Is there a Rasmus Dahlin Blockbuster trade to be had?

[OhMyDahlin]

One problem...do we honestly trust Jason freaking Botterill to get anything close to correct value for a player like Rasmus Dahlin?

Hell no...the guy is absolutely terrible.

[Scottysabres]

18 minutes ago, OhMyDahlin said:

One problem...do we honestly trust Jason freaking Botterill to get anything close to correct value for a player like Rasmus Dahlin?

Hell no...the guy is absolutely terrible.

Came to post some humor in line with this, but, you did a fine job ?

[inkman]

21 minutes ago, OhMyDahlin said:

One problem...do we honestly trust Jason freaking Botterill to get anything close to correct value for a player like Rasmus Dahlin?

Hell no...the guy is absolutely terrible.

 

2 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

Came to post some humor in line with this, but, you did a fine job ?

Do people read the whole thread?  I said he needs to be fired first.  

[Scottysabres]

6 minutes ago, inkman said:

 

Do people read the whole thread?  I said he needs to be fired first.  

Sorry Ink, I didn't. My bad...…….

[Eleven]

2 hours ago, inkman said:

You'd be getting back a franchise changing deal.  Think Lindros.  The Dique got #1C forsbeg, top pairing D in Duschene and Hoffman, #3C in Ricci and a #1 goalie.  Sign me up. 

Filly also got the best player in the deal.  Forsberg > Lindros all day long.

Again, if the value is there, fine, but I don't have confidence that Botterill can evaluate well.  If--as you mention earlier--another GM is doing the trading on Buffalo's behalf, I'd be more confident.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, inkman said:

Except Jack is at a MVP level now.  Moving him and keeping Dahlin would just set you back 5 years. 

Not if you get an MVP level return - and/or Jack is the cultural problem. I'm not saying he is, but something is rotten in this team. Something does in fact seem to poison the well. We were a bad team when they tanked, but the failure to move forward is mindboggling and so the explanation has to be something deeper or unexpected.

 

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I'd trade anybody.

But the hardest thing to acquire is a legitimate star and the team that gets the best player almost always wins the deal.

The Lindros deal is a failure for the Avs if Forsberg wasnt coming back.

Fair, but Forsberg was part of the deal and as I remember it he was the main key to the deal. 

[Skibum]

I'd be all for it if the return was big. I like Dahlin, but I don't see the generational talent level that would make him untouchable. Eichel flashed much more potential at the same stage. There is also a lot of depth on D in the organization at the moment, whereas the forward situation is absolutely grim.

 

[Curt]

Holy crap!  You mean to tell me that the Nordiques traded Lindros and won a Cup 5 years later after the team relocated into another country halfway across the continent.

Where do we sign up for this super awesome future of the Austin, TX Sabres?

[Scottysabres]

1 minute ago, Curt said:

Holy crap!  You mean to tell me that the Nordiques traded Lindros and won a Cup 5 years later after the team relocated into another country halfway across the continent.

Where do we sign up for this super awesome future of the Austin, TX Sabres?

Actually, Austin TX is quite beautiful, so is San Antonio TX, I would accept a move to either and be more than happy to follow them there ?

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Not if you get an MVP level return - and/or Jack is the cultural problem. I'm not saying he is, but something is rotten in this team. Something does in fact seem to poison the well. We were a bad team when they tanked, but the failure to move forward is mindboggling and so the explanation has to be something deeper or unexpected.

I just can't get on board with this.

The reset button was hit on this franchise less than three years ago and they have yet to acquire or develop enough good players from that reset.

[Taro T]

24 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I just can't get on board with this.

The reset button was hit on this franchise less than three years ago and they have yet to acquire or develop enough good players from that reset.

Pretty much.  They completely switched gears from playing a large, heavy forecheck scheme to a fast / skilled scheme and collecting players that fit those models when they swapped GM's.  A lot of guys they had, no longer fit with the team's direction and they were starting from scratch again building the pipeline.

On top of that, they dumped a prototype #2C for peanuts.

The D is solid; they have 4 - 5 top 6 F pieces.  (Johansson isn't quite top 6, but if hd had a C that was, he'd not be out of place.)  They have a useful checking line.

