceiling, and goals are sexy and his talent is undeniable. Those are all very, very attractive things to GMs who see Laine as special and one of a kind whereas Reinhart is just steady/stable/consistent

Laine is too volatile for his effort, skill set, and price tag for me to be interested 

[Randall Flagg]

18 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I don't agree with your conclusions but reading this post made me happy to be part of this hockey community.

 

Serious question:  if the 29 GMs not involved in this trade were polled, how many would take Laine over Reino?

I'd guess at least 20.

I have no idea. NHL GMs may value upside differently than I do - Laine certainly has far more upside.

They also might value intangibles more than I do - and Laine's are sketchy as hell. Some of the stuff coming out of the friedmans etc. earlier this summer were very much against the type of character the Pegulas have been looking for, though I'm not sure how much I buy it. 

Marek asked Friedman how he expected Winnipeg to do next season and followed this up with the question “How much of it revolves around Patrik Laine bouncing back?”.
Freidman replied “Laine is a whole big discussion right because he’s the one guy who seems to want a short bridge (contract) of all these guys. He didn’t leave happy last year and we’ve talked about this, some of that was his own fault, he wasn’t as good as he could be and I think he chafed under some of the leadership there. The guys at the top of that food chain are hard driving guys. They expect you to buy into the program and I think that they felt he didn’t buy in enough and I think he felt that some of the things that they wanted were ridiculous. So you got to bridge that too.”

And I readily admit to having very different (and possibly very wrong!) opinions about players that many NHL GMs would love. The most recent example is me complaining that I'd never in a million years give an asset for Jimmy Vesey

[NAF]

56 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I think Jets fans would be too happy about that, so I'm gonna say no.

To even consider it I'd need for Laine's deal to have been negotiated already.

Are you crazy!? Risto’s advanced stats are even worse than Laine’s! Our RD slot is filled, whereas our 2nd best RW is Conor freaking Sheary. If JB has the chance to trade Ristolainen (who may or may not be able to read) for a young, top five goalscorer in the league and doesn’t do he needs to be fired ASAP. I don’t give a rat’s ass about work ethic or ES goals if the guy can score 44 in one season. You bring up a legitimate concern with his contract, but that’s a good problem to have. I’d rather have that problem than seeing the Sabres finish near last in goals for next season, because I don’t see Tage Thompson and Kyle Okposo really being able to bring us out of the gutter.

[Derrico]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

I think Jets fans would be too happy about that, so I'm gonna say no.

To even consider it I'd need for Laine's deal to have been negotiated already.

Really?  Wowzers.  I guess this is just one of those guys you see all the goal scoring from afar and you assume is good but when speaking with Jets fanbase there are some serious  flaws.  

[dudacek]

I think @nfreeman‘s 20 NHL GMs thing might have been true a year ago. I bet it’s flipped on its head now.

The key variable is money. Patrik is going to want a lot more and the chances of him mailing it in are substantially higher.

[darksabre]

9 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Really?  Wowzers.  I guess this is just one of those guys you see all the goal scoring from afar and you assume is good but when speaking with Jets fanbase there are some serious  flaws.  

I don't really want someone who struggles with "culture" anywhere near this club. We have had enough problems with that.

[TrueBlueGED]

I need somebody to make a "find someone who looks at you the way @nfreeman looks at goals" meme. If player X scores more goals than player Y, Freeman will find a way to like player X more. ?

[Scottysabres]

so what's the latest on Risto? Is Tampa out and we are now down to how many teams?

[triumph_communes]

Risto+McCabe+Smith to ANA for Rakell

Sign Gardiner 3x6$

 

Just keep ELC players down on paper for opening roster then LTIR Bogosian on day 1 of season.  Over 4 mil in LTIR to cover bonuses worst case, trade Scandella mid season opens up any cap needed when Bogo and Pilut returns.

 

Skinner-Eichel-Rakell

Sheary-Johansson-Reinhart

Vesey-Mittelstadt-Oloffson

Girgensons-Larsson-Rodrigues

Okposo

Bury: Sobotka, Wilson

 

Dahlin-Montour

Gardiner-Joki

Scandella-Miller

Nelson

Bury: Hunwick

IR: Bogosian, Pilut. When Pilut returns, trade or 7D Scandella. When Bogosian returns, same.  Nelson is expendable here

 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by triumph_communes

[Cascade Youth]

So uh... any actual news or rumors?

[Tondas]

39 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Risto+McCabe+Smith to ANA for Rakell

Sign Gardiner 3x6$

 

Just keep ELC players down on paper for opening roster then LTIR Bogosian on day 1 of season.  Over 4 mil in LTIR to cover bonuses worst case, trade Scandella mid season opens up any cap needed when Bogo and Pilut returns.

 

Skinner-Eichel-Rakell

Sheary-Johansson-Reinhart

Vesey-Mittelstadt-Oloffson

Girgensons-Larsson-Rodrigues

Okposo

Bury: Sobotka, Wilson

 

Dahlin-Montour

Gardiner-Joki

Scandella-Miller

Nelson

Bury: Hunwick

IR: Bogosian, Pilut. When Pilut returns, trade or 7D Scandella. When Bogosian returns, same.  Nelson is expendable here

 

 

Seems a little steep for Rakell.  I'd go Risto and Erod (don't think Smith get the deal done).  No to McCabe with his new 2 year deal.

[triumph_communes]

4 minutes ago, Tondas said:

Seems a little steep for Rakell.  I'd go Risto and Erod (don't think Smith get the deal done).  No to McCabe with his new 2 year deal.

You do McCabe to shed cap

 

Rakell doesn’t have the term that’s ideal, but neither do Risto or McCabe.  That’s what makes it a fair trade. 

 

Got to overpay a little to get them to move Rakell, but I don’t see any other teams in the league taking on all the cap this trade sheds for anything we’d actually want or they’d actually part with. Tampa was held back by NTC. Cap holds back most other teams. 

[Tondas]

2 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

You do McCabe to shed cap

Rakell doesn’t have the term that’s ideal, but neither do Risto or McCabe.  That’s what makes it a fair trade. 

Got to overpay a little to get them to move Rakell, but I don’t see any other teams in the league taking on all the cap this trade sheds for anything we’d actually want or they’d actually part with. Tampa was held back by NTC. Cap holds back most other teams. 

I'd buy out Sobotka and Scandella before I shipped McCabe off. 

Are we getting the Rakell of 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 or the 2018-2019 version?  He had a big drop off.

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, Derrico said:

Really?  Wowzers.  I guess this is just one of those guys you see all the goal scoring from afar and you assume is good but when speaking with Jets fanbase there are some serious  flaws.  

I've been telling people he's not actually good at hockey for 2 years. 

[Weave]

I think any trade that swaps Sam for Laine doesn't upgrade anything.  If it goes well, you've changed the skillsets but haven't addressed any holes. And the trade brings non-insignificant risk given the trend in Laine's performance

Risto for Laine I'd do.  Keep Sam.  Add another high end talent at forward.  Move a player from a position of depth.  Now you are looking at the kind of depth at wing that make Casey at 3C a dangerous line.