Did Lafontaine hire GMTM to fail?

[Stoner]

Just now, TrueBlueGED said:

It's certainly possible that Wawrow's source told him that, but I have a hard time believing reality is that simple. 

What source? John's tweet makes him look like JAG on the Internet.

[TrueBlueGED]

7 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

What source? John's tweet makes him look like JAG on the Internet.

Sure, but his reputation would suggest he isn't simply flinging poop at the wall. 

[Wyldnwoody44]

So this looks bad on pegula, again? 

All these theories can run rampant because we've been nothing short of terrible for a decade. 

If we're winning I don't think any of these tweets, sources, etc really cause so much discussion. 

[triumph_communes]

Didn't he quit immediately after we sold off the remaining of our talent for picks?  Theory doesn't jive with the timeline.  Murray didn't waste all of our assets until well after Patty left.

[nfreeman]

I'd like to put the brakes on the "Wawrow is highly credible and thus there must be something to this tweet" assumption.

Wawrow's occasional posts on this board have pretty often been weird and irrational -- which is of a piece, IMHO, with the theory that PLF hired TM with the goal of TM failing and PLF then taking over.

[WildCard]

Just now, nfreeman said:

I'd like to put the brakes on the "Wawrow is highly credible and thus there must be something to this tweet" assumption.

Wawrow's occasional posts on this board have pretty often been weird and irrational -- which is of a piece, IMHO, with the theory that PLF hired TM with the goal of TM failing and PLF then taking over.

Yeah idk where that came form either. I feel like we constantly dismiss his trade talks because they're not accurate

[Broken Ankles]

It makes no sense whatsoever.  Tim Murray reported in to PLT and it was assumed that PLT would be involved in all aspects of what a GM does (UFA signings, trades, etc).  PLT was not close to what was happening in the amateur leagues and TM was seen as a scouting guru.   PLT hired TM because he was lacking and felt TM could improve this shortcoming in the scouting department.  I can see where you hope your supervisor fails at something, so you can move up one rung, but not the other way around. Patty was a defacto GM at the time he left.   Whatever disagreements he had were at a level higher than him, not lower. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Broken Ankles

[Ruff Around The Edges]

Why would LaFontaine hire GMTM to fail when he could have just named himself the GM right from the beginning?

[erickompositör72]

2 minutes ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

Why would LaFontaine hire GMTM to fail when he could have just named himself the GM right from the beginning?

Only way it could make sense is if he wanted Murray to build a scouting dept/prepare for the draft (PLF's aforementioned blind spots), and then when all those things are in place, dismiss Murray and take over.

Not saying I think this is the case, but under the original scenario, could make sense.

[sabresparaavida]

25 minutes ago, WildCard said:

Yeah idk where that came form either. I feel like we constantly dismiss his trade talks because they're not accurate

While I don't necessarily think that what Wawrow is saying is true, I would say there is a difference between reporting possible trades and something that happened in the past. If I say there are trade talks of X player for Y player, there is the reasonable excuse of well, one team wanted an additional 3rd, and the other didn't want to give that up. But with this, he is reporting something that has happened(Or didn't). If I were a sports reporter, this would be something I would be more cautious to report, as opposed to a trade rumor. 

15 minutes ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

Why would LaFontaine hire GMTM to fail when he could have just named himself the GM right from the beginning?

If TM were to fail, and then LaFontaine was average, we would be a lot happier with him than if LaFontaine was just average to start.

[That Aud Smell]

53 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I'd like to put the brakes on the "Wawrow is highly credible and thus there must be something to this tweet" assumption.

Wawrow's occasional posts on this board have pretty often been weird and irrational -- which is of a piece, IMHO, with the theory that PLF hired TM with the goal of TM failing and PLF then taking over.

To borrow a self-styled Wawrowism: Hmmm.

There have been times when I've gotten the sense that Wawrow may, from time to time, get loose (whether through imbibing, inhaling, or maybe just some transcendental meditation sh1t), and then let fly with some good ol' fashioned internet poop flinging. 

[shrader]

There's no better way to start off your first ever job in an industry by intentionally doing it poorly.  If he actually did that, he's right where he belongs now, no longer working in that industry.

Now some might respond and say he has a job with the NHL, but that's not the team management industry he had tried to get into.

[Pimlach]

This thread is nuts.  

Pat would not hire someone to fail while “training to be GM” from the guy allegedly working for him who he allegedly hired to failed.    

Here is how I see it.  