The goaltending needs an upgrade.  Ideally, a better starter, but at minimum a legit backup.

Which leaves a mess at 3rd scoring line, but there's a lot of pieces that could be close if they either had 1 more high end 3rd liner or if the 2nd line were fixed and resultingly the team had 3 good lines.  Either way, whether through an upgrade of talent there or via a downgrade in how much that line plays / how difficult their assignments are, or both; that line could be useful.

Add in an offer to Bob Wood to be the associate head coach (or whatever title allows him effectively a lateral move) and the PP is magically fixed.  Personally, would like to see Smith gone too.

They really are that close to being competitive (even with things being as dark as they seemed last night) and as the youth reaches their prime, they don't need many tweaks beyond that to be in the conversation at the top though they will still need more tweaks.

 

[Tondas]

I don't think the Avs would trade Makar for Dahlin straight up, let alone we get something more.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Tondas

[darksabre]

33 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Pretty much.  They completely switched gears from playing a large, heavy forecheck scheme to a fast / skilled scheme and collecting players that fit those models when they swapped GM's.  A lot of guys they had, no longer fit with the team's direction and they were starting from scratch again building the pipeline.

On top of that, they dumped a prototype #2C for peanuts.

The D is solid; they have 4 - 5 top 6 F pieces.  (Johansson isn't quite top 6, but if hd had a C that was, he'd not be out of place.)  They have a useful checking line.

The goaltending needs an upgrade.  Ideally, a better starter, but at minimum a legit backup.

Which leaves a mess at 3rd scoring line, but there's a lot of pieces that could be close if they either had 1 more high end 3rd liner or if the 2nd line were fixed and resultingly the team had 3 good lines.  Either way, whether through an upgrade of talent there or via a downgrade in how much that line plays / how difficult their assignments are, or both; that line could be useful.

Add in an offer to Bob Wood to be the associate head coach (or whatever title allows him effectively a lateral move) and the PP is magically fixed.  Personally, would like to see Smith gone too.

They really are that close to being competitive (even with things being as dark as they seemed last night) and as the youth reaches their prime, they don't need many tweaks beyond that to be in the conversation at the top though they will still need more tweaks.

 

This is what is most frustrating. The team is close enough that making maybe ONE move some time between the summer and today might have made a huge difference. Add ONE player who can play on the second line and this team is better. You might lose a trade to do it, but the ROI for the team would have outweighed it.

But apparently Botterill decided that flushing this whole season down the toilet was better than paying whatever that price was to make that one move for that one player. 

[DHawerchuk10]

6 hours ago, Taro T said:

How the heck do you "take out the excuse of age?"  The kid won't turn 20 until 1/2 the league is in the playoffs.

You say he "looks like a 19/20 year old defenseman most nights."  You mean he looks like he's playing in Juniors like all but the smallest handful of defenders are playing?

He's got the 2nd most points ever for an 18 year old defenseman* and on pace for the second most ever for a teenaged defenseman*.  Unlike Turgeon and Housley, he isn't afraid to play physical (even though he's still just a kid) and he's willing to go to the "dirty areas" (which explains his concussion from earlier this year).

All of this against NHLers playing for a team that is fairly lacking on top end talent.  Imagine what he could do on Tampa.

 

* If teenage D-men that played a significant portion of time at forward are discounted, he vaults to 1st and pacing for 1st on those metrics.

How do I take away the excuse?! I simply judge the player the way he plays, as we all should.  Youthful inconsistency is one thing, but this season, he’s been generally sub par night in and night out.  I could do the mental gymnastics to delude myself into thinking all is ok, but I’m just tired of it.  Much like Myers, I don’t see a guy developing, but getting overwhelmed.

Listen, I’m not saying dump him for a 3rd rounder, but I can also be honest with myself and say I expected more, and I wouldn’t be hurt if he was dealt for a Kings ransom.  I certainly expected flashes of brilliance here and there.  And that is probably what truly concerns me, I haven’t really seen much that stands out or shifts where you could see the makings of a dominant player.

Feel free to revisit in a couple years, and point and laugh at me for being a fool who couldn’t see this in Dahlin.  I hope you can.

 

[Crusader1969]

2 hours ago, Skibum said:

I'd be all for it if the return was big. I like Dahlin, but I don't see the generational talent level that would make him untouchable. Eichel flashed much more potential at the same stage. There is also a lot of depth on D in the organization at the moment, whereas the forward situation is absolutely grim.

 

Omg, this is completely ridiculous.  He’s 19 years old!!!!! When he is 23 he will be every bit as important as Eichel is now. 

lets not forget how people questioned how good Jack was as recent as last season!!

 

 

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Wish there was a Risto trade to be had.  Too bad other teams know something.  How about a twofer with Bogo?

[Curt]

46 minutes ago, DHawerchuk10 said:

How do I take away the excuse?! I simply judge the player the way he plays, as we all should.  Youthful inconsistency is one thing, but this season, he’s been generally sub par night in and night out.  I could do the mental gymnastics to delude myself into thinking all is ok, but I’m just tired of it.  Much like Myers, I don’t see a guy developing, but getting overwhelmed.

Hmm, I saw what you are describing for the first 15-20 games this season, but not since then.  He has been much better.  I think he had some growing pains with Kreuger, who I think has really tried to not force him into a role/situations where he will be overwhelmed.

Im adding a video that shows a definite “flash of brilliance” to lighten your spirit.  I also picked this one because it highlights Dahlin keeping the puck in and handling the puck at the offensive blue line, something I thing he has done a really good job of this season.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?index=193&v=Z4qE9i58VI8&list=PLtmx7jgnGtPlPJxvATGcAwvXQvbvvwk0-

Edited January 30, 2020 by Curt

[DHawerchuk10]

3 minutes ago, Curt said:

Hmm, I saw what you are describing for the first 15-20 games this season, but not since then.  He has been much better.  I think he had some growing pains with Kreuger, who I think has really tried to not force him into a role/situations where he will be overwhelmed.

Yeah, I just don’t see it.  Perhaps the optimism has been sucked out of my soul slowly over the past decade, and I’m being overly critical and focused on shortcomings.  But when we get lucky enough to draft a supposed best d prospect since Potvin, I expect to see more immediate returns.  Again, “he’s only 19” just rings hollow with me.  Yeah, I get it, but Dahlin is supposed to be special and superior.

Folks can site statistics and metrics, and it makes for a good substantive argument, but after 40 + years of passionately following this stuff, I can’t go against my eyes and intuition.

[DHawerchuk10]

25 minutes ago, Curt said:

Hmm, I saw what you are describing for the first 15-20 games this season, but not since then.  He has been much better.  I think he had some growing pains with Kreuger, who I think has really tried to not force him into a role/situations where he will be overwhelmed.

Im adding a video that shows a definite “flash of brilliance” to lighten your spirit.  I also picked this one because it highlights Dahlin keeping the puck in and handling the puck at the offensive blue line, something I thing he has done a really good job of this season.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?index=193&v=Z4qE9i58VI8&list=PLtmx7jgnGtPlPJxvATGcAwvXQvbvvwk0-

Your video does help, as i do tend to forget some of these things.

[Curt]

15 minutes ago, DHawerchuk10 said:

Yeah, I just don’t see it.  Perhaps the optimism has been sucked out of my soul slowly over the past decade, and I’m being overly critical and focused on shortcomings.  But when we get lucky enough to draft a supposed best d prospect since Potvin, I expect to see more immediate returns.  Again, “he’s only 19” just rings hollow with me.  Yeah, I get it, but Dahlin is supposed to be special and superior.

Folks can site statistics and metrics, and it makes for a good substantive argument, but after 40 + years of passionately following this stuff, I can’t go against my eyes and intuition.

I see the mistakes, I do, and “he’s only 19” doesn’t help Buffalo win more games today, it’s true.

Im not going to site statistics, but I will say that I think that Dahlin IS special and superior......to other 19 year old defensemen.  I try to look at things within their context.  For example, when Denis Potvin was Dahlin’s age, he had yet to even play an NHL game.

[In The Buff]

7 hours ago, inkman said:

You'd be getting back a franchise changing deal.  Think Lindros.  The Dique got #1C forsbeg, top pairing D in Duschene and Hoffman, #3C in Ricci and a #1 goalie.  Sign me up. 

If all things work out & if we get back a player or players as good as those sure. But thats a lot of if's. Of course Quebec only traded Lindros because he wouldnt play for them but yeah trades can work out for sure. But i just see the same argument here for Dahlin that we made for ROR, & all it did was make our team worse.

I think fans here had unrealistic expectations on Dahlin from the get go & expected him to have like 30 goals & 60 assists a year before he hit 20 years old. But he's gonna be an outstanding player going forward & we haven't even seen the best of who he is yet. Im not worried about his next contract, nor his play. There are other pieces i'd move before moving Dahlin. Namely the players we don't want. I get the idea of moving him & if you were running a team on Xbox & could make a blockbuster trade in your favor then sure. But with real life & Jbots, i'm not a buyer to this idea at all at this point.

[Doohicksie]

13 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

Actually, Austin TX is quite beautiful, so is San Antonio TX, I would accept a move to either and be more than happy to follow them there ?

Yep.  And I'd be able to drive down for several games a year, rather than just the one game in Dallas.

I think Houston is next on the franchise list though, at least when it comes to Texas cities.

P.S.  Houston isn't beautiful.

[inkman]

8 hours ago, MillerVaive said:

If all things work out & if we get back a player or players as good as those sure. But thats a lot of if's. Of course Quebec only traded Lindros because he wouldnt play for them but yeah trades can work out for sure. But i just see the same argument here for Dahlin that we made for ROR, & all it did was make our team worse.

I think fans here had unrealistic expectations on Dahlin from the get go & expected him to have like 30 goals & 60 assists a year before he hit 20 years old. But he's gonna be an outstanding player going forward & we haven't even seen the best of who he is yet. Im not worried about his next contract, nor his play. There are other pieces i'd move before moving Dahlin. Namely the players we don't want. I get the idea of moving him & if you were running a team on Xbox & could make a blockbuster trade in your favor then sure. But with real life & Jbots, i'm not a buyer to this idea at all at this point.

I would just be happy if it looked like he could play defense.  

[Randall Flagg]

13 hours ago, dudacek said:

I just can't get on board with this.

The reset button was hit on this franchise less than three years ago and they have yet to acquire or develop enough good players from that reset.

Do you view this current time frame as inevitable/acceptable? Should they have more of these good players and potential good players than they do? Because in my view both now and at the time, we didn't even need a "reset" of the entire roster (that team was put together coming out of a tank just two years before) much less one that simply has to produce three years at the level of, or worse than, either of that team's seasons. It'd be one thing if we were seeing rapid development with a lot of young players a la 2004, or expecting a 2C, depth additions plus starting goalie all at once this offseason (which we literally just got done spending all of LAST offseason waiting for).

 I look at what we have now compared to what we had then, and what we need to be no-BS good, and the sum of our moves since 2017, and while doing so, am shocked at the rare poster who sees us as well on our way down a path of building something meaningful. We still need enough moves of significance, for acquisition or development of good forwards, that it feels like we've barely moved a net inch down this road in three years. Unless I'm supposed to expect all of Cozens, Mitts, and ~2 of the other prospect forwards to become good NHLers in their roles like this spring/fall, or a wave of Skinner-quality trades.

What's disturbing is that I get the idea that Jason truly believes at the time of making the additions that guys like Sheary and Vesey are fairly important pieces, key to establishing a playoff caliber game with a playoff caliber roster. 

Hes talking the development talk but I don't see any important pieces in areas we are lacking going through any meaningful changes over the last year and a half and so it's hard to continue the "should get there soon, we are close" talk that has been the go-to line of glass half full temperament posters for literally five straight seasons now 

[Scottysabres]

3 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Yep.  And I'd be able to drive down for several games a year, rather than just the one game in Dallas.

I think Houston is next on the franchise list though, at least when it comes to Texas cities.

P.S.  Houston isn't beautiful.

Yep Doohickie, I spent quite a bit of time in TX, the Houston-Bueamont corridor and Midland-Odessa corridor. I really enjoyed San Antonio.