Bogosian Signs a 1.3 Million Dollar Deal with Tampa

[Weave]

49 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Related, has anyone else noticed how Botterill has slowly squandered our defence depth? If we don’t move Frolik by the deadline, Scandella and Bogosian together will have netted us a big, fat nothing.

If Montour or Risto goes for a centre we’re back to having a big hole to fill in our top four again.

It sure seems that there wasn't much to get for what we had.  Hard to believe that couldn't have been better managed.

[dudacek]

26 minutes ago, Curt said:

Bogosian has no trade value.  He is always hurt, he’s not very good when he plays, and he makes a lot of money.

Scandella had a little trade value because he was playing reasonably well, but he wasn’t cheap and he was a rental.

Neither of those two were going to help the defensive depth beyond this season.  Did you expect that one of them would be traded for a 2C?  Im just a little confused about what you think was squandered.

Defense next season: 

LD: Dahlin, McCabe, Pilut

RD: Jokiharju, Risto, Montour, Miller, Borgen

It looks to me like the D still has the depth to absorb a Risto/Montour teade for a C and make it a net positive for Buffalo.

I’m talking asset management.

We had two veteran NHL defencemen that ideally would have been used to either

a) fill a roster hole created by a Risto trade to keep us competitive this season while the kids grew, or

b) were shipped off to another team with blueline needs for picks.

Or, preferably, both.

Instead, we got Bogo’s cap hit handcuffing us from other moves, Colin Miller sitting in the press box, and a short-term replacement for Vlad Sobotka (when we already had that in Curtis Lazar)

Sure Bogosian’s poor play was a factor, but all the depth Botterill acquired this summer did nothing for our team on the ice this year and has been translated into nothing that might help us in the future.

Like Weave says, it’s hard to believe that hand could not have been played better. Botterill sat on his hands and squandered assets.

Edited February 16, 2020 by dudacek

[Curt]

13 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I’m talking asset management.

We had two veteran NHL defencemen that ideally would have been used to either

a) fill a roster hole created by a Risto trade to keep us competitive this season while the kids grew, or

b) were shipped off to another team with blueline needs for picks.

Or, preferably, both.

Instead, we got Bogo’s cap hit handcuffing us from other moves, Colin Miller sitting in the press box, and a short-term replacement for Vlad Sobotka (when we already had that in Curtis Lazar)

Sure Bogosian’s poor play was a factor, but all the depth Botterill acquired this summer did nothing for our team on the ice this year and has been translated into no assets that might help us in the future.

He sat on his hands and squandered assets.

Bogo was never in a position to help the team.  He is a negative value asset both in terms of trade and on the ice.  He wasn’t going to net anything in a trade and he wouldn’t be any more of a Risto replacement than Colin Miller or someone from Rochester.

Scandella was a pleasant surprise this season.  He was so bad last season that I didn’t know if Buffalo would be able to get anything at all from him this season.  He actually helped the team at LD this season, a position that they actually are not that deep at.  Using him to acquire Frolik is debatable, but if you would have been happier holding the 4th round pick, that’s a reasonable, but relatively minor criticism.

The defensive depth that Botterill acquired over the summer is going to help the team for years to come, so I’m not upset about that.  That depth is long term and still allows Buffalo to trade a D for a C at any time without creating a hole in the top 4.

I think I get where you are coming from though, I too wish a deal would have been made already to acquire a good C.  I don’t know why it hasn’t though.  Is Botterill sitting on his hands or was the deal just not there?  How could I know?  I’m impatiently waiting for that trade though.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Related, has anyone else noticed how Botterill has slowly squandered our defence depth? If we don’t move Frolik by the deadline, Scandella and Bogosian together will have netted us a big, fat nothing.

If Montour or Risto goes for a centre we’re back to having a big hole to fill in our top four again.

Based on what?  Even if we move on from Risto or Montour, we still have Dahlin, Jokiharju, Miller, McCabe, Pilut and Borgen.

Scandella and Bogo were going to be gone after this season anyway, I don’t see Jbot as squandering anything especially when you consider that we all wanted Bogo and Scandella gone before this season and now they are.

[dudacek]

Other than playing Bogosian every game and letting Scandella walk for nothing I can’t think of a worse way those assets could have been handled.

[Curt]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Other than playing Bogosian every game and letting Scandella walk for nothing I can’t think of a worse way those assets could have been handled.

What would you have done if you (1) couldn’t get more than a 4th for Scandella and (2) couldn’t find anyone interested in trading for a Bogo?

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Other than playing Bogosian every game and letting Scandella walk for nothing I can’t think of a worse way those assets could have been handled.

Bogo wasn’t tradeable without playing him.  Unfortunately his play proved he isn’t an NHL player anymore.  Did he play him to much? Maybe but he is a 12 year vet and deserves some benefit of the doubt.  
 

I am also a little disappointed in the return for Scandella, but because of injuries up front Jbot had to do something, but if you think a 3rd pairing UFA D making 4 mill was going to get a big offer I think your sadly mistaken.

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Based on what?  Even if we move on from Risto or Montour, we still have Dahlin, Jokiharju, Miller, McCabe, Pilut and Borgen.

This smacks of the same pie-in-the-sky projection we were making for Mittelstadt two years ago.

PIlut is 24 and hasn’t proven himself as an NHL defenceman yet. Borgen is 23 and is further behind.

We expect Dahlin and Jokiharju to be Keith and HJalmarsson going forward, but right now they are Miller and Pysyk. Take Montour or Risto out of that group and they are a below average NHL defence core.

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This smacks of the same pie-in-the-sky projection we were making for Mittelstadt two years ago.

PIlut is 24 and hasn’t proven himself as an NHL defenceman yet. Borgen is 23 and is further behind.

We expect Dahlin and Jokiharju to be Keith and HJalmarsson going forward, but right now they are Miller and Pysyk. Take Montour or Risto out of that group and they are a below average NHL defence core.

That’s not a good analogy at all.  Miller is on this team and he isn’t close to being as good as Dahlin on either end of the ice.  Also Joker is a better player right now then Pysyk has ever been. It is fair to say both guys need to continue to grow before they are as good as a Karlsson or Hjarmlsson but they are significantly better then your straw men.

[Curt]

16 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This smacks of the same pie-in-the-sky projection we were making for Mittelstadt two years ago.

PIlut is 24 and hasn’t proven himself as an NHL defenceman yet. Borgen is 23 and is further behind.

We expect Dahlin and Jokiharju to be Keith and HJalmarsson going forward, but right now they are Miller and Pysyk. Take Montour or Risto out of that group and they are a below average NHL defence core.

You think that trading Risto or Montour would create a hole in the top-4.  Ok, that’s a defensible opinion and a debate that could be had.

However, Scandella and Bogo (that’s what this is about, right?) have absolutely nothing to do with that.  Neither of them is an answer to a hole in the top-4 and neither of them was going to return a good C in a trade, as a substitute for trading Risto/Montour.

So, I think that’s why GA and I are sort of confused about what you are trying to get at.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Curt

[Taro T]

46 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I’m talking asset management.

We had two veteran NHL defencemen that ideally would have been used to either

a) fill a roster hole created by a Risto trade to keep us competitive this season while the kids grew, or

b) were shipped off to another team with blueline needs for picks.

Or, preferably, both.

Instead, we got Bogo’s cap hit handcuffing us from other moves, Colin Miller sitting in the press box, and a short-term replacement for Vlad Sobotka (when we already had that in Curtis Lazar)

Sure Bogosian’s poor play was a factor, but all the depth Botterill acquired this summer did nothing for our team on the ice this year and has been translated into nothing that might help us in the future.

Like Weave says, it’s hard to believe that hand could not have been played better. Botterill sat on his hands and squandered assets.

Botterill didn't squander assets, he squandered AN asset.  Scandella might have been a part of a bigger package to bring in more of what the Sabres actually need - top 6 talent rather than adding to what they already have in spades - bottom 6 talent.

Miller could definitely have helped to fill in a gap created by trading Ristolainen or Montour (or, if somebody was specifically looking for PP help from the D, perhaps even sparing those 2 better players) should either have been the centerpiece for a true 2C; but he's still under contract next year, seems to fit into at least their intermediate range plans, and was picked up before long range plan guy, Jokiharju, showed himself ready to help now.  So, that isn't egregious bad asset management; it's more frustrating because it was a side effect of not getting a 2nd liner (which is still friggin' maddening), but he's still an asset moving forward.

Bogosian has in no way shape or form been an asset this season.  To say his demotion is asset mismanagement overlooks the fact that at his contract his play since returning from this surgery makes him a negative asset at most.  And, they couldn't even buy him out because adding 1/3 of his salary to Dahlin & Olofsson bonuses earned this year but due next year due to no cap space ends up taking ~$5MM from next year's cap.  That's a high end 3rd liner/ poor man's 2nd liner that they now can't afford.  Buying him out wasn't happening.

[dudacek]

28 minutes ago, Curt said:

What would you have done if you (1) couldn’t get more than a 4th for Scandella and (2) couldn’t find anyone interested in trading for a Bogo?

In hindsight?

We could have played Scandella and used the assets we used to get Colin Miller to get Burakovsky 

Or the assets we used to get Brandon Montour to get JT Miller

Or Montour himself to get Nazem Kadri

This year’s Scandella at the deadline likely gets more than a 4th (smaller cap hit, better market) and even a 4th is likely to have a better long-term benefit to the franchise than Frolik

If Bogo was the lost cause you think, then steps should have been taken immediately to minimize his impact on the roster. For example, he could have been sent to Rochester on a conditioning stint and waived when he showed how much his play had slipped, so his cap burden was minimized and he never banished Colin Miller to the press box.

Death by a thousand cuts.

Its not about Bogosian and Scandella themselves so much as where Botterill chose to spend his assets and the return he got for them.  He built up an embarrassment of riches on defence and failed to profit from it.

Edited February 16, 2020 by dudacek

[Stoner]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Related, has anyone else noticed how Botterill has slowly squandered our defence depth? If we don’t move Frolik by the deadline, Scandella and Bogosian together will have netted us a big, fat nothing.

If Montour or Risto goes for a centre we’re back to having a big hole to fill in our top four again.

I heard inkman can fill it.

[Randall Flagg]

Hadn't really seen it the way dudacek put it, but an interesting point of view. I think I'd have been completely fine if we had flipped Scandella for a better player than Frolik (net result)

 

[Curt]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

In hindsight?

We could have played Scandella and used the assets we used to get Colin Miller to get Burakovsky 

Or the assets we used to get Brandon Montour to get JT Miller

Or Montour himself to get Nazem Kadri

This year’s Scandella at the deadline likely gets more than a 4th (smaller cap hit, better market) and even a 4th is likely to have a better long-term benefit time the franchise than Frolik

If Bogo was the lost cause you think, then steps should have been taken immediately to minimize his impact on the roster. For example, he could have been sent to Rochester on a conditioning stint and waived when he showed how much his play had slipped, so his cap burden was minimized and he never banished Colin Miller to the press box.

Death by a thousand cuts.

Its not about Bogosian and Scandella themselves so much as where Botterill chose to spend his assets and the return he got for them.  

I think you might be using hindsight too much to your advantage.  I’m not saying that Botterill has handled everything perfectly, but when he traded for Montour, he didn’t know he would get the chance to acquire Miller and Joki.  When he traded for Miller, he didn’t know that he was later going to be able to trade Nylander for Joki.  When he acquire Joki, he didn’t know that he would play so well.

We don’t know that Scandella at the deadline gets more than a 4th.  I can’t imagine it would be much more.  Imagine how much we could skewer him if he sat on his hands until the deadline, then couldn’t move Scandella.

Bogo was coming back from a big surgery.  They didn’t know that he was a lost cause before he started playing.  If he had shown he could still play a little, maybe Botterill could have gotten something for him.  But you have to play him and let him show what he has.  He only played 19 games.  Should he have only played 10?  Maybe, but it’s easier to say with hindsight.

It seems like you are mostly saying that Botterill did everything either too soon, or not soon enough and using what we know in hindsight to justify it.  

[dudacek]

I’m saying Botterill mis-spent his assets on players he either didn’t need, or failed to flip.

It’s his job to build a cohesive team and he didn’t.

Everyone knew in July that we had too many defencemen and not enough good forwards.

Here we are in February and we no longer have too many defencemen, but we still don’t have enough good forwards.

Call it what you want, but to me that adds up to squandered assets.

[Taro T]

20 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I’m saying Botterill mis-spent his assets on players he either didn’t need, or failed to flip.

It’s his job to build a cohesive team and he didn’t.

Everyone knew in July that we had too many defencemen and not enough good forwards.

Here we are in February and we no longer have too many defencemen, but we still don’t have enough good forwards.

Call it what you want, but to me that adds up to squandered assets.

ONE defenseman moved converted them from having too many to either just right or not enough?

Yes, we all wanted to see a D-man moved in a bigger package, and there is still a glaring hole in the top 6 (technically 2 holes, but Johansson fills the 2nd RW slot adequately, so we'll call it 1); but Bogosian not being converted into a useful asset this season is less on Botterill and more on GMs like Craig Button or Gord Stellick being fairly rare these days.  There literally was no GM that would take him & his salary for a $500 waiver fee.

[Curt]

32 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I’m saying Botterill mis-spent his assets on players he either didn’t need, or failed to flip.

It’s his job to build a cohesive team and he didn’t.

Everyone knew in July that we had too many defencemen and not enough good forwards.

Here we are in February and we no longer have too many defencemen, but we still don’t have enough good forwards.

Call it what you want, but to me that adds up to squandered assets.

I disagree.  Buffalo still has an excess of D, which could be used in a trade to acquire an impactful forward.  Particularly on the right side.

Moving on from Scandella and Bogo did not change that, and they were never going to be the pieces that were used to acquire the forward Buffalo needs.

It seems like you are saying, now that Bogo and Scandella are gone, Buffalo can’t use a D to acquire a F.  I strongly disagree with that.

If you want to criticize Botterill for not acquiring a good forward, I am totally on board with that and share in the feeling.  However, it has nothing to do with Scandella and Bogo.

[LTS]

52 minutes ago, dudacek said:

In hindsight?

We could have played Scandella and used the assets we used to get Colin Miller to get Burakovsky 

Or the assets we used to get Brandon Montour to get JT Miller

Or Montour himself to get Nazem Kadri

This year’s Scandella at the deadline likely gets more than a 4th (smaller cap hit, better market) and even a 4th is likely to have a better long-term benefit to the franchise than Frolik

If Bogo was the lost cause you think, then steps should have been taken immediately to minimize his impact on the roster. For example, he could have been sent to Rochester on a conditioning stint and waived when he showed how much his play had slipped, so his cap burden was minimized and he never banished Colin Miller to the press box.

Death by a thousand cuts.

Its not about Bogosian and Scandella themselves so much as where Botterill chose to spend his assets and the return he got for them.  He built up an embarrassment of riches on defence and failed to profit from it.

Hindsight is dangerous.  Let's run through your scenarios.

The Avs traded a 2020 2nd and 3rd plus an AHL forward for Burkovsky.
The Sabres traded a 2021 2nd and a 2022 5th for Miller.

Ostensibly you are saying the Sabres should have traded their 2020 2nd and 3rd.  The 2020 3rd they don't have because they used that to get Jeff Skinner. The same 3rd round pick people now want back so the Sabres can offer sheet Cirelli?  Which, if they traded their 2020 2nd round pick would be even harder to do.

Let's look at JT Miller (I've broken this one down before)

Vancouver traded a conditional 2020 first, a 2019 third, and a goalie.
Buffalo traded a 2019 first, and Brendan Guhle.

The timing here matters as well as this trade occurred well before JT Miller was on the market. So, in hindsight, you'd be saying Botterill should not have made a move back then because those assets, in theory, could be used to get something a few months later.  Nevermind, and I argued why, Tampa didn't care about a 2019 1st round pick.

Or Montour to get Kadri

Avs traded Barrie, Kerfoot, and a 2020 6th and retained salary 

Buffalo would have traded Montour and whom? and retained salary to get Kadri?  And he would help how?

You believe Scandella at the deadline gets more than a 4th but Scandella doesn't get more than a 4th when the team acquiring him does so long before the deadline?  I don't think that's how it works.  Scandella, before the deadline, was ONLY worth a 4th, and he'd be worth less later.  And that 4th only gets you Frolik... that's it.

The Sabres don't have an embarassment of riches on defense, they just have a lot of defense.  Ristolainen's value before this season was crap.  He's improved it quite a bit I would think and perhaps he gets moved, but it might not be during the season because those big moves don't usually happen until the off-season.  Montour?  Hard to say, you could move him.  You are then banking on Jokiharju stepping up more.. if that doesn't happen then you get fans criticizing the GM for putting faith in a D player when he clearly should have known he would suck (just like talking about Bogo).

Hindsight is dangerous... because you have to remove yourself and the knowledge you have now to understand the knowledge you had at the time.  By your logic on the JT Miller trade, perhaps Botterill is holding onto his assets now so he can make a JT Miller like trade in the off-season. 

 

 

[dudacek]

14 minutes ago, LTS said:

Hindsight is dangerous.  Let's run through your scenarios.

The Avs traded a 2020 2nd and 3rd plus an AHL forward for Burkovsky.
The Sabres traded a 2021 2nd and a 2022 5th for Miller.

Ostensibly you are saying the Sabres should have traded their 2020 2nd and 3rd.  The 2020 3rd they don't have because they used that to get Jeff Skinner. The same 3rd round pick people now want back so the Sabres can offer sheet Cirelli?  Which, if they traded their 2020 2nd round pick would be even harder to do.

Let's look at JT Miller (I've broken this one down before)

Vancouver traded a conditional 2020 first, a 2019 third, and a goalie.
Buffalo traded a 2019 first, and Brendan Guhle.

The timing here matters as well as this trade occurred well before JT Miller was on the market. So, in hindsight, you'd be saying Botterill should not have made a move back then because those assets, in theory, could be used to get something a few months later.  Nevermind, and I argued why, Tampa didn't care about a 2019 1st round pick.

Or Montour to get Kadri

Avs traded Barrie, Kerfoot, and a 2020 6th and retained salary 

Buffalo would have traded Montour and whom? and retained salary to get Kadri?  And he would help how?

You believe Scandella at the deadline gets more than a 4th but Scandella doesn't get more than a 4th when the team acquiring him does so long before the deadline?  I don't think that's how it works.  Scandella, before the deadline, was ONLY worth a 4th, and he'd be worth less later.  And that 4th only gets you Frolik... that's it.

The Sabres don't have an embarassment of riches on defense, they just have a lot of defense.  Ristolainen's value before this season was crap.  He's improved it quite a bit I would think and perhaps he gets moved, but it might not be during the season because those big moves don't usually happen until the off-season.  Montour?  Hard to say, you could move him.  You are then banking on Jokiharju stepping up more.. if that doesn't happen then you get fans criticizing the GM for putting faith in a D player when he clearly should have known he would suck (just like talking about Bogo).

Hindsight is dangerous... because you have to remove yourself and the knowledge you have now to understand the knowledge you had at the time.  By your logic on the JT Miller trade, perhaps Botterill is holding onto his assets now so he can make a JT Miller like trade in the off-season. 

 

 

DOn't buy this at all. Just because you can make a plausible case for saving every tree, doesn't mean you should ignore the forest.

Cited those players because we know they were available at prices the Sabres were able to pay.

What is the plan? How do you justify trading a 2nd rounder for a player to sit in the press box 16 times when you have a guy already on your roster (Scandella) who can apparently do that job already, and then you dump that guy for a 4th line forward? Why not keep Scandella and use the 2nd on a forward?

Taken individually Botterill's moves can be justified. As a whole, there is an obvious opportunity cost.

[Kruppstahl]

John Vogl does a nice job of summarizing Bogosian's Sabres career.

And folks are wondering why  the rebuild, or rebuild of the rebuild isn't working.  

?

 

 

[LTS]

44 minutes ago, dudacek said:

DOn't buy this at all. Just because you can make a plausible case for saving every tree, doesn't mean you should ignore the forest.

Cited those players because we know they were available at prices the Sabres were able to pay.

What is the plan? How do you justify trading a 2nd rounder for a player to sit in the press box 16 times when you have a guy already on your roster (Scandella) who can apparently do that job already, and then you dump that guy for a 4th line forward? Why not keep Scandella and use the 2nd on a forward?

Taken individually Botterill's moves can be justified. As a whole, there is an obvious opportunity cost.

There's always opportunity cost.  It goes both ways.  You are playing with the power of hindsight. There are so many factors that come into play.  The only people who know what could have been done and what wasn't done are those involved.

When Botterill acquired Miller perhaps he thought he would be able to move one of the other defense?  But then it didn't happen.  So now you have more defense than you need and as a result you have to deal with that.  Now you have to play Bogosian and you hope he shows some signs of life so you can make a move, but he doesn't.  Now you are stuck with him. I could easily justify Miller by saying that you acquire an asset whose value will be realized when you move Ristolainen.  Until then, you have to have some level of roster flexibility and sometimes players have to sit.

There are all kinds of possibilities, but in the world of the NHL trades that only happened within the past year might not always realize their full value until a few seasons later. Then you look at what transpired and perhaps you can make some guesses as to what and wasn't possible or what a GM was trying to do.

The Sabres might have been able to make the moves you made.  It might have led to success. It also would have opened up any number of other potential negative outcomes in the future. It might not have.  That's the way it goes.  I think there's reasonable counter points so that nothing should be considered a slam dunk in either direction.

 

[inkman]

Just now, Kruppstahl said:

John Vogl does a nice job of summarizing Bogosian's Sabres career.

And folks are wondering why  the rebuild, or rebuild of the rebuild isn't working.  

?

 

 

I guess.  He was just a throw in with Evander.  

[darksabre]

4 minutes ago, inkman said:

I guess.  He was just a throw in with Evander.  

This is definitely not true. GMTM saw him as a top pair defenseman. 

[dudacek]

4 minutes ago, LTS said:

There's always opportunity cost.  It goes both ways.  You are playing with the power of hindsight. There are so many factors that come into play.  The only people who know what could have been done and what wasn't done are those involved.

When Botterill acquired Miller perhaps he thought he would be able to move one of the other defense?  But then it didn't happen.  So now you have more defense than you need and as a result you have to deal with that.  Now you have to play Bogosian and you hope he shows some signs of life so you can make a move, but he doesn't.  Now you are stuck with him. I could easily justify Miller by saying that you acquire an asset whose value will be realized when you move Ristolainen.  Until then, you have to have some level of roster flexibility and sometimes players have to sit.

There are all kinds of possibilities, but in the world of the NHL trades that only happened within the past year might not always realize their full value until a few seasons later. Then you look at what transpired and perhaps you can make some guesses as to what and wasn't possible or what a GM was trying to do.

The Sabres might have been able to make the moves you made.  It might have led to success. It also would have opened up any number of other potential negative outcomes in the future. It might not have.  That's the way it goes.  I think there's reasonable counter points so that nothing should be considered a slam dunk in either direction.

 

It's pro sports, you are judged on your record. It would have worked if only... doesn't count.

You make a plan, you execute it, you adjust on the fly as the unexpected occurs.

And you are accountable for the results.

2 minutes ago, darksabre said:

This is definitely not true. GMTM saw him as a top pair defenseman. 

Absolutely. Murray always had this smug undertone that he traded a handful of prospects for Kane and stole a "real man" in Bogo for "that *****" Myers.