Terry Pegula was way over his head as evidenced by hiring Pat LaFontaine, instead of an experienced NHL hockey executive with a track record of successfully rebuilding a team.  He also made numerous tactical errors that good leaders don’t normally make but that is for another time.  
Pat LaFontaine was way over his head as evidenced by hiring both Murray and Nolan, and even more so by not understanding his role when he agreed to take the job.  
Murray was over his head as evidenced by the result of job he did.  No one is knocking his door down.  
Nolan was pretty much a victim of all the chaos but the reality of the situation is that he was an uninspired choice for this task. 
 

 

[SABRES 0311]

So PLF is part of the deep state. He hired GMTM to fail in order to pursue world domination. 

[Andrew Amerk]

The speculation over such a random, meaningless tweet, about an event that occurred almost 6 years ago, is evidence of how badly our season is going. 

[Darryl Shannon's +/-]

6 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Didn't he quit immediately after we sold off the remaining of our talent for picks?  Theory doesn't jive with the timeline.  Murray didn't waste all of our assets until well after Patty left.

Quit or was fired. I believe the latter. This Wawrow tweet doesn't pass the sniff test. It makes Pat look worse if true.   Hiring anyone with the express purpose of furthering your own agenda is the worst kind of leadership.  

For the hire a president and get out of the way sentiment....this is the danger that exists with that line of thought. I still think it's the direction we need, but you must select the right person.

[PerreaultForever]

Like most of you, I felt that whole situation never really made sense and there are things that happened that we will never know. I really think this tweet is nonsense and the simple explanation is probably all it was. He didn't see eye to eye with Pegula and was either given the option to resign or be fired and took it, or he simply resigned cause he wanted no part of it. 

[shrader]

14 hours ago, Pimlach said:

This thread is nuts.  

Pat would not hire someone to fail while “training to be GM” from the guy allegedly working for him who he allegedly hired to failed.    

Here is how I see it.  

Terry Pegula was way over his head as evidenced by hiring Pat LaFontaine, instead of an experienced NHL hockey executive with a track record of successfully rebuilding a team.  He also made numerous tactical errors that good leaders don’t normally make but that is for another time.  
Pat LaFontaine was way over his head as evidenced by hiring both Murray and Nolan, and even more so by not understanding his role when he agreed to take the job.  
Murray was over his head as evidenced by the result of job he did.  No one is knocking his door down.  
Nolan was pretty much a victim of all the chaos but the reality of the situation is that he was an uninspired choice for this task. 
 

 

Let's not forget that Craig Patrick was also brought in as an advisor shortly after LaFontaine was hired.  He certainly would qualify as the seasoned exec.  I forget the exact timing of each some other hirings, but the hiring of LaFontaine was not done in a vaccuum.

The real question is, after LaFontaine spurned them, why did they drastically change course after that and have never adjusted since.

Edited February 11, 2020 by shrader

[DarthEbriate]

13 hours ago, Andrew Amerk said:

The speculation over such a random, meaningless tweet, about an event that occurred almost 6 years ago, is evidence of how badly our season is going. 

I've kept myself entertained by imagining PLF in robes, saying sports jargon nonsense in a Palpatine voice. Things like:

"All part of the plan."   "On to Cincinnati Coruscant." and "Trust the process."

[Stoner]

3 hours ago, shrader said:

Let's not forget that Craig Patrick was also brought in as an advisor shortly after LaFontaine was hired.  He certainly would qualify as the seasoned exec.  I forget the exact timing of each some other hirings, but the hiring of LaFontaine was not done in a vaccuum.

The real question is, after LaFontaine spurned them, why did they drastically change course after that and have never adjusted since.

Patrick came in with Murray, on January 14, 2014. (Patty and Ted arrived in mid-November.) I've never thought too much about it, but now I wonder if Patrick was truly a LaFontaine hire or if the hire was forced on him. If it was forced, was it because Patty had shown he wasn't up to the job or was it because Patty was swinging his anti-tank junk around and Terry wanted another Pittsburgher around? Was the Patrick hire the beginning of the end of LaFontaine, who left on March 1?

FWIW, I've always figured LaFontaine came in thinking he had real power but underestimated the presence of Pens people Black and Sawyer and Benson and Terry's flat management structure — and no emperors or monopolies on hockey IQ! Battista was one more, though he was a PSU guy (probably a Pens guy at heart). Remember that Battista!™ accompanied Patty to Ottawa to interview Murray, so what does that tell you? The tension was between the pro- and anti-tankers. I'm guessing GMTM was an anti-tanker at first before recognizing the lay of the land and the reality that he was in his first GM job. I recall Tim saying that his uncle gave him this bit of advice: "Everybody has a boss and your boss is the owner."

GMTM was a dutiful soldier, but as soon as the tank was complete, he tried to put it behind him and the franchise in very short order.

Of course no one knows what the truth is. Well, some do, but they signed NDAs apparently. Frustrating for us fans, but fun, I suppose.

Edited February 11, 2020 by PASabreFan

[matter2003]

17 hours ago, Pimlach said:

This thread is nuts.  

Pat would not hire someone to fail while “training to be GM” from the guy allegedly working for him who he allegedly hired to failed.    

Here is how I see it.  

Terry Pegula was way over his head as evidenced by hiring Pat LaFontaine, instead of an experienced NHL hockey executive with a track record of successfully rebuilding a team.  He also made numerous tactical errors that good leaders don’t normally make but that is for another time.  
Pat LaFontaine was way over his head as evidenced by hiring both Murray and Nolan, and even more so by not understanding his role when he agreed to take the job.  
Murray was over his head as evidenced by the result of job he did.  No one is knocking his door down.  
Nolan was pretty much a victim of all the chaos but the reality of the situation is that he was an uninspired choice for this task. 
 

 

I mean look at the hirings of Chris Drury and Steve Yzerman...were they experienced front office hockey people or were they just good players who people thought would likely be qualified to transition into it?

Edited February 11, 2020 by matter2003

[shrader]

26 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

I mean look at the hirings of Chris Drury and Steve Yzerman...were they experienced front office hockey people or were they just good players who people thought would likely be qualified to transition into it?

I haven't paid much attention to Drury's track, but Yzerman was thrown into an ideal situation.  He got to sit back for multiple years behind a proven management mind in Holland.  I don't know LaFontaine's path either, so I can't really say how much time he had learning from experience.  What I do know is that he had a similar position with the Islanders before coming to Buffalo and also bailed on it very quickly.  Maybe that's just a coincidence, but it's definitely a red flag* to me, especially since he hasn't had a job with another team since.

*Maybe it's a case where he recognized two inept ownerships.  Maybe it's an indication about LaFontaine himself... I'm willing to consider both possibilities.

[Eleven]

Ah, a Battista sighting.  The Comet Ping Pong of Sabrespace.  How I have missed him.

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Patrick came in with Murray, on January 14, 2014. (Patty and Ted arrived in mid-November.) I've never thought too much about it, but now I wonder if Patrick was truly a LaFontaine hire or if the hire was forced on him. If it was forced, was it because Patty had shown he wasn't up to the job or was it because Patty was swinging his anti-tank junk around and Terry wanted another Pittsburgher around? Was the Patrick hire the beginning of the end of LaFontaine, who left on March 1?

FWIW, I've always figured LaFontaine came in thinking he had real power but underestimated the presence of Pens people Black and Sawyer and Benson and Terry's flat management structure — and no emperors or monopolies on hockey IQ! Battista was one more, though he was a PSU guy (probably a Pens guy at heart). Remember that Battista!™ accompanied Patty to Ottawa to interview Murray, so what does that tell you? The tension was between the pro- and anti-tankers. I'm guessing GMTM was an anti-tanker at first before recognizing the lay of the land and the reality that he was in his first GM job. I recall Tim saying that his uncle gave him this bit of advice: "Everybody has a boss and your boss is the owner."

GMTM was a dutiful soldier, but as soon as the tank was complete, he tried to put it behind him and the franchise in very short order.

Of course no one knows what the truth is. Well, some do, but they signed NDAs apparently. Frustrating for us fans, but fun, I suppose.

I don't think this is right. I'm almost positive that Patrick was part of the Lafontaine/Nolan reveal and that Lafontaine had a history with Patrick.

EDIT: My apologies. You are right and my memory wrong.

https://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/sabres-introduce-tim-murray-as-new-gm-craig-patrick-as-advisor/

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by dudacek

[Stoner]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I don't think this is right. I'm almost positive that Patrick was part of the Lafontaine/Nolan reveal and that Lafontaine had a history with Patrick.

EDIT: My apologies. You are right and my memory wrong.

https://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/sabres-introduce-tim-murray-as-new-gm-craig-patrick-as-advisor/

 

It's OK. I have to look it up EVERY SINGLE TIME